1. #12321
    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    "High crimes and misdemeanors" is the bar, though. While I would agree Trump's actions with Ukraine don't fit my personal definition of "high crime", it sure as Hell shoots past "misdemeanor" in seriousness.

    Here are some examples of "misdemeanors" (C+P job):

    Class A:

    Assault causing bodily injury
    Burglary
    DUI with no bodily injury
    Resisting arrest
    Perjury
    Possession of a controlled substance
    Unlawful possession of a weapon
    Violation of a restraining order

    Class B:

    Criminal trespass
    Certain types of terroristic threats
    Certain types of assault
    Indecent exposure
    Prostitution
    Graffiti
    Theft of property worth more than $50, but less than $500

    Class C:

    Disorderly conduct
    Certain types of assault
    Reckless damage or destruction
    Leaving a child unattended in a vehicle
    Criminal trespass
    Theft of property worth less than $50
    Issuing a bad check
    Falsely reporting a missing child or person

    Trump's actions are objectively worse than a significant number of the above. "Misdemeanor" is a low bar, because the President's actions are supposed to be beyond reproach.

    As much as I overall hate the boring originality argument it is still ultimately important to understand that certain words like liberty weren't used/didn't mean exactly the same thing they do today. High crimes in this context is one of them.

    You and most others it appear are using the wrong definition of "high crime". A "high crime" is not something like super treason or mega murder which or extreme espionage which seems to be the go to for what people think it is. It specifically refers to crimes such as an abuse of office for personal gain particularly in a way that a normal person could not. It also includes severe violations of the public trust in how we expect an office to be faithfully carried out and there is absolutely no requirement that impeachable conduct under the "high crimes and misdemeanors standard" be an on the book crime like murder. It can also be grave/terrible conduct unfitting the office or a form of corruption that while not explicitly illegal give the public office holder a benefit that they are not owed soley because of their position.

    And there are very many actions that even if they're not technically crimes such as Trump hiding his transcripts on a secret server where they aren't normally stored like other diplomatic communications of the same to keep people from accessing them not for national security reason but for personal political reasons that may not be explicitly breaking any law but are definitely a "high crime and misdemeanor" because he's abusing his office and his ability to classify/declassify information not for the public good as he was sworn to act but for his own personal benefit.


    We ripped our system from the British for impeachment and they've always left impeachment deliberately open ended because you never knew how an abuse power could take place and relying on criminal statues was deemed a bad idea. In fact a huge chunk of the people the British Parliament impeached were for misconduct that technically wasn't criminal at all but it was a violation of the public trust by misusing their power. One man Attorney General Henry Yelvertorn was impeached basically because he was so bad at his job Parliament couldn't take it anymore.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
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    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  2. #12322
    https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-...hey-story.html

    Wait wait wait... Republican House Rep. Robert F. Hyde of Connecticut was the one behind what appears to be actual spying on a US ambassador and appears to have openly discussed bribing nearby businesses? So it was Hyde, directing Parnas and company to legitimately spy on Yavanovitch?

    If this is true, this is one of the biggest cases of projection I've seen in a while, and should lead to his immediate removal from office until the next election.

    Now I'm far more curious about what else Parnas has shared, because this is damning already.

  3. #12323
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    My opinion: To justify impeachment? No, I wouldn't consider it a "high crime". Censure would have been fine though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    "High crimes and misdemeanors" is the bar, though. While I would agree Trump's actions with Ukraine don't fit my personal definition of "high crime", it sure as Hell shoots past "misdemeanor" in seriousness.

    Here are some examples of "misdemeanors" (C+P job):

    Class A:

    Assault causing bodily injury
    Burglary
    DUI with no bodily injury
    Resisting arrest
    Perjury
    Possession of a controlled substance
    Unlawful possession of a weapon
    Violation of a restraining order

    Class B:

    Criminal trespass
    Certain types of terroristic threats
    Certain types of assault
    Indecent exposure
    Prostitution
    Graffiti
    Theft of property worth more than $50, but less than $500

    Class C:

    Disorderly conduct
    Certain types of assault
    Reckless damage or destruction
    Leaving a child unattended in a vehicle
    Criminal trespass
    Theft of property worth less than $50
    Issuing a bad check
    Falsely reporting a missing child or person

    Trump's actions are objectively worse than a significant number of the above. "Misdemeanor" is a low bar, because the President's actions are supposed to be beyond reproach.
    As others have noticed; the above explanation is really incorrect, since all "high crimes" means is "any abuse of the powers of the office". That could be as simple as getting a lobbyist's son to mow your lawn for free in exchange for extra consideration; that's totally 100% legal, but it's an abuse of the powers of the office, and thus impeachable (even if unlikely to be seen as serious enough to warrant removal, based on that alone).

  4. #12324
    The Insane Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-...hey-story.html

    Wait wait wait... Republican House Rep. Robert F. Hyde of Connecticut was the one behind what appears to be actual spying on a US ambassador and appears to have openly discussed bribing nearby businesses? So it was Hyde, directing Parnas and company to legitimately spy on Yavanovitch?

    If this is true, this is one of the biggest cases of projection I've seen in a while, and should lead to his immediate removal from office until the next election.

    Now I'm far more curious about what else Parnas has shared, because this is damning already.
    Someone is about to announce he's going to spend more time with his family.

  5. #12325
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-...hey-story.html

    Wait wait wait... Republican House Rep. Robert F. Hyde of Connecticut was the one behind what appears to be actual spying on a US ambassador and appears to have openly discussed bribing nearby businesses? So it was Hyde, directing Parnas and company to legitimately spy on Yavanovitch?

    If this is true, this is one of the biggest cases of projection I've seen in a while, and should lead to his immediate removal from office until the next election.

    Now I'm far more curious about what else Parnas has shared, because this is damning already.
    he's running for office, he (thankfully) is not and has not had a house seat

  6. #12326
    Quote Originally Posted by D Luniz View Post
    he's running for office, he (thankfully) is not and has not had a house seat
    Ah, I missed the "candidate" bit. In that case, he shouldn't receive a lick of RNC support, at the very least.

  7. #12327
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Edit: I guess this whole Mueller sidebar is way off topic, I'll probably just let it rest. Edge-, Endus, Elegiac, and others have at least acknowledged my points while offering their own, instead of just getting outraged and frustrated and name-calling like we've seen over the past few pages, so I appreciate that.
    And I'm sure you'll also be appreciative of that the next 50 times it happens too, but some people don't have that level of patience so I hope you can understand why they get outraged and frustrated.

  8. #12328
    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    My opinion: To justify impeachment? No, I wouldn't consider it a "high crime". Censure would have been fine though.
    Even though Bribery is specifically listed in the constitution? You don't think it is impeachment worthy? I can tell you aren't a constitutional lawyer.

  9. #12329
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    DocSavage, Texasrules, and many other posters have posted,

    "wHaTeVeR hApPeNnEd To TrUmP rUsSiA cOnSpIrAcY?!?!?!?!!!!!!"

    about 100 times now.

    Each time they are given a very thorough answer about the Mueller report and what it established.

    Each time they peace out and decide to stop talking about it when they are overwhelmed by the facts.

    Each time, 10-30 pages later, they come back and ask the same question, AGAIN.

    I realize it's important for lurkers to see the truth, but I seriously don't get how people don't tire of these shenanigans. They're constantly posting conspiracy theories about Trump when doing this, which is against the forum rules, as is the thing they are doing which is explicitly against the rules, but nobody can call it out, because THAT is also against the rules, and you can report them, but no punishment is doled because "pOlItIcAl OpInIoNs"

    At this point, aren't "wHaTeVeR hApPeNnEd To TrUmP rUsSiA cOnSpIrAcY?!?!?!?!!!!!!" posts just off topic at this point? Serious question. I realize Trump's ENTIRE team having communicated heavily with Russia for aid is tangentially related to impeachment, but in the context of just straight up denying anything happened simply because Trump was not removed over it (and thus, in their minds, is completely innocent of all crimes) it feels incredibly off-topic.
    Sealioning at its finest. It's what they do. Pretty sure they are all sockpuppet accounts anyway.

  10. #12330
    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    My opinion: To justify impeachment? No, I wouldn't consider it a "high crime". Censure would have been fine though.
    You don't think it is a high crime to withhold funds so a foreign government can go after a political rival....who happened to be a former Vice President and congressman just for personal benefit?

    What the hell is a high crime then?
    M.A.A.A. Make America Adult Again

  11. #12331
    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    "High crimes and misdemeanors" is the bar, though. While I would agree Trump's actions with Ukraine don't fit my personal definition of "high crime", it sure as Hell shoots past "misdemeanor" in seriousness.

    Here are some examples of "misdemeanors" (C+P job):

    Class A:

    Assault causing bodily injury
    Burglary
    DUI with no bodily injury
    Resisting arrest
    Perjury
    Possession of a controlled substance
    Unlawful possession of a weapon
    Violation of a restraining order

    Class B:

    Criminal trespass
    Certain types of terroristic threats
    Certain types of assault
    Indecent exposure
    Prostitution
    Graffiti
    Theft of property worth more than $50, but less than $500

    Class C:

    Disorderly conduct
    Certain types of assault
    Reckless damage or destruction
    Leaving a child unattended in a vehicle
    Criminal trespass
    Theft of property worth less than $50
    Issuing a bad check
    Falsely reporting a missing child or person

    Trump's actions are objectively worse than a significant number of the above. "Misdemeanor" is a low bar, because the President's actions are supposed to be beyond reproach.
    you went through all this effort, but didn't bother to look up what "high crimes" are in the context of the constitution in regards to impeachment?

    high rimes refers to the office, not exceptionally bad crimes. go read.

  12. #12332
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You don't think it is a high crime to withhold funds so a foreign government can go after a political rival....who happened to be a former Vice President and congressman just for personal benefit?

    What the hell is a high crime then?
    wearing a tan suit

  13. #12333
    Quote Originally Posted by D Luniz View Post
    wearing a tan suit
    Dijon mustard on his burger.

  14. #12334
    Quote Originally Posted by ohtlmtlm View Post
    Dijon mustard on his burger.
    omg...that did it for me.
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  15. #12335
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-...hey-story.html

    Wait wait wait... Republican House Rep. Robert F. Hyde of Connecticut was the one behind what appears to be actual spying on a US ambassador and appears to have openly discussed bribing nearby businesses? So it was Hyde, directing Parnas and company to legitimately spy on Yavanovitch?

    If this is true, this is one of the biggest cases of projection I've seen in a while, and should lead to his immediate removal from office until the next election.

    Now I'm far more curious about what else Parnas has shared, because this is damning already.
    Looks more like an assasination plot to me especially talking about how the people they are hiring would need to make contact with security forces.

    “If you want her out they need to make contact with security forces.”

    Parnas does not respond at length to Hyde.

    “Interesting,” he writes after one series of messages. “Perfect,” he responds when Hyde informs him that “they’ll let me know when she’s on the move.”

    “Lol,” is Parnas’ response to Hyde’s message that “you can do anything in the Ukraine with money.”

  16. #12336
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/...15352754577409

    UHHHHH.....am I reading this right? Because to me, this looks like Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, hired shady foreign nationals to spy on a US diplomat.
    It seems worse than that, it seems like they were trying to assassinate her...

    “They are willing to help if we/you would like a price”

    “Guess you can do anything in the Ukraine with money... what I was told”

    Then after that she got more security...

    Quote Originally Posted by noidentity View Post
    Looks more like an assasination plot to me especially talking about how the people they are hiring would need to make contact with security forces.
    Bah you beat me to it.

  17. #12337
    Pandaren Monk
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    Now all that remains to be seen is how much of this shit was directly overseen by Trump or if it's another instance of him 'just happening' to be working closely with a bunch of morally abhorrent shitheels.

  18. #12338
    https://intelligence.house.gov/uploa...attachment.pdf

    Btw linked above is the evidence with the messages starting on pg14

    Stealing exchange from reddit below:
    Directly transcribed from the texts:

    Robert F. Hyde: Fuck that bitch

    Parnas: [links multiple articles]

    Robert F. Hyde: Wow. Can’t believe Trumo [sic] hasn’t fired this bitch. I’ll get right in that.

    Robert F. Hyde: [Links multiple articles/pictures]

    Robert F. Hyde: She under heavy protection outside Kiev

    Parnas: I know crazy shit

    Robert F. Hyde: My guy thinks maybe FSB..?

    Parnas: [Links articles]

    Robert F. Hyde: [Links picture]

    Parnas: Interesting

    Robert F. Hyde: [Links to article]: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ne...d-of-the-world

    Robert F. Hyde: What should I do with this?

    Robert F. Hyde: They are moving her tomorrow

    Robert F. Hyde: The guys over they asked what I would like to do and what is in it for them

    Robert F. Hyde: Wake up Yankees man

    Robert F. Hyde: She's talked to three people. Her phone is off. Computer is off.

    Robert F. Hyde: She's next to the embassy

    Robert F. Hyde: Not in the embassy

    Robert F. Hyde: Private security. Been there since Thursday.

    Parnas: Interesting

    Robert F. Hyde: They know she's a political puppet

    Robert F. Hyde: They will let me know when she's on the move

    Robert F. Hyde: And they will let me know when she's on the move

    Parnas: Perfect

    Robert F. Hyde: I mean where if they can find out.

    Robert F. Hyde: That adress I sent you checks out

    Robert F. Hyde: It's next to the embassy

    Robert F. Hyde: They are willing to help if we/you would like a price

    Robert F. Hyde: Guess you can do anything in the Ukraine with money... what I was told

    Parnas: Lol

    Robert F. Hyde: Update she will not be moved special security unit upgraded force on the compound people are already aware of the situation my contacts are asking what is the next step because cannot keep going to check people will start to ask questions

    Robert F. Hyde: If you want her out they need to make contact with security forces

    Robert F. Hyde: From Ukranians

    Robert F. Hyde: What's the word bro

    Robert F. Hyde: Any good stuff?

    Parnas: Call you soon in studio

    Robert F. Hyde: Let's go Holmes

    Robert F. Hyde: RG was good. But Ingraham had some hard questions

    Robert F. Hyde: Nothing has changed she is still not moving they check today again

    Robert F. Hyde: Hi buddy

    Robert F. Hyde: It's confirmed we have a person inside

    Parnas: [Links youtube video]: "Trumps takedown of FBI (Winning montage!)"

    Robert F. Hyde: Nice

    Robert F. Hyde: Hey brother do we stand down??? Or you still need intel be safe

    Robert F. Hyde: She had visitors

    Robert F. Hyde: It's confirmed we have a person inside

    Robert F. Hyde: Hey broski tell me what we are doing what's the next step
    Last edited by noidentity; 2020-01-15 at 04:27 AM.

  19. #12339
    What the literal fuck is this text exchange.

    Like, wow. At best........AT THE VERY BEST..........a private citizen is coordinating with foreign nationals, to spy on the movements of AN AMERICAN AMBASSADOR to a "hotzone" country, at the behest of Rudy Giuliani, THE PERSONAL ATTORNEY TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

    Like, this is Tom Clancy levels of what the fuck is going on here.

  20. #12340
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    What the literal fuck is this text exchange.

    Like, wow. At best........AT THE VERY BEST..........a private citizen is coordinating with foreign nationals, to spy on the movements of AN AMERICAN AMBASSADOR to a "hotzone" country, at the behest of Rudy Giuliani, THE PERSONAL ATTORNEY TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

    Like, this is Tom Clancy levels of what the fuck is going on here.
    And it still wouldn't even get a Republican congress(wo)man to actually grow a pair and say, "enough is enough". That's what's even more mind-boggling.

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