Mega-Thread: Impeachment Proceedings & Inquiry of Trump

[arandomuser]

1. Trump never wanted an investigation, just the announcement of one.
2. If this was serious, the DoJ would have led this and it would have been through proper channels.
3. The entire Republican narrative on this is a lie.



No, that's Ukraine doing Trump a personal political favor benefiting his campaign that is not in the national interest.

not to mention if you are at a war and you desperately need aid, you are incentivized to just fabricate dirt to appease trump to get the aid to help your people that are being fucking killed by russia, if it wasnt for the whistleblower they would of had most certainly did this

[Shadowferal]

they'd not be helping us directly.

oh..so "indirectly" is okay with you...regardless of how illegal is still is..

[Endus]

they'd not be helping us directly.

they'd be conducting an investigation into corrupt behavior that took place in their country, and then letting the president know the results of that investigation. which, he'd have probably went and used in some election advertisements. that's not ukraine doing it or deciding our president.

Except;

A> It was already investigated, and
B> there was never any hint of a possibility that the Bidens, either of them, were in any way involved.

Literally the only reason for the investigation Trump wanted was so he could use its announcement to hurt Joe Biden's chances in 2020. That's it. And to reach that goal, he held up Congressionally-approved foreign aid; whether you agree with Congress or not on that decision, Trump had no justification for interfering with it; he did so out of naked self-interest, and against the nation's interests.

[Fugus]

they'd not be helping us directly.

they'd be conducting an investigation into corrupt behavior that took place in their country, and then letting the president know the results of that investigation. which, he'd have probably went and used in some election advertisements. that's not ukraine doing it or deciding our president.

Again, wrong. Trump was trying to extort them to get the same bump Comey gave him when he opened up with Clinton.

And if Trump wanted to do it legally, he could have gone with the DOJ or FBI and have them coordinate with them. But that would put Trump's fingerprints on it. And Trump wanted him investigated for debunked conspiracy theories and things that the Republicans already cleared him from years ago.

You are quite literally backing debunked conspiracy theories yourself at this point. And given your name, I think it might be intentional.

[derpkitteh]

No, that's Ukraine doing Trump a personal political favor benefiting his campaign that is not in the national interest.

it's not different than US-backed forces driving out some ISIS group, and trump saying "hey look, we're beating ISIS and i caused it" in a campaign ad.

or, it's no different from mexico starting to step up deportations at trump's urging and then trump running ads "i'm reducing illegal immigration".

[Elegiac]

I am not hopeful for a conviction at this point.

All I can hope is that the American people have more of a soul than our Senators do and that they turn Election Day into a metaphorical bloodbath. If the people we elect are so fearful for their careers that they aren’t willing to stand up to Trump and do what’s right for the country, maybe it’s time to give the car hanging off the cliff a nudge.

Therein lies the problem; owing to America's electoral system the Democrats are entirely capable of losing all three branches of the executive despite having a popular majority in excess of six percentage points or more.

This is why you hear an increasing number of political scientists referring to America's legitimacy crisis. People are increasingly realising the system is rigged against them and the resistance to any and every effort at reform from the right is simply creating the conclusion that the American government, by virtue of lacking a democratic mandate, is fundamentally illegitimate.

And honestly? It's a fair point. If Americans believe even half of what the Founders wrote, by those metrics American government has functionally become a tyranny of a landed rural minority to its urban citizens.

[shimerra]

there isn't, because it isn't doing anything to americans.

it's withholding some handouts for ukraine. money that should be in the US citizen's pocket instead. maybe if we quit paying for the rest of the world's problems, we could have some fucking healthcare.

Americans voted for congress to act on their behalf. He illegally subverted the voters by denying the aid. That hurts American leader's ability to negotiate things like say trade deals because American leadership cannot be trusted. It also harms Americans by subverting their vote by taking away from congress to benefit Trump, not America. Americans have been harmed regardless of if you're smart enough to see it. And harm doesn't mean Trump went and kneecapped them. Americans have domestic and foreign interests. I know you're smart enough to understand that.


You're also extremely stupid if you think we need to stop foreign aid to get health care. Take every cent Americans pay for healthcare now and get rid of private insurance and go single payer. You'll have lower taxes than what Americans pay now for healthcare through insurance/their own pocket, better quality healthcare/access, and I haven't had to touch a single other part of the budget. Your thinking is not only lazy it's just bad and not smart.

And Trump is deliberately lieing, harassing, and smearing American citizens namely the Biden's as well as the rest of us by promoting Russian propaganda that Ukraine interfered with our elections and wasting government resources that could be spent on healthcare like you said chasing debunked conspiracies. But I'm sure you'll come up for a reason why that doesn't count.

[arandomuser]

I am not hopeful for a conviction at this point.

All I can hope is that the American people have more of a soul than our Senators do and that they turn Election Day into a metaphorical bloodbath. If the people we elect are so fearful for their careers that they aren’t willing to stand up to Trump and do what’s right for the country, maybe it’s time to give the car hanging off the cliff a nudge.

cant even trust the elections anymore, mitch wont let us pass a election security bill which most senators supposedly support" he wont even put it to a vote, a 12 year old can hack our system and change votes, im pretty sure trained russian hackers easily can and probably will,

[cubby]

I am not hopeful for a conviction at this point.

All I can hope is that the American people have more of a soul than our Senators do and that they turn Election Day into a metaphorical bloodbath. If the people we elect are so fearful for their careers that they aren’t willing to stand up to Trump and do what’s right for the country, maybe it’s time to give the car hanging off the cliff a nudge.

I also hope you realize how totally fucked our election system is, and that Trump got 3 million votes LESS than the other candidate, and still "won".

[Reeve]

No it's not. Because the only reason why Trump isn't in office now is because of a stupid memo in the DOJ saying he can't/ a few vague court cases being stretched to justify it. And that plays a role but doesn't mean it will have the same deleterious consequences Cesar opted for.

Case in point Netenyahu tried to get immunity while he was in office and was denied but had he got it all it would've done is kicked the can down the road until he was voted out. While I like the way the Israeli's handle it over just giving every president a blanket immunity in office there's no downside to charging him when he leaves office even if I agree he should be charged now.

I'm confused by your first sentence. Trump IS in office now. The reason he wasn't charged was the OLC memo saying a sitting President can't be charged. I'm saying that OLC memo is crap, and that a President should be able to be charged in office, because waiting until they leave office creates a massive perverse incentive for Presidents to try to stay in power, even if it means perverting the constitution to do it. It's something that has happened over and over again both in ancient and modern history.

[derpkitteh]

oh..so "indirectly" is okay with you...regardless of how illegal is still is..

is it not exactly the same as the other things i listed?

using a foreign country for election gains happens all the time. the method of achieving it may be different, but the result is the same. the president gets to say "i did X" or "look at Y" in an ad, and it does basically jack shit to actually help or hurt, because the only thing anyone ever really votes on is "D" or "R" on the ballot.

[Endus]

it's not different than US-backed forces driving out some ISIS group, and trump saying "hey look, we're beating ISIS and i caused it" in a campaign ad.

or, it's no different from mexico starting to step up deportations at trump's urging and then trump running ads "i'm reducing illegal immigration".

In both cases, you're talking about Trump taking ownership of things done legally by his adminstration.

In the actual case, we're talking about something that was not done legally, and done solely for Trump's personal gain, not to any benefit of the nation, and in fact working against the nation's interests.

Comparing your two examples to what we're dealing with is wildly fucking dishonest.

If you want a more-comparable example, it would be like ordering US troops to stop holding a position defending an American field hospital from an ISIS assault and repositioning them to defend a Trump hotel that's miles away from the combat zone.

Or like pressuring Mexico by threatening new tariffs, to get them to unlawfully detain Hunter Biden on trumped-up charges so you can make his dad look bad in a campaign ad.

[derpkitteh]

I also hope you realize how totally fucked our election system is, and that Trump got 3 million votes LESS than the other candidate, and still "won".

no, that's not fucked up.

that's stopping the tyranny of the majority.

[Elegiac]

no, that's not fucked up.

that's stopping the tyranny of the majority.

By instituting a tyranny of the minority instead, apparently.

[Elegiac]

You mean stopping democracy... Why should there be a tyranny of the minority?

Because otherwise right wing Americans might have to consensus build rather than institute their beliefs on the rest of us by fiat. /s

[Endus]

no, that's not fucked up.

that's stopping the tyranny of the majority.

In other words, "democracy".

The only alternative to "tyranny of the majority" is "tyranny of some particular minority".

[derpkitteh]

In both cases, you're talking about Trump taking ownership of things done legally by his adminstration.

In the actual case, we're talking about something that was not done legally, and done solely for Trump's personal gain, not to any benefit of the nation, and in fact working against the nation's interests.

Comparing your two examples to what we're dealing with is wildly fucking dishonest.

works out to the same outcome. candidate gets brownie points, the mindless sheep nod and then go vote for their favorite capital letter.

i don't at all care about what he did with ukraine, and i just won't ever care about it. i'd much rather people focus on the fact that we've upped the stakes yet again in the middle east, sent more soldiers to die for our greatest ally, and taken another step lengthening our 19-year middle eastern safari.

[Endus]

works out to the same outcome. candidate gets brownie points, the mindless sheep nod and then go vote for their favorite capital letter.

You're projecting your own partisanship and willful refusal to make an informed decision.

Sure, you can openly declare your own personal malfeasance like that. But the idea that this kind of dishonesty is the standard? That's just not true.

i don't at all care about what he did with ukraine, and i just won't ever care about it. i'd much rather people focus on the fact that we've upped the stakes yet again in the middle east, sent more soldiers to die for our greatest ally, and taken another step lengthening our 19-year middle eastern safari.

All you're doing here is saying that you're blindly partisan, and don't care what the facts might be.

[Elegiac]

i don't at all care about what he did with ukraine, and i just won't ever care about it.

You do know that being proud of ignorance isn't generally a good thing, yes?

[shimerra]

works out to the same outcome. candidate gets brownie points, the mindless sheep nod and then go vote for their favorite capital letter.

i don't at all care about what he did with ukraine, and i just won't ever care about it. i'd much rather people focus on the fact that we've upped the stakes yet again in the middle east, sent more soldiers to die for our greatest ally, and taken another step lengthening our 19-year middle eastern safari.

You're aware that multiple things can be cared for at once? At least those of us with more than one functioning brain cell. And that allowing Presidents to get away with abuses like Ukraine is only another weight put on the scale of increased presidential power giving them greater latitude to keep us in a middle east perma war and not only that but also hide documents from congress/the courts and prevent testimony that may expose executive malfeasance? Congratulations. The thing you claim to hate you're making it easier for future presidents to get away with because you can't be arsed to think for two seconds.

Please tell me you understand that simple simple thing.