1. #14321
    Quote Originally Posted by Inuyaki View Post
    Also Stephen King seems highly committed to get her out of office.
    All I hope is this story ends better than most of his books

    Sorry I needed to take that low hanging fruit and I'll gladly take an infraction because that burn was worth it.

  2. #14322
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Of course this all hangs on Democrats running a brutal cut throat campaign, I cannot say this enough democrats need to stop taking the high road. This election everything is on the line so take off the kid gloves the only thing that matters is winning no matter what it takes.
    Under their kid gloves they're wearing more kid gloves.

    I mean if you look back over the US's entire history, as much as its right wing has been utterly despicable pretty much the entire time, I have to say a lot of the blame should be laid at the door of the left that seems completely spineless and unwilling to take the necessary steps to stop them.

    The early US smiled and nodded and allowed the South to protect the institution of slavery for a century, afraid to rock the boat. Finally when that became unsustainable they were forced into a war which they reluctantly fought. After the war, Lincoln was killed and a Confederate sympathiser took office - he sabotaged the Reconstruction and his opponents failed to impeach him. That spinelessness sold out the black people of the South and condemned them to the KKK, lynchings and Jim Crow while the North grew weary of fighting and became once again submissive to white Southern power. That continued through the early 20th Century where the North failed to do anything to stop the rise of neo-Confederate propaganda whitewashing the ante-bellum South to mainstream audiences. Finally that too became unsustainable and through blood, sweat and tears the Civil Rights Era happened. And now we're back to square one as the left limply opposes the reactionary forces that seek to overturn that as well.

    Honestly, not to absolve the American right of its repulsive behaviour, but it's partly down to the cowardly left that consistently fails to oppose them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I can't really agree with this, to be honest. It has to do with fundamental principles. Left-wing stances think that equity and fair treatment of all is important. If you'd asked me in the early '90s when I was in high school, I would've been a left-winger, but transgender issues weren't on my radar, at all. Not because I was against it, it just wasn't something that had come up in a way that demanded I figure out my position.

    When it did, my position was based on the same principles as everything else; treat people fairly and equitably and don't be a dick about stuff when they're not hurting anyone.

    The idea that this means I went "further left" really isn't true; my position didn't change, it was simply introduced to a new concept to be applied to. My position remained the same, in terms of base principles (if better-informed and more consciously aware).

    That contextuality is just an expression of someone's internalized and often subconscious prejudice. I work to combat mine if I run up against my own discomfort, I think a lot of others do as well. If we're discussing which group you desire to see marginalized and abused for their variance from an arbitrary standard, then I'm gonna struggle to see that as a left-wing view at all; "I'm not a misogynist and I don't hate black people, just LGBT deviants" is a bigoted viewpoint, and leans right. You don't get "points" for prejudices you don't have.
    While that's true, that's a fairly narrow range of time in a single country which hasn't really changed its political spectrum a lot since the 90s.

    Take a longer view, even just in the US - for example, in the early 20th Century eugenics was a progressive cause. I mean, they definitely wanted to improve the lot of the human race, just by means which would be abhorrent to modern liberals.

    We think of acceptance and equality as being fundamental left wing attributes, and to some extent this has always been true (eg, the original left/right split was between people concerned with the common folk vs. the nobility), but the specific frame of reference we have for this in our lifetimes is a result of the Civil Rights Era. If you go way back, many of the early opponents of slavery believed that the institution was cruel and demeaning, but still did not believe black people were suitable for life in "civilisation" and thus envisioned that after slavery was ended they'd be shipped back to Africa (this actually happened to an extent in the pre-Civil War era - see Liberia).

    Here in Australia, gun control has never been a political issue and it was our arch-Conservative government that implemented heavy gun control legislation in the wake of Port Arthur (the laws American pundits love to despise and/or misrepresent). In the US, being pro-gun is considered firmly a right wing thing. Although our politics have been slowly shifting under the influence of exported US politics so we might end up in the same position.

    Left and right make sense within the context of our individual countries, within certain time periods, but they aren't really an objective axis. Just a representation of the two dominant sides of politics at the moment.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2020-02-01 at 04:16 AM.
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  3. #14323
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    (numbered your points for simpler reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Under their kid gloves they're wearing more kid gloves.

    I mean if you look back over the US's entire history, as much as its right wing has been utterly despicable pretty much the entire time, I have to say a lot of the blame should be laid at the door of the left that seems completely spineless and unwilling to take the necessary steps to stop them.

    1. The early US smiled and nodded and allowed the South to protect the institution of slavery for a century, afraid to rock the boat. 2. Finally when that became unsustainable they were forced into a war which they reluctantly fought. After the war, Lincoln was killed and a Confederate sympathiser took office - he sabotaged the Reconstruction and his opponents failed to impeach him. 3. That spinelessness sold out the black people of the South and condemned them to the KKK, lynchings and Jim Crow while the North grew weary of fighting and became once again submissive to white Southern power. That continued through the early 20th Century where the North failed to do anything to stop the rise of neo-Confederate propaganda whitewashing the ante-bellum South to mainstream audiences. 4. Finally that too became unsustainable and through blood, sweat and tears the Civil Rights Era happened. 5. And now we're back to square one as the left limply opposes the reactionary forces that seek to overturn that as well.

    Honestly, not to absolve the American right of its repulsive behaviour, but it's partly down to the cowardly left that consistently fails to oppose them.
    1. You mean compromises to form a nation? That kind of "spinelessness"? Is your knowledge of history that myopic?
    2. The left was spineless when they started a war to fix the wrong that almost tore the country apart? You gotta make up you mind.
    3. You mean like the Voting Rights Act?
    4. Oh, so the timing wasn't convenient for you? Social change has to happen on some kind of specific time line?
    5. You mean like voting to Impeach?

    Your version of reality borders on [I don't know the right word]. You seem to think that because bad people did bad things and weren't immediately stopped it falls on the people who were still doing good to carry the blame. What would we have had at all if not for the left making good and decent changes all throughout this country's history?

    It's like you know what happened, but are telling yourself some vulgar version in which the bad people don't get the full blame for their bad deeds. And don't give me the "first they took the _____, and we did nothing".

    And did you forget WWII - where we stopped facism in it's track?
    No one is above the law!

  4. #14324
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    The game plan was never to have Trump removed by congress. That, simply put, was not going to happen. The republicans are too deep in this. The impeachment proceedings were to 1) establish that Trump did break the law, 2) establish that the republicans don't care, 3) indelibly taint Trump's record with an impeachment asterisk, and 4) drag his name through the mud.

    The game plan has been and will CONTINUE to be to oust him in November of 2020. That is the big picture here. The democrats need to stop quarreling and decide on a candidate, and then push that person for all they're worth whilst using the republican's utter subversion of justice as a weapon against them.

    Impeachment was never the end of the path, it was merely one of the stepping stones in the process. The fight isn't lost, but it also isn't over.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
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    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  5. #14325
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    And yet...he will still win reelection because the alternatives are senile old socialists.

    As I've said before, it's not a morality or popularity contest. What a sad indictment of the current state of Democrats. "Not Trump" just isn't good enough.
    So you're saying socialists, which only one can only possibly be described as, is somehow worse than a known criminal conman that peeps on little girls, wants to fuck his own daughter, has the IQ of a ham sandwich, and has tried to start multiple wars.

    Do tell how any of that makes sense.

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  6. #14326
    I honestly don't even know what these mindless socialism attacks are even referring to at this point. Republicans have made the mistake over the past 12 years screaming socialism and communism at anything and everything. It holds no weight at this point. They're just yelling into the wind.

    By all means. If Sanders is the nominee just keep yelling about socialism without actually putting forth any solutions for the actual problems we face.

  7. #14327
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    I honestly don't even know what these mindless socialism attacks are even referring to at this point. Republicans have made the mistake over the past 12 years screaming socialism and communism at anything and everything. It holds no weight at this point. They're just yelling into the wind.

    By all means. If Sanders is the nominee just keep yelling about socialism without actually putting forth any solutions for the actual problems we face.
    Well the problem there is that Sanders also isn't a socialist. He's a democratic socialist, which is not the same.

    Also, they keep whining about socialism while at the same time benefiting from socialist policies (like the farm bailouts).

  8. #14328
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Yes, it was rushed and then they expected the Senate to do the rest of their homework.for them. Another example of Dems snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
    You actually believe Republicans would have suddenly grown spines and gone against Trump and his base? You're funny.

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  9. #14329
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Strange take considering the 2018 results.
    2018 still saw the Democrats lose two crucial Senate seats which are all that matter right now.

  10. #14330
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    2018 still saw the Democrats lose two crucial Senate seats which are all that matter right now.
    They could have lost a lot more considering how many were up for election. Heck the Montana Dem got re-elected and Montana went huge for trump. Only losing two is actually really good for Dems all things considered, how much worse it coulda been.

  11. #14331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    I honestly don't even know what these mindless socialism attacks are even referring to at this point. Republicans have made the mistake over the past 12 years screaming socialism and communism at anything and everything. It holds no weight at this point. They're just yelling into the wind.

    By all means. If Sanders is the nominee just keep yelling about socialism without actually putting forth any solutions for the actual problems we face.
    Propaganda doesn't need to make sense, it just needs to scare people.

    Also, it's apparently backfiring with the younger generation because they keep seeing good policies like universal healthcare be called socialism so young people are starting to support socialism more(while still being as ignorant as the Republicans screeching about it).

    It's not a recipe for good things, I know that. People really need to tone down the propaganda around those policies.

  12. #14332
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Exactly. I still don't understand why the house was lazy and didn't try to collect more information before sending it to the senate to have a more iron clad case instead of hoping the republican senate would actually do their job to research their boss.
    How much more iron clad do you think it could have gotten? For that matter what makes you think that the people that always sides with Trump, no matter what he does, would change their minds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    it IS good when politicians are shown for what they actually are.
    And this showed what Trump actually is, fully corrupt, and yet you're okay with this kind of corruption. Nice back asswards logic and completely destroying your own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arandomuser View Post
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/31/polit...ial/index.html

    so basically all of the supposed "moderate senators" say
    we dont need witnesses because they think trumps guilty
    New witnesses that would testify to the truth of the allegations are not needed for my threshold analysis, which already assumed that all the allegations made are true," Rubio wrote.
    BUT..he shouldnt be removed from office.. such a weird out for them, basically admitting the dems are right but still voting to help the president in 2020

    wow
    The same man that knew how stupid Trump was/is and the same man Trump specifically insulted repeatedly. Every GOP that voted against witnesses are just Republicucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    there isn't, because it isn't doing anything to americans.

    it's withholding some handouts for ukraine. money that should be in the US citizen's pocket instead. maybe if we quit paying for the rest of the world's problems, we could have some fucking healthcare.
    You don't understand what allies are, do you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i don't at all care about what he did with ukraine, and i just won't ever care about it. i'd much rather people focus on the fact that we've upped the stakes yet again in the middle east, sent more soldiers to die for our greatest ally, and taken another step lengthening our 19-year middle eastern safari.
    And this would have been the chance to get rid of the man fucking doing that, but I guess you don't care about that since you don't care about Ukraine. Seriously, does your logic ever end well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i wish i could take the time to explain to you exactly how humanity works, the truth of just how low the average person is. but i'm never allowed to defend my positions or explain them thoroughly, so i'll not be doing that.
    You're allowed to defend your position all you want, but your position wasn't well to begin with and your defense has far less quality than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Trump specifically - I think he is a boor and his hamfisted and shortsighted approach to various matters painted a giant target on his back which dogged his whole presidency and turned it into non-ending firefighting instead of doing actual useful work
    You think that's the only reasons Trump doesn't get shit done? Perhaps it's because he's a lazy oaf with the intelligence of an empty crackerjack box.

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  13. #14333
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The democrats need to stop quarreling and decide on a candidate
    That is literally what the primaries are for. It's honestly a bit ridiculous that everyone expects the DNC to settle on one person before the first vote is even cast.

  14. #14334
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The game plan was never to have Trump removed by congress.
    I agree with the rest of your post, but not so sure about that point.

    I think many really thought there is a slight possibility to remove him. If they would have gotten witnesses and documents, the Bolton testimony and Parnas documents could have been devastating to Trump. Nixon had low impeachment support early, too... and once it got overwhelming Rs jumped ship.

    I know, there is FoxNews now, but who knows...

  15. #14335
    Quote Originally Posted by Inuyaki View Post
    I agree with the rest of your post, but not so sure about that point.

    I think many really thought there is a slight possibility to remove him. If they would have gotten witnesses and documents, the Bolton testimony and Parnas documents could have been devastating to Trump. Nixon had low impeachment support early, too... and once it got overwhelming Rs jumped ship.

    I know, there is FoxNews now, but who knows...
    well, at the least, take soliace that there will be an unending drip from this leaking unchanged diaper of an admin, and the stink of that will cost the GOp votes up and down ballot

    (but that doesnt mean stay home damnit)

  16. #14336
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Cool anecdotal evidence. And I'm a brown minority among many who have had no day-to-day issues since this admin took over.

    See how that works?
    Given that you lied for a long time about not being a Trump supporter, I wouldn't put it past you to be lying about being a brown minority. You have no credibility and should be taken seriously by no one. Everything you say should be taken with a grain of salt by those that interact with you.

  17. #14337
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Also, they keep whining about socialism while at the same time benefiting from socialist policies (like the farm bailouts).
    The same people that say "fuck socialism" are the ones that go onto GoFundMe to try and pay medical bills. By having people work together to cover the costs.

    They are quite happy to see socialism in various aspects of their lives. I can only assume that they're terrified of it being more organised and efficient, for some reason.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

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    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  18. #14338
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    They are quite happy to see socialism in various aspects of their lives. I can only assume that they're terrified of it being more organised and efficient, for some reason.
    I can attest though that socialist policies are really stupid.
    Take me for example. I am sitting here today at home, watching streams and stuff, getting ready for the football games starting soon... all is fine.
    But on Monday I have to go to work again and I am not scared that I could lose everything if something bad happens or I get fired. Can you imagine that atrocity? Where is my freedom to be scared for my livelihood? The state is basically forcing me to live a carefree life...


    Edit
    I just realised we got a little bit off-topic, sorry... just wanted to point out how stupid that fear-mongering of the right is, forget which thread we are in

  19. #14339
    Quote Originally Posted by Inuyaki View Post
    I agree with the rest of your post, but not so sure about that point.

    I think many really thought there is a slight possibility to remove him. If they would have gotten witnesses and documents, the Bolton testimony and Parnas documents could have been devastating to Trump. Nixon had low impeachment support early, too... and once it got overwhelming Rs jumped ship.

    I know, there is FoxNews now, but who knows...
    I don't think anyone actually expected it.

    This has all been to damage Trump. We know what we're doing.

    This entire sag will, in the end, have snared Trump from August 2019 until February 2020. Six glorious months where he couldn't do shit. That after six months where he was paralyzed by the outcome of the 2018 midterm. That after 18 months where he was ensnared from acting by the Muller investigation.

    Now there just needs to be another trap laid for him to last from March until November that keeps him busy. I'm sure something will come up. It's Donald Trump. The man's had a big nothing-burger of a Presidency. He keeps giving opportunities to stop him.

    Oh... and crucial feat accomplished: this impeachment interdicted Trump's 2020 campaign dirty trick to manufacture a "Crooked Biden" conspiracy. It disrupted it in the formative stage, debunked and discredited it. The lies will still work among the cult, but not among voters Democrats have to reach.

    All in all, I'm quite pleased how things have gone down. We all knew the Republicans would compromise their patriotism, honor an integrity in this trial. They found the most destructive way to do so as well. There is no escaping these votes for these people. Because one day the bill will come due and they will all be confronted with it.

    They will rue the day they did not sell out Trump when they had the chance.

    That's why I've barely commented in this thread since the impeachment trial began this month. I didn't see the point of it. We did what we set out to do. We stood for the Constitution, democracy and the rule of law when Trumphadis did not. We proved ourselves the better principled Americans. We honored the founders. Now the important thing is to prepare to defeat him in the election, and then after that, start the federal criminal investigation by an attorney general and prosecutorial team willing to attempt to send an ex-President and his family to prison.

    That is what Trump has unleashed. That's what he's normalized. And it will be weaponized against him and his family and his inner circle. And it could be 2020 where a democrat wins. Or 2024. Or 2028. But that day will come and all will be brought to justice.
    Last edited by Skroe; 2020-02-01 at 02:21 PM.

  20. #14340
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I don't think anyone actually expected it.

    This has all been to damage Trump. We know what we're doing.

    This entire sag will, in the end, have snared Trump from August 2019 until February 2020. Six glorious months where he couldn't do shit. That after six months where he was paralyzed by the outcome of the 2018 midterm. That after 18 months where he was ensnared from acting by the Muller investigation.

    Now there just needs to be another trap laid for him to last from March until November that keeps him busy. I'm sure something will come up. It's Donald Trump. The man's had a big nothing-burger of a Presidency. He keeps giving opportunities to stop him.

    Oh... and crucial feat accomplished: this impeachment interdicted Trump's 2020 campaign dirty trick to manufacture a "Crooked Biden" conspiracy. It disrupted it in the formative stage, debunked and discredited it. The lies will still work among the cult, but not among voters Democrats have to reach.

    All in all, I'm quite pleased how things have gone down. We all knew the Republicans would compromise their patriotism, honor an integrity in this trial. They found the most destructive way to do so as well. There is no escaping these votes for these people. Because one day the bill will come due and they will all be confronted with it.

    They will rue the day they did not sell out Trump when they had the chance.

    That's why I've barely commented in this thread since the impeachment trial began this month. I didn't see the point of it. We did what we set out to do. We stood for the Constitution, democracy and the rule of law when Trumphadis did not. We proved ourselves the better principled Americans. We honored the founders. Now the important thing is to prepare to defeat him in the election, and then after that, start the federal criminal investigation by an attorney general and prosecutorial team willing to attempt to send an ex-President and his family to prison.

    That is what Trump has unleashed. That's what he's normalized. And it will be weaponized against him and his family and his inner circle. And it could be 2020 where a democrat wins. Or 2024. Or 2028. But that day will come and all will be brought to justice.
    There are still a few problems coming along William Barr has openly stayed he will try to pull a Comey during the elections with his "investigations". Trump has cleansed the white house of anyone who could blow the whistle on him under the guise of "efficiency". This is going to be the ugliest, dirtiest election in the history of the US, I fully expect all of Trump's foreign buddies to put their fingers on the scale even Israel will jump in for Trump if Bibi is in the clear.

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