Mega-Thread: Impeachment Proceedings & Inquiry of Trump

[Stormspellz]

I will give you credit for actually admitting truths, even though you brush them off as technicalities. Notice the liberals above you keep trying to push false narratives and such. However, you had a democratic congresswoman saying that people who already have made up their mind about impeachment should be recusing themselves. If that had happened during the house vote, there would be no impeachment. And Waters, Green, and others have been trying to impeach since the election, so I think you are discounting many of the angry democratic congressmen.

There are 2 reasons Pelosi changed and went ahead with impeachment. First is that her base is skewing further left and they want impeachment. For months she said no and finally gave in--knowing full well it would die in the senate. Knowing It dies in the senate. Her second reason is that the democrat candidates are so weak, they have to keep impeachment in the news. Once impeachment leaves the news, what do these candidates talk about? Medicare for all? Healthcare for all illegal immigrants? Taking away fossil fuel jobs and making miners learn coding???? Seriously, they are killing themselves and the only thing keeping it out of the news is impeachment.

I'm sure Trump getting caught red handed trying to bribe a foriegn government for personal gain hand zero to do with Pelosi's change on the matter, which again he's been breaking the law and corrupting the office since he was sworn in. Trump tower meeting alone would of had impeached any democrat president and the democrats would of voted for removal, yet republicans continue put power and greed over country and their oaths of office.

on a quick side note. you keep bringing up miners, and yet under 45 coal jobs have drastically dropped, even one the largest companies went belly up, so as the trend has been for decades coal jobs are drying up, whats the Republican's answer? simply wishing "make coal great again" won't bring coal back. So why do you keep trying to vilify actual solutions to the problems, or do you actually think "thoughts and prayers" will fix the problem?

[Draco-Onis]

Don't forget Trump lost by millions of votes to Hillary. She was incredibly disliked and as mentioned, Comey really fucked her over. Despite all of that, Trump barely squeaked by because of thousands of votes in a few states. At no point has Trump been liked or supported by a majority of voters.

Trump has fewer republican supporters now than in 2016. His terrible performance as president has also energized the dem base well beyond what it was in 2016. Millions of independents that thought, "fuck it let's see what happens" won't vote for him again. Two big sources of republican votes come from boomers/silents and white men; two groups that have only shrunk since 2016.

So where are the votes coming from that will give Trump a 2020 victory?

I wouldn't underestimate democrats ability to shoot themselves in the foot for example Biden picking a "moderate" as his VP instead of a progressive to keep the base together among many other possible fuck ups including a contested convention. While Trump is pretty much guaranteed to lose the popular vote by millions he only needs to win the swing states last time he won by 70-80K not to mention he will have even more foreign help blessed by the GOP.

[Waniou]

I will give you credit for actually admitting truths, even though you brush them off as technicalities. Notice the liberals above you keep trying to push false narratives and such. However, you had a democratic congresswoman saying that people who already have made up their mind about impeachment should be recusing themselves. If that had happened during the house vote, there would be no impeachment. And Waters, Green, and others have been trying to impeach since the election, so I think you are discounting many of the angry democratic congressmen.

There are 2 reasons Pelosi changed and went ahead with impeachment. First is that her base is skewing further left and they want impeachment. For months she said no and finally gave in--knowing full well it would die in the senate. Knowing It dies in the senate. Her second reason is that the democrat candidates are so weak, they have to keep impeachment in the news. Once impeachment leaves the news, what do these candidates talk about? Medicare for all? Healthcare for all illegal immigrants? Taking away fossil fuel jobs and making miners learn coding???? Seriously, they are killing themselves and the only thing keeping it out of the news is impeachment.

Every time I hear about how there was a lot of push to impeach Trump right from the word go, I'm reminded of that line from Liar Liar when a client asks Jim Carrey's character for advice after he's been caught doing something illegal again. Jim Carrey just yells down the phone "STOP BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE".

Someone needs to yell that at Trump. Someone needed to yell that at Trump a while ago. Because if he'd stop breaking the law, people would stop trying to impeach him.

[Templar 331]

There are 2 reasons Pelosi changed and went ahead with impeachment. First is that her base is skewing further left and they want impeachment.

Didn't know impeachment was a left leaning idea. Did anyone tell the Republicans in the 90's? Or the founding fathers?

As for the rest of your post I was going to respond to it but that would be derailing the thread. But I will say, the only reason you are attacking the Democratic candidates is because Trump doesn't have a leg to stand on and it's his own fault.

[Masark]

Didn't know impeachment was a left leaning idea. Did anyone tell the Republicans in the 90's? Or the founding fathers?

It probably was a fairly left idea the founding fathers time, as opposed to divine right of kings, which current republicans would really like back it seems.

[Templar 331]

It probably was a fairly left idea the founding fathers time, as opposed to divine right of kings, which current republicans would really like back it seems.

And that's the beauty of it. God knows how many times I've heard people defend the 2nd Amendment with "as our founding fathers intended!!!"

[Stormdash]

Didn't know impeachment was a left leaning idea. Did anyone tell the Republicans in the 90's? Or the founding fathers?

As for the rest of your post I was going to respond to it but that would be derailing the thread. But I will say, the only reason you are attacking the Democratic candidates is because Trump doesn't have a leg to stand on and it's his own fault.

Impeaching on the grounds of Orange Man is pretty left-leaning, though. It's not middle America Democrats that are flogging this, it's a political loser with, like, every lost Obama voter that went for Trump... but Twitter and the Squad want it, and Pelosi is trying to sate them, quick and dirty and have it out of the way and forgotten before it can sink her majority.

[Machismo]

Impeaching on the grounds of Orange Man is pretty left-leaning, though. It's not middle America Democrats that are flogging this, it's a political loser with, like, every lost Obama voter that went for Trump... but Twitter and the Squad want it, and Pelosi is trying to sate them, quick and dirty and have it out of the way and forgotten before it can sink her majority.

That's not why he's being impeached, try and keep up.

[Draco-Onis]

Impeaching on the grounds of Orange Man is pretty left-leaning, though. It's not middle America Democrats that are flogging this, it's a political loser with, like, every lost Obama voter that went for Trump... but Twitter and the Squad want it, and Pelosi is trying to sate them, quick and dirty and have it out of the way and forgotten before it can sink her majority.

Again he got impeached because of something he did just like Clinton for your narrative to work you literally have to ignore reality and pretend Trump's entire Ukraine shit show with Rudy never happened.

[Skroe]

On Thanksgiving, Trump was a +130 underdog to win reelection (with Bovada). As of December 26, they had him at -110. I guess you got your moral victory, but people that are putting money on the line sure don't seem to believe impeachment is inflicting damage to his reelection chances.

I want you to understand something. I'm not quite sure you do, so I'm going to put it plainly.

Trump is symptomatic. If he were to resign tomorrow, few things would suddenly get better. The biggest immediate benefit would be is that someone (Pence) less corrupt, self-interested and more loyal to the United States would be commander-in-chief and the security threat he represents would be mitigated. And were he to lose reelection in 2020, that would be 50% of the reason for being joys at seeing his back... the other half is a Democratic President opening up all White House records to investigators.

But that's it.

Because the problem isn't Trump. He's the tumor. The cancer is the folks who put him there. The folks who made a faustian bargain with him and rationalized it. The folks who overlooked the betrayals of our country he has committed, the corruption, the incompetence, because they got something. The folks who, when the time came to defend the Constitution, started to make excuses.

Trump has shown that there is a very ugly strain of Authoritarian supporters in America who proclaim fealty to the rule of law and the Constitution, but when the time comes to actually show it, they are as compromised as the members of United Russia (Putin's nominal political party). They love the Constitution so long as it does not get in the way of their agenda. And when it does, they freely step on it.

These people deny objective reality
These people engage in wild conspiracy theories.
THese people, most foolishly, utilize the failures of others to rationalize their support for a man who never should have been President.

That's the rot. That's the cancer. Millions of American completely unworthy of the liberal democracy they inherited, and in fact, are out right contemptuous of it.

The Impeachment - an indictment in effect - is not just an indictment of Trump, but an indictment of the people who put him there. Every voter. Every TV host. Every forum poster. In that, Trump's defenders are correct. It is an attack on 60 million people, because when the time came, 60 million people betrayed the Constitution and betrayed our national interests rather than do the brave thing. And it wasn't a one off event. Many of them have kept doing it for the last three years.

Treating this cancer is going to take many years and many elections. It's going to involve political trascendent leaders who haven't arrived yet. It's going to involve many investigations and trials. It's going to involve shaming Trump supporters for decades to come.

And that's what impeachement is. A scarlet letter. It is the majority of Americans - 51% to 55% telling the 40% against impeachment and have generally been supporting of Trump, that they are in the wrong.

You might not thing that matters much. You are mistaken. It is the only thing that matters.

Take Andrew Johnson. Generally regarded as a terrible President. He was a racist on a unity ticket with Lincoln, who upon his ascension, fought radical reconstruction by Republicans. He was impeached and very nearly removed. And the character of that impeachment is quite clear too: Republicans basically laid a trap for him and set him up. Nothing else Andrew Johnson did is particularly relevant or remembered. All that his name is associated with is the failure of reconstruction, impeachment and near removal, and Republicans in the House and Senate laying a trap for him.

Or take Nixon. His' record as President in terms of achievement is pretty darn amazing. He took the US off the gold standard. He exited the US from Vietnam. He opened relations with China and exacerbated the Soviet-Sino split. He signed bills that planted the seeds of post-Vietnam military modernization. He was President for all of the moon landings. The Space Shuttle program began under him as well. He signed several landmark arms control treaties with the Soviets and lead to detente with them. It's a pretty impressive record, when viewed from that angle. Certainly far more than Trump's. Far more than most Presidents.

But what's the thing that matters? Watergate. He tried to cheat, got caught, lied about it, and resigned before impeachment and certain removal. That is Nixon's only historic legacy. Not the genuine improvements to the national interest, that were important. But the fact he attacked our constitutional principles and was held to account. That is all we have learned about Nixon, unless you really get into the history of it all.

That is what is in store for Donald Trump and his supporters. His record of success is thin. A couple of Supreme Court judges? Some appeals court judges? A tax cut? Other Presidents have done that and far, far more. His supporters treating that record as something great and historic just speaks to the utter downgrading of their standards. He has shaped no budgets and few pieces of legislation. He has begun no meaningful initiatives. He has seen constant erosion of his power. He is no Nixon. He's not even a Ford.

And now impeached, forevermore the only thing that matters is that is that Donald Trump will be the President who tried to cheat in the 2020 election by bribing a foreign government, got caught, and got impeached for it. And fortunately - and this is the fun part - Mitch McConnell is being a very helpful accomplice to those efforts by portraying Trump's impending acquittal from the outside as the most compromised thing possible. And that is how history will record it and Children will learn it: a corrupt President was confronted by the majority of Americans but only saved because of more systemic corruption, whose root predated Trump. McConnell's strategy here, is pure short term (but he'll be dead in a few years and hardly cares). In the long term, it's completely ruinous to ever telling an alternative story where Trump was unjusted impeached. Because of McConnell, it is only the guilty protecting the guilty, with the majority of Americans, honoring the Constition, doing what they could.

That lesson - the one we teach our Children - is how we recover from this dark era. That's the real war. That's how we recover not just from Trump, but the things that made Trump possible. That's how we treat the cancer.

You call it a moral victory? It's a victory for all time. Hell Trump being re-elected and serving 4 more disastrous years where the national interest is systemically pillaged to enrich him and his friends might even help our cause.

Nancy Pelosi and the House Democrats did something great and important by being the champions of the majority of American standing against the illegitimate President of the United States, his supporters, and you. Henceforth there is the liberal democratic Party (small d now) of which the Democratic Party (big D) is a subset, and the authoritarian party of Trump.

And it will be nothing but the first of many episodes of the defenders of the Constitution standing against those who would rape it.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll take a wager to match that check you wrote your precious democratic party for doing what the founding fathers warned against and partisan impeaching. Does it still count as impeachment if you actually do not try to remove the President? Do you take your money back if they do not even try to remove him?

You are sooooo overconfident, tell me which of these candidates can beat Trump. The only one who has a chance is Biden and he is single-handedly trying to take himself out. The socialists will lose simply by being socialist, the gay mayor can not win, that leaves Biden... who wants miners to learn coding?
.

The Democratic Party isn't precious to me. They are my allies and they have followed the Constitution to the letter by impeaching your illegitimate President for a crime the Founders would have recognized.

He tried to solicit foreign help via a bribe, in order to cheat in an election. An abuse of his office, a betrayal of the national interest and a violation of the Constitution and his oath. That is the only thing that matters. And now it is a matter of history he will go on trial for it, where Mitch McConnell, being super useful in his demeanor thus far, has telegraphed a tainted, compromised outcome, thus further engraving into our history the un-American practices of Trump and his supporters.

Trump has been formally impeached, period. And no I don't take my money back.

And Biden will likely win the nomination. And then he's well positioned to beat Trump.

But you know what... you @TexasRules, have a problem on your hand. Because even if Biden doesn't, a Democratic President is coming some day.... 2024... 2028 whenever., And that Democratic President will legally pursue Trump-era figures and just as importantly, open up all the files and recordings the Trump White House is hiding away.

The next Democratic President, whenever that may be, will engage in a systemic disection of the Trump White House to expose to the public what went on behind closed door ans find (and expand upon) any wrong doing.

That is coming... one day... hopefully in 2020, but if not, you know... one day. And then what? Because you and your ilk have supported the most corrupt administration since Warren Harding that has been besieged by trials, investigations and convictions and only carries on because striking at the President himself is genuinely hard. But that won't last forever, and Private Citizen Trump will be held to account too.

What do you do then? How do you think this ends well for you?

My grandfather used to have a saying: if you walk the line, you'll never have to look over your shoulder. It means that if you stay true to yourself and a moral center, you'll never have any meaningful regrets. She's here for the Holidays and I told her I'm so thankful my immigrant grandfather (from Latin America) who loved this country so much never lived to see this dark, hateful age where that saying was so flagrantly violated by so many people who fashion themselves "real Americans".

But the fact of the matter is, TexasRules, you and all the Trump supporters have not walked the line. You have badly deviated (and I kind of think you know it). And one day the bill will come due. And what then? Because it'll never happen for my side, who have been consistent defenders of the Constitutional order you see so little value in, besides your almighty Second Amendment.

[TexasRules]

Didn't know impeachment was a left leaning idea. Did anyone tell the Republicans in the 90's? Or the founding fathers?

As for the rest of your post I was going to respond to it but that would be derailing the thread. But I will say, the only reason you are attacking the Democratic candidates is because Trump doesn't have a leg to stand on and it's his own fault.

So you are going to talk about only the past and not current events of this century. ok boomer. Look at my post history where I said impeaching Clinton was wrong. And if you want to bring up the founding fathers, they were worried that 1 party would use the impeachment as a weapon. Well low and behold, against Pelosi's own words, a partisan impeachment. Thanks for not derailing the thread with more inane pronouncements about the past and ignoring current events.
[Infraction]

[Twdft]

What do you do then? How do you think this ends well for you?

You actually think they will own up to supporting Trump?

The secret police in East Germany had at the end 1.7 million informants and employees within 17 million citizens. You get another impression talking to people after '89. There will be a fuckton of "Americans" who'll go like "nah I wore the hat ironically, never liked the guy"

[Skroe]

You actually think they will own up to supporting Trump?

The secret police in East Germany had at the end 1.7 million informants and employees within 17 million citizens. You get another impression talking to people after '89. There will be a fuckton of "Americans" who'll go like "nah I wore the hat ironically, never liked the guy"

Oh no, I don't expect them to own up at all. I've called this "the Great Retcon". They're going to retcon their support for Trump, the first President who everyone's neighbor voted for, but not them... nosiree.

And public figures? They're going to say very elaborate excuses about protecting priorities and institutions and being aghast at something. And a few will have some kind of half baked alabi.

But no, I don't expect them to own it. Which is why the rest of us, the majority of Americans, must spend years to come making them, frankly, eat the very shit they heaped upon this country. Don't let them get away with it. For a politician, supporting Trump is a career-ending failure. For a private citizen, supporting Trump was a moral authority and integrity-annihilating failure. They own it for ever, and they never stop paying for it.

No second chances. Not now. Not ever. They had a chances - multiple chances really - and they blew it.

[Stormdash]

Again he got impeached because of something he did just like Clinton for your narrative to work you literally have to ignore reality and pretend Trump's entire Ukraine shit show with Rudy never happened.

I've agree many times that it casts a dark cloud that will hang over his entire second term in office.

[Dontrike]

Impeaching on the grounds of Orange Man is pretty left-leaning, though. It's not middle America Democrats that are flogging this, it's a political loser with, like, every lost Obama voter that went for Trump... but Twitter and the Squad want it, and Pelosi is trying to sate them, quick and dirty and have it out of the way and forgotten before it can sink her majority.

So you think Pelosi is doing it because he's orange and not because of all of the illegal and immoral shit he does?

- - - Updated - - -

So you are going to talk about only the past and not current events of this century. ok boomer. Look at my post history where I said impeaching Clinton was wrong. And if you want to bring up the founding fathers, they were worried that 1 party would use the impeachment as a weapon. Well low and behold, against Pelosi's own words, a partisan impeachment. Thanks for not derailing the thread with more inane pronouncements about the past and ignoring current events.
[Infraction]

It's partisan because every Republican has chosen not to uphold the Constitution and fully go with Trump over their civic duties. Anyone with a brain can see what Trump did was fully illegal.

[Draco-Onis]

I've agree many times that it casts a dark cloud that will hang over his entire second term in office.

Then why are you purporting the orange man bad myth? Donald Trump is the reason he got impeached no one forced him to do any of this, he is a grown man who decided to fuck up his presidency. Democrats could hate him all they want if he didn't do anything they wouldn't be able to impeach him (see Obama republicans sure as heck tried).

[Kiri]

It's partisan because every Republican has chosen not to uphold the Constitution and fully go with Trump over their civic duties. Anyone with a brain can see what Trump did was fully illegal.

That seems to be the issue with the a lot of the Right in the US these days. They seem to truly consider themselves the 'Right', i.e. those who are always in the right. Probably also because the religious right is so strongly represented. When someone considers themselves to 'objectively' be in the right all the time, then naturally, everyone agreeing with them is just doing the sensible thing. And any disagreement can only be partisanship.
That's why they are often doubling down, even when proven wrong, I think.

[Spectral]

I want you to understand something. I'm not quite sure you do, so I'm going to put it plainly.

Trump is symptomatic. If he were to resign tomorrow, few things would suddenly get better. The biggest immediate benefit would be is that someone (Pence) less corrupt, self-interested and more loyal to the United States would be commander-in-chief and the security threat he represents would be mitigated. And were he to lose reelection in 2020, that would be 50% of the reason for being joys at seeing his back... the other half is a Democratic President opening up all White House records to investigators.

Of course I understand this well. A few months ago I wrote:

My impression is that Trump is a symptom rather than a cause. We'll see soon enough, but I have a pretty hard time seeing it improving any time soon.

What I think you're going to find wildly disappointing is that this isn't going to stop anytime soon. There's not going to be a restoration of True Conservatism where Americans suddenly realize that that they miss Bush era neoconservatism and have a deep and abiding trust for the federal bureaucracy and spy apparatuses. I don't know what the next manifestation of the cultural and institutional rot that the United States suffers from will be, but I don't expect to enjoy it.

The current Democratic group of candidates is also basically a joke - disliked by most people outside the Dem Party, a collection of the doddering elderly and people with no real accomplishments to their name. We're not headed for any restoration or reconciliation any time soon.

Face it, you're an ideological orphan now. You can make common cause with the other people in this thread on the basis of your shared hatred for Trump, but you and the National Review types will swiftly be back to being labeled as beyond all evil for your policy priorities once you help them get back in charge.
[Infraction]

[Levelfive]

That seems to be the issue with the a lot of the Right in the US these days. They seem to truly consider themselves the 'Right', i.e. those who are always in the right. Probably also because the religious right is so strongly represented. When someone considers themselves to 'objectively' be in the right all the time, then naturally, everyone agreeing with them is just doing the sensible thing. And any disagreement can only be partisanship.
That's why they are often doubling down, even when proven wrong, I think.

This article echoes that and was actually pretty illuminating for me, explaining things I had been puzzling over regarding evangelicals in particular:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-trump-915381/

[Different Strokes]

That seems to be the issue with the a lot of the Right in the US these days. They seem to truly consider themselves the 'Right', i.e. those who are always in the right. Probably also because the religious right is so strongly represented. When someone considers themselves to 'objectively' be in the right all the time, then naturally, everyone agreeing with them is just doing the sensible thing. And any disagreement can only be partisanship.
That's why they are often doubling down, even when proven wrong, I think.

I pointed this out a page or two ago, but those who follow Trump seem to be people whose natural inclinations on how to rule a nation are moving back to monarchies. To them, everything Trump says is correct, even if it directly goes against our codified laws.

In an empire or a kingdom or any other system ruled by one person, most of the time that person is above the law, and so much so in some to the point that that person CREATES the law. If you noticed, when Trump says something is illegal, his followers will bleat out that it's illegal as well, even if no such law exists. When Trump does something illegal, he will claim it is not illegal at all, and his followers will say the same.

These people want a monarch, an emperor. I have enough faith that America won't go the route of the galactic empire or nazi Germany and dissolve their constitution/republic in order to form an empire, but you can tell that's just what a lot of these folks want to happen.

It's why this impeachment, while it has exposed Trump's wrongdoings, will not go through. Trump has just enough of the Senate on his side to not be removed from his office. The people will have to remove Trump in 2020, assuming Trump even allows an election. Fully expect Trump to try and "delay" the election as much as he possibly can.