Saurfang broke the rules before Sylvanas did.

[Wangming]

Judging by the smoke coming from the blades, Sylvanas also used magic weapons.

[Vasaru]

I am going to bring this up since this apparently has and probably will not be addressed.

So we have the fight with Saurfang Vs Sylvanas. Personally their is more wrong with that entire cinematic, but I want to focus on a particular point.

In Orc culture and Horde tradition it is clearly stated you cannot under any circumstances use a magical weapon in a Makrok.

Saurfang took a weapon which had magical powers coursing through it and used it against Sylvanas.
Sylvanas used two daggers I guess you can call them.


For all purposes, Sylvanas was 100% in the right to use magic then since Saurfang shows he clearly gives no shit about the rules himself.

Not only is he a traitor, he is a hypocrite for using a dishonorable weapon in a honor duel.

You can cry all you want in Sylvie's defense and call Saurfang a traitor. Sylvanas have proved she never truly cared about the Horde anyway so why bother defending her?

[Yoshingo]

Nobody broke any rules, there is no rule stating you can't use magic.

There's no evidence to support this in the game's canon.

And the one and only place it is brought up is in the movie which is noncanon.

[Kajitheninja]

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Mak%27gora
1. no rule about magic or non magic
2. Sylvanas' weapons were clearly magic
3. Neither party disagreed on magic weapons

[Shakana]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mak%27gora

"The rules of a Mak'gora seem to be different between each Mak'gora, since they are chosen and set by the participants themselves. Generally, there are thus no specific rules. The only consistent theme in all Mak'gora is that the pair must fight to the death or until submission.

Magic, for example, has never been stated to be forbidden, and has, in fact, been used in multiple Mak'gora duels and thus seems to be permitted. Similarly, many Mak'gora duels have involved both fighters wearing body armor as well, but it can also be forbidden when explicitly required."

[Fetus Rex]

At this point mak'gora is a joke that has very little to do with orcish honor. If magic users are allowed to wield magic during duel then no powerless person will ever have a chance to win. It doesn't matter whether they are Garrosh, Saurfang or even Grommash.

[Jastall]

The worse part is, that Saurfang took a weapon he has NEVER used before to a life and death duel. Also dualwield > 1 weapon obviously

To be fair, Shalamayne is a pretty damn OP weapon in the first place and I'd expect a guy who has been warring for 40+ years, 20+ of these against humans, to know how a sword works even if he favors axes.

@Rozz I fully agree. The concept of Saurfang forcing a public confession out of Sylvanas by backing her into a corner makes some sense in a comic book writing way, but the execution is lacking. I get the symbolism of the fight- Saurfang turned what should have been an easy victory for Sylvanas into a challenge while pushing her buttons and she then overreacts- but it is really weird that in the span of five minutes, Sylvanas goes from being in control of the situation with the Forsaken ready to die for her, to fleeing after giving a villainous monologue and the Forsaken kind of decide their cult-like devotion to her is just so passé now.

[Kajitheninja]

Thrall didnt cheat though. In the original Mok'gora Thrall used elemental magic along with doomhammer which was allowed by garrosh, in the second mok'gora, which was a continuation of the first since it was interrupted by the scourge, Thrall's elemental magic would still be allowed. Mok'gora's rules are agreed upon by both parties and if one party doesnt agree then it doesnt happen that way.

[Shakana]

At this point mak'gora is a joke that has very little to do with orcish honor. If magic users are allowed to wield magic during duel then no powerless person will ever have a chance to win. It doesn't matter whether they are Garrosh, Saurfang or even Grommash.

Saurfang was the one wanting it. He knew she would use magic weapons, he knew who she was, he chose the rules for their Mak'gora himself by deliberately defying her into it. It's not a joke, but it's a joke for Sylvanas because she doesn't even have "honor" that is suppose to mean for orcs when refusing Mak'gora. That's why she even said "why should i accept your challenge?" Because she claimed many times she doesn't have honor. And yet and once again, Saurfang tries to make her accept it.

He chose his path and death. And died with his honor/dignity.

[Steelcryo]

Those slashes of darkness coming off her daggers and his wounds looked pretty magical from the get go to me. So if anything, he was just matching what she was doing.

[Fetus Rex]

Saurfang was the one wanting it. He knew she would use magic weapons, he knew who she was, he chose the rules for their Mak'gora himself by deliberately defying her into it. It's not a joke, but it's a joke for Sylvanas because she doesn't even have "honor" that is suppose to mean for orcs when refusing Mak'gora. That's why she even said "why should i accept your challenge?" Because she claimed many times she doesn't have honor. And yet and once again, Saurfang tries to make her accept it.

He chose his path and death. And died with his honor/dignity.

Mak'Gora is a joke because magic is allowed. In my opinion it invalidates coherency of Draenor clan's inner workings.

[Shakana]

Mak'Gora is a joke because magic is allowed. In my opinion it invalidates coherency of Draenor clan's inner workings.

Well, times changes, never in history too an undead would be a Warchief of the horde that is a banshee and it's capable of many things and being resurrected everytime and that everytime it comes to life she comes back more crazy than before. So there is that.

- - - Updated - - -

Not forgetting she holds Xal'atath

[Fetus Rex]

Well, times changes, never in history too an undead would be a Warchief of the horde that is a banshee and it's capable of many things and being resurrected everytime and that everytime it comes to life she comes back more crazy than before. So there is that.

- - - Updated - - -

Not forgetting she holds Xal'atath

Whatever she is, the direction writers went with it is simply anti climatic. Mak'Gora was a simple test of martial skill, now it is all gone. Just another power level contest.

[Hero2Zer0]

I am going to bring this up since this apparently has and probably will not be addressed.

So we have the fight with Saurfang Vs Sylvanas. Personally their is more wrong with that entire cinematic, but I want to focus on a particular point.

In Orc culture and Horde tradition it is clearly stated you cannot under any circumstances use a magical weapon in a Makrok.

Saurfang took a weapon which had magical powers coursing through it and used it against Sylvanas.
Sylvanas used two daggers I guess you can call them.


For all purposes, Sylvanas was 100% in the right to use magic then since Saurfang shows he clearly gives no shit about the rules himself.

Not only is he a traitor, he is a hypocrite for using a dishonorable weapon in a honor duel.

what about the daggers and the purple glow everytime they landed a blow?

[Eazy]

Except for where it isn't, because as per A Good War Sylvanas realized Saurfang fucked up the plan and that she'll have to salvage it somehow before Delaryn even appeared on her radar as a thing that exists. Hell, even going by the earlier cinematic, the height of Sylvanas' emotion in her exchange with Delaryn was her making a smug smile. And even then her delivery that followed that smile was as aloof as the rest of her dialogue. Sylvanas only shows some irritation in that scene when she had to repeat herself to the Horde members that were focused in executing the earlier plan.

Let's be real here. He just went fully edgy emo teen there.

[Shakana]

Whatever she is, the direction writers went with it is simply anti climatic. Mak'Gora was a simple test of martial skill, now it is all gone. Just another power level contest.

If you ask me, i think Mak'gora shouldn't be done with Sylvanas at all. I think that was the biggest mistake. She wants death and she is challenged to a death contest that is simply impossible to a warrior, High Overlord win.

They could either/Instead:
1. Start with trying to attack. Sylvanas could indeed kill those many people, and raise the humans as forsaken. She could end up being heavily injured by anduin using his sword Shalamayne, he never fights tho, he is an aristocrat priest, but i wanted to see that the background promotion of Anduin and Sylvanas would turn out to be true. He is like there in silence, just goes with everyone everywhere and does nothing but looking and having a talk with Sylvanas that is more like a pep talk to her, as it gets her with the feeling that they are just so sad and pathetic.
Then Sylvanas would walk away injured from Orgrimmar do the same speech she did after getting scratched and the horde and alliance would still try to make peace and be against her.
2. All this but with Saurfang fighting still with Anduin's sword since he is a priest and all. And still die with honor. 6min battle could have been more than just pity talk and an avada kedavra in the end and a team rocket.

If she died there, she has only one more Val'kyr left too. And what would be of her without more chances to be resurrected? She would just simply stop having her goals, as she doesn't know what she can do next. If she died once again, it's done. No more.

But with Mak'gora no one can be inside the fights, so no one can oppose of fight along aside Sylvanas + her powerful power, it would destroy them too.
I think that's why they choose the path of Mak'gora. She is suppose to have loads of followers, and Saurfang dismantled her in front of them all. Without anyone else being attacked and making them understand how she has other plans and even the undead are now probably really confused and hating her for saying that.

Some of the undead accept their fate and serve the forsaken, others rebels to it, others kill themselves, many of the undead can't deal with being undeads, and then Sylvanas saying they are nothing, all new generation of undead and even the original ones feel they are already nothing, and that's why they even serve their Banshee Queen, that started vengeance against Arthas. And now she is too becoming one nihilistic b**** that don't seem to even care about her people's fate anymore.

[Hero2Zer0]

I'm still trying to understand why the emotionless and apathetic Banshee Queen is suddenly so hotheaded and off her rocker for these cinematics...

that and how she won the duel and still had to leave for some reason?

I believe she left after saying something along the lines of fuck the horde.

[Raven]

If you ask me, i think Mak'gora shouldn't be done with Sylvanas at all. I think that was the biggest mistake. She wants death and she is challenged to a death contest that is simply impossible to a warrior, High Overlord win.

They could either/Instead:
1. Start with trying to attack. Sylvanas could indeed kill those many people, and raise the humans as forsaken. She could end up being heavily injured by anduin using his sword Shalamayne, he never fights tho, he is an aristocrat priest, but i wanted to see that the background promotion of Anduin and Sylvanas would turn out to be true. He is like there in silence, just goes with everyone everywhere and does nothing but looking and having a talk with Sylvanas that is more like a pep talk to her, as it gets her with the feeling that they are just so sad and pathetic.
Then Sylvanas would walk away injured from Orgrimmar do the same speech she did after getting scratched and the horde and alliance would still try to make peace and be against her.
2. All this but with Saurfang fighting still with Anduin's sword since he is a priest and all. And still die with honor. 6min battle could have been more than just pity talk and an avada kedavra in the end and a team rocket.

He never fights ? tell that to the Troll at Battle for Azeroth Cinematic Trailer that got crushed into the ground.

[Faroth]

Sylvanas used two daggers I guess you can call them.

The two daggers that were emitting smoke from the very beginning? They seemed pretty magic to me. Even if they're just poison, that's against rules too, no?

- - - Updated - - -

Gonna just call bullshit on this entire thing. We've seen many Mak'gora under many different circumstances and many different rulesets, both traditional and non. Suffice to say the only thing we can clearly state is that the rules of a Mak'gora are whatever the participants decide they are at the time.

I notice you did not, for example, call foul on the fact that neither participant was clad solely in a loincloth.

That was my other thought.

Plus the weapons weren't blessed by a shaman.

[Kallisto]

I don't get why people that are Pro-Sylvanas try to use the logic of her enemies to justify in her favor? She literally doesn't give a rat's ass about honor or the Horde, whatever she wants to accomplish, is bigger than that.

Because up until her outbursts her internal thoughts had her caring about the horde and the Forsaken and Blood Elves first and foremost in the horde. At this point we have to go with three ways.

A) The outburst was that of her lying to everyone basically how a child goes "I hate you!" to their parents when told no.
B) Those writing these events (Basically written during end or WoD or Legion) forgot about her internal thoughts.
C) We'll pull off her mask when we capture her and underneath we find Sylvanas was Deadpool this entire time.