What if the writing made sense and Sylvanas simply

[Berndorf]

I think it was pretty clear that he knew he was in over his head. In my opinion the goal was to last long enough to goad her into exposing her true stance on things. Which obviously he succeeded in doing.

What I don't understand about Sylvanas' character arc is, at the start of Legion she generally seemed like she was about doing the right thing: she saved Varian's ass once during the assault on the Broken Shore, and retreated not out of cowardice but out of desperation when Vol'jin was gravely injured. The fact that she sounded the retreat on his behalf - however awful it worked out for the alliance - was largely a benevolent act. And even when Vol'jin chose Sylvanas as warchief, there was reluctance on her part, not 'NYAH HAHA, AT LAST THE POWER IS MINE'. I know she tried to enslave Eyir, but that could be seen as an act of desperation as she was running out of Valkyr.

So what happened between then and BFA's prepatch to turn her into a hope-killing 'mad queen'?
.

Its mostly called different writers with different ideas on where to take her character.

[Darth-Piekus]

Oh she would absolutely wipe the floor with Thrall post-Cata. Remember, his inner turmoil over the way he handled Garrosh in Draenor weakened his ties to the elements, to such a degree he couldn't even wield the Doomhammer anymore.

Literally zero doubt in my mind that he'd be a corpse at her feet, in short order.

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Except Sylvanas is much more powerful than before now, the magic she used to one-shot Saurfang was something that Jaina hadn't seen before (e.g. very bad).

I agree that in a fight where magic was allowed, Thalyssra might do okay (I said that in another post actually) but in melee/hand to hand? We've seen nothing to indicate she would have even a slight chance against Sylvanas.

Have in mind though that Thalysra and Thrall are leagues above Saurfang. While it is true that she has some new powers but it could be nothing significant. True it is a new type of magic but that doesn't mean that she suddenly became invulnerable. While Thrall has been nerfed after Garrosh he is getting back his powers. The only question is what can her new powers do? Are the writers gonna use it as plot armor and how much can that protect her. It is obvious now that she lost her Horde protection which was a huge plot armor. She is now left with nothing but a few loyalists. So it depends on the writers. In my opinion her story is done at this point.

[jellmoo]

I mean... <Points at all the ridiculously stupid decisions Sylvanas made during this expansion>

I think it's pretty fair to assume that Saurfang's gamble was a pretty sure thing. She 100% was going to do the stupidest thing possible in any situation.

[Donald Hellscream]

I don't know, being triggered by being called a fucking failure does seem par the course for Sylvanas.

[Mehrunes]

Because frankly there's no one among the horde that could beat her under the circumstances of the Mak'gorah. If magic was allowed, Thalyssra *might* had stood a chance against the normal Sylvanas but currently she's much more powerful than that.

Sylvanas silences magic with her Banshee screaming powers so no, Thalyssra might not stood a chance against Sylvanas even if Sylvanas was forced to fight with a spoon.

I've never heard players complain this much about writing for any other expansion. The story isn't over yet. You act like you can write a better story but you're not writers. You act like you can make a better game but you're not game developers.

That's why I love this site. It's chock full of big game developers and award winning writers who can come around and show Blizzard where they are going wrong....oh...

Jesus Christ, do people not tire of this fallacious defense? Also, since when does Blizzard have award winning writers?

She died there, lol.

Because she deliberately fell on Saronite spikes, precisely because the fall alone would not be enough?

[Gref]

such a high end thinker losing her shit after a few words. This is shitty writing. She carefully, patiently planned for years and she lost her shit after hearing The horde is strong. Like wtf? I feel sorry for the cinematic guys. They do a terrific job but the writing..ugh...

[Jotaux]

such a high end thinker losing her shit after a few words. This is shitty writing. She carefully, patiently planned for years and she lost her shit after hearing The horde is strong. Like wtf? I feel sorry for the cinematic guys. They do a terrific job but the writing..ugh...

Her losing her cool is not poor writing, she does that all the time. The rest of her behavior over BFA is shitty writing.

[Donald Hellscream]

such a high end thinker losing her shit after a few words. This is shitty writing. She carefully, patiently planned for years and she lost her shit after hearing The horde is strong. Like wtf? I feel sorry for the cinematic guys. They do a terrific job but the writing..ugh...

She kinda offed herself after finding out that Bolvar was the new Lich King, if that isn't losing her cool I don't know what is.

[Tiwack]

How would that have worked out any different from this outcome? If anything that would've underlined her selfserving dishonor even further. Vainglory stands to fall, it'll trip up itself, Saurfang sacrificed himself betting on that, sort of winning back the horde almost like hellscream did yayback. Only we get to pull the killing blow this time.

[Firefall]

I think it was pretty clear that he knew he was in over his head. In my opinion the goal was to last long enough to goad her into exposing her true stance on things. Which obviously he succeeded in doing.

What I don't understand about Sylvanas' character arc is, at the start of Legion she generally seemed like she was about doing the right thing: she saved Varian's ass once during the assault on the Broken Shore, and retreated not out of cowardice but out of desperation when Vol'jin was gravely injured. The fact that she sounded the retreat on his behalf - however awful it worked out for the alliance - was largely a benevolent act. And even when Vol'jin chose Sylvanas as warchief, there was reluctance on her part, not 'NYAH HAHA, AT LAST THE POWER IS MINE'. I know she tried to enslave Eyir, but that could be seen as an act of desperation as she was running out of Valkyr.

So what happened between then and BFA's prepatch to turn her into a hope-killing 'mad queen'?

One thousand times this, thank you. I'm so sick of everyone pretending everything about her wasn't retconned. People are like "lol she has always been crazy and evil and you are an idiot if you think otherwise lul" and it just isn't the case, they destroyed her character in that gap between Legion to the Prepatch with no explanation given. They retconned even inner monologues and thoughts and stuff. They called the retconning "lies." Are we supposed to believe she is so much of a liar that even her thoughts were lies?

[Devilyaki]

She lead the Horde pretty well. Thanks to her they invaded Ashenvale and Darskhore like it was a piece of cake. The Night Elves threat is gone forever.

Didn’t that create a crazy night elf goddess now, night warrior or whatever..

[keldarepewpew]

Horrible writing at its finest.

[Powerogue]

Because she's a sadistic, evil monster who's out to crush hope. She could've killed him instantly, and only even agreed to the duel to kill him slowly, crush his hope, and with it, the hope of the entire world.

You have to keep in mind this is the same villain who thought the best way to get the night elves to stop fighting was to set 900+ innocent civilians on fire in their homes. We could have looted that, as sold to the goblins, but...



Everyone's so eager to jump on "lol terrible writing" without actually looking back on the writing and seeing how the things tie together. Admittedly, not usually Blizzard's strong suit historically (vanilla and earlier WoW very much favored small, contained stories), but something they've made a point to do much more thoroughly as of the last few expansions.

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Didn’t that create a crazy night elf goddess now, night warrior or whatever..

Who is currently dead set on hunting her to the ends of the earth like Maiev to Illidan Stormrage, yes.

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What I don't understand about Sylvanas' character arc is, at the start of Legion she generally seemed like she was about doing the right thing: she saved Varian's ass once during the assault on the Broken Shore, and retreated not out of cowardice but out of desperation when Vol'jin was gravely injured. The fact that she sounded the retreat on his behalf - however awful it worked out for the alliance - was largely a benevolent act. And even when Vol'jin chose Sylvanas as warchief, there was reluctance on her part, not 'NYAH HAHA, AT LAST THE POWER IS MINE'. I know she tried to enslave Eyir, but that could be seen as an act of desperation as she was running out of Valkyr.

So what happened between then and BFA's prepatch to turn her into a hope-killing 'mad queen'?

She's always ruled the Forsaken through sharing her cruel hopelessness with them. Abandon your former lives, take up arms against those who would revile you as monsters. We are a new force, and you are mine to command. She simply extended that method of ruling outwards, the azerite and apparent weakness of the Alliance's new king giving her newfound ambition.

Listening to her, you can tell she thinks honor is worthless, and hope will inevitably be crushed (like hers during her death), so you're better off without it.

As for saving the Horde, it's hard to say, outside of that obviously herself is contained in that, and she wasn't about to let herself die. Or the faintest glimpse of an actual moral compass buried under there? Impossible to say, as everything she's done and said since has been tainted with lies designed to get others to follow her. She seems capable of showing sentiment and emotion, but it's dulled, blackened, and shriveled.

[leggomydairy]

such a high end thinker losing her shit after a few words. This is shitty writing. She carefully, patiently planned for years and she lost her shit after hearing The horde is strong. Like wtf?

This made me laugh out loud for five minutes straight.

I just got done playing the most disappointing series of quests for this disgustingly forced war campaign (Alli side, NE main...) and it’s like?? All of a sudden everyone stops going “Horde v Alliance” and immediately start going “Us v Sylvanas” and I’m like??? Where did this come from?? That’s it??

We get all prepared dramatically for her to have her exit and then decide we’re all one?? What even is going on

[eurojust]

Didn’t that create a crazy night elf goddess now, night warrior or whatever..

You mean the cheap night warrior power-up? Not only Tyrande wasn't even able to catch Nathanos, but it seems that she is only focused on Sylvanas and has already forgiven the Horde.
So my point still stands about the leadership of the Horde.

[Kaleredar]

I guess Saurfang learned from Delaryn that Sylvanas' trigger word is "hope".

It's pretty similiar, Sylvanas has a clear cut plan, then someone does something unexpected (more or less), she has a little monologue with said person, said person mentions "hope", Sylvanas throws a trantrum and does / says something stupid.

Doesn't even Nathanos mention that Sylvanas even had a backup plan for this outcome?
So, in other words, she included her own stupidity into her plan? Is this smart or stupid?

I think he triggered her by correctly pointing out what she was:

A failure.


Failed to defend Silvermoon. Failed to hold down her own city when Varimathras and Putress rebelled. Failed to take Gilneas. Failed to identify Godfrey working right under her nose. Failed to convert Eyir to her. Failed to stem off the alliance attack assaulting Undercity. Failed to get the Alliance and horde to kill eachother in Nazjatar. Failed to defeat the Night Elves in Darkshore.

Like Saurfang said: She just. Keeps. Failing.

And she acts smug and smarmy and above it all, as if everything is going to plan all the while. But she's just a failure, again and again and again.

Pointing that out probably ticked her off.

[Eazy]

But the fact that Sylvanas is way stronger than she looks has been canon since Cata.

I don't get it? Of course she's strong, but I'm not sure what you mean by "is way stronger than she looks since Cata", because she indeed looks strong anyway. And what did she do in Cata? I don't remember anything spectacular?

Because she deliberately fell on Saronite spikes, precisely because the fall alone would not be enough?

Are you sure about that? Because I think that the fall would indeed be enough.
She died from the head-shot. She isn't invincible.
I know it's fantasy world, but if a simple bullet is enough for her to die, then a fall from highs on the ground would be even more deadly.

[Kokolums]

cut Saurfang's head off after she had him down. His plan would've been completely fucked.

What was his plan to "expose" her anyway?


Thrall: You can't win, she's gonna kick your ass then have her army rain death on us cause they're behind a giant wall and we're just standing here in the open like dumbasses. Also, Baine is a bitch.

Saurfang: I know, but maybe I can trick her into saying something mean about the Horde and they will all abandon her based on that alone.

Thrall: Ah alright gg


Blizzard you have the shittiest writers

The PLOT TWIST of the cinematic was that Sylvanas is an idiot.

[Aeula]

Why the fuck didn't she just deathblast the three of them before they could even open their mouths?

It seems even Sylvanas falls to the plague of death that is 'honor'.

[Angeredsoul]

Facing a banshee Queen, with zero Death knight backup? Absolute madness, where is Mograine and the boys?