What if the writing made sense and Sylvanas simply

[Eazy]

They discuss it right after the cinematic that they have no clue what she did and couldn't even sense it as being magic. So you're guess is as wrong as my guess because there is no info on it yet.

Did you listen to and read all the post cinematic discussions?

Yes, and that proves nothing. Just because something was powerful or undetecable it doesn't mean she could win with them - otherwise she would use that to kill them. But she didn't, because she couldn't.
So your argument is pretty much pointless.

[bullseyed]

Let's not forget she has been shot, stabbed, raked by claws, forcibly separated and put back as a spirit all in the same body and didn't fly off the handle during any of those times and instead came back pissed off even more. It's so out of character for her to ruin her plan over a small cut.

Do we have enough evidence to actually claim that this has ruined her plan?

She has done a bit of "the plan is A" "A doesn't work out" "ah but the plan was actually B, I just wanted people to think it was A so that B would happen!"

We don't know how much of that was bullshit versus real.


When she goes to talk to Nathanos and move on with the next stage of her plan, it sounds like this was all expected. Weaken the armies with fighting, let them unite over hatred of you, then lead them to their doom while they chase you. That being said it looked like she knew she screwed up when she said it. Unless she was acting?

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I don't think Saurfang planned on her outing herself. I think he hoped to just beat her and prevent horde vs horde bloodshed.

He didn't plan for her to say that. He also didn't plan to beat her. He literally says "1 person dies instead of hundreds/thousands/whatever" before doing it.

What he expected was she'd beat the shit out of him and that it would make everyone else reconsider following her when they saw him get massacred.

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That's why Mak'gorah is such a stupid and lazy way to end war-sized conflicts.

It isn't intended to end war-sized conflicts. The two people battling for warchief are both supposed to support war instead of being a coward.

Strength and honor is the moto for a reason. Strength comes before honor. A warchief must be strong.

[Mehrunes]

Her body isn't invincible, so it would just be destroyed into pieces. I know it's fantasy world, but WoW follows the same law of physics as our world.

You're arguing against a canon source at this point. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here.

First of all - Genn won that fight. She lost, she didn't even fight back. Gripped tightly that bow and... that's all. She couldn't finish him.
Second - she didn't even felt him coming untill he actually said her name, otherwise he would have probably shred her to pieces.
Third - he didn't want to kill her, just wanted to take her future. And he accomplished his goal, unlike Windrunner who just did:

Jesus Christ, are you seriously still trying to push your nonsensical theory that Sylvanas couldn't finish Genn that lost consciousness after that fight? And are you seriously still claiming that Genn that didn't even scratch Sylvanas when landing a direct hit on her face would shred her to pieces? I mean, you do you, but neither of those claims are logical arguments. Genn may have achieved his secret objective but he did nothing to Sylvanas herself, collapsed from poison and had to be hauled out from there by his allies as Sylvanas ignored the shit out of him. That doesn't constitute Genn winning the fight itself.

People who tighten their fists shows that they are fighting with something they cannot win, so it's the normal behaviour of someone who's angry because he lost.

That's the behavior of someone that was pissed because their magical lantern was smashed. Come the hell on. On one hand you're trying to handwave away a canon source with "WoW follows the same law of physics" (which it totally does, that's why we power our vehicles with Fel magic just like the Legion), on the other hand you're trying to construct some alternate reality where Genn's unconscious ass was some indestructible object that Sylvanas couldn't do anything against. How does that work, exactly?

Just as she did in Battle of Undercity, right? Don't make me laugh here. Jaina is more powerful, her level is beyond that Sylvanas has EVER shown.
It was enough for her to make a magic ship to destroy that puny walls and frozen the plague. She didn't stand a chance, she lost there also. She had to abandon the city, she knew she was surrounded and coudln't win so ran away.

Do you have a source saying she tried to do so there? No? You're pulling things out of the nether instead, you say? Who's making whom laugh here, again? And wow, Jaina destroyed a wall. That is totally relevant to a topic of Sylvanas vs Jaina because Sylvanas is akin to a wall, I guess. And speaking of levels beyond anything anyone has shown, Dar'khan was basically a mage god when he got Anveena to act as his personal magic battery. Sylvanas still silenced him. Long before she got her power ups from her pact with the Val'kyr and whatever she was doing in BfA. And Sylvanas deliberately left at Undercity. That was the whole point of her strategy from the get go. Also, Blizzard outright called Lordaeron a Horde victory at some point prior to release of Dazar'alor raid.

Animals don't know anything about metals and they surely defend themselves from the knives and other sharp tools, so that argument is pointless.

Animals defend themselves from knives now? How, exactly? Animals may avoid attacks with knives or attack the attacker before the attacker gets them. Your comparison is not only built in a false premise, but also has little applicability to magic combat. And sure, Jaina and Thalyssra could avoid Sylvanas' attack. But good luck with that given its range. And they could attack her before she gets them with it. Again, good luck with it given its range. And activation speed. At which point you'd need actual defenses. And how is a caster supposed to ward against a magical attack they don't even understand?

Too bad she didn't do that in the game or cinematic. She may used that on some weak peasant once and that's all. Anduin would be good enough to shield their partners and make them resistant to that.

Peasants, elite Thalassian army protecting the Sunwell with Anesterian and the Scourge forces assaulting it. What's the difference lel. Obviously to someone who knows nothing about the topic they're trying to talk about there's none. And never mind that it was so effective it scared Arthas as a potential threat despite him having complete control over her at the time and not ever entertaining a thought it'd ever change. Also, what happened to your "the same law of physics as our world."? Especially since in this case it'd actually apply, because there's zero indication that peasants in WoW have somehow much more fragile bones than non-peasants.

So yeah... Nothing in the whole WoW lore, game, cineamtics, books or whatever points that she could win with such a powerful opponents. She wouldn't stand a chance against them.

Except from the plenty of sources that indicate as such just fine, to which you provided no actual counterargument because you don't know those sources to begin with, as you made explicitly clear in this post.

And that's a head-cannon right there mate. It was Sylvanas who ran away from Malfurion.

Uh-huh. Malfurion runs away from her in A Good War three times (after his bout with Lorash, after he demolished the inn where Saurfang stayed and after Horde breached into Darkshore) but sure, that's totally head-canon

<video snip>
Can we actually stop using that Sylvanas vs Malfurion? It gives nothing to the discussion, when she fought with him at the culminant point in the game she was kneeling and moaning with pain with less HP and we all know that she told Saurfang she couldn't win without him(the short novel).

Can we use the in-game portrayal of it? Sure. Because it's not canon due to the fact that A Good War came afterwards and showed a different thing. And newer lore retcons older lore in case of conflict. But you don't even seem to know something as basic. And please, the statement Sylvanas provided specifically in regards to her bout with Malfurion was that he was wasting her time. When she talks about how the victory couldn't have happened without Saurfang she's talking about the campaign as a whole, which is clear if you don't cherry-pick out a quarter of her sentence.

And as it was proven dozen of times - her silence abilites may be working or some low-class mages. Not on someone as powerful as Jaina or Thalyssra.

When has been proven dozen of times, exactly? Because just in this post what you proved in regard to that tangent is that you're completely clueless about it.

And I'm talking facts. Not something "she could've done that" - welp, but she didn't. So that means she couldn't.

Sylvanas didn't jump in that cinematic either. By your "logic" it means she couldn't. Super valid train of thought you got here. Never mind that that Sylvanas' whole post-snap dialogue was about how insignificant everyone present is in her eyes, comparing the Alliance to toy soldiers and the Horde forces standing with them to beasts, indicating that to her they were insignificant pests no worth of her time.

And no, you're not talking anything even remotely related to facts. You're making illogical and fallacious non-arguments in regards to a topic you made it blatantly clear (in pretty much every single paragraph of this post) you're completely and utterly ignorant about.

Too bad she didn't use that, yeah? Welp, probably because their opponents were too strong for that. And she wouldn't even touch any of them, maybe one person, the rest would have wrecked her immediately.

Too bad this is as illogical of an argument as it was when you made it a paragraph ago.

Never mind that the same exact goddamn thing would apply to her opponents. So going by your logic here none of the things that they could do against Sylvanas like you claimed earlier on would have actually worked against her because welp, they didn't use those things. Whoops, you just completely demolished your earlier arguments. And the best thing is that you obviously didn't realize that.

Tagging @Aeula so they don't have to bother replying the same thing.

[bullseyed]

Not that garrosh or vol'jin were any better, so it runs in family.

Almost like there are bad writers in charge and it has nothing to do with the characters.

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Vol'jin did send his troops to fight the Iron Juggernaut and he still got ridiculized for it since they decided to run into its saws and all

Kif, I sent wave after wave of my own men until the killbots reached the maximum on their kill counters!

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That's literally what she says in the loyalist ending cutscene

The thing is we have no way of telling if that's true or if she's just an unreliable narrator.

And it would be nice to be able to discuss that, but most people here seem incapable of understanding concepts more complicated than "purple lady bad".

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Mate, if the writing made sense the Alliance would have triumphed in the War of Thorns.

You're only saying that because the scale in game is nothing like what the scale is supposed to be. The Horde outnumbered the Alliance 100 to 1 at Darkshore.

Unless you're referring to Undercity, where everyone would have died to blight even with superior forces for the Alliance.

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Not sure it has anything to do with the actual corpses. Her win state seems to be feeding souls into the 'hungering darkness'

Right, she wants souls which come from dead people. Corpses are a byproduct. Unclear if she can raise them as mindless undead and still keep their soul.

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NZoth has a high chance of either dying or going inside knaifu in 8.3

It seems that way, but then how do we get black empire in 9.0 and who is the next big villain to chase?

With the black dragon stuff and black empire hints already in game, it seems we are going to lose to N'zoth. That will justify the level squish as well.

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Sylvanas has a severe issue about being called out a failure.
You call her out on her failings and she just flips her sh*t like a monkey on crack.

Saurfang knew he could not beat an undead banshee spirit thing with a basic axe so he tried to goad her into showing all the horde that she don't give a damn about any of them (goal being to take orgrimmar and unite horde without bloodshed).
Sylvanas wanted to play with saurfang like a sadistic f*ck but that exactly gave saurfang enough time to hurt her precious feelings and trigger some issues.

She underestimated saurfangs plan (thinking he was literally just going for a duel) and she underestimated saurfang's attack (both verbal and the twin-sword eye slice).
The verbal humiliation incensed her and the eye slicing certainly did not help calm her down...

Saurfang then baited her with the HORDE IS STRONG yell in her face which with the eye slice caused her to reactively start hating on saurfangs precious horde which she obviously despises and can't pretend any more to care about.

Not only does she flat out say she dont give a fck about horde and considers them useless cannon fodder - but she takes a dump on their culture, tradition and MUH HONOR by saying they are dumb animals and then finishing the "sacred makgora" with what is probably against its rules (shadow magic yamato cannon in makgora probably not legal).

The whole situation reminds me of the old movie with jack nicholson as army general being prosecuted and tom cruse as the army lawyer (YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH quite/meme).

The vast majority of what you claim here didn't happen, though.

She literally said the Horde doesn't matter, but she said it in the CONTEXT of saying that NOTHING matters. That all of life (orcs, humans, elves, trolls, everyone) is as useless and meaningless as livestock. All life on Azeroth is a science experiment by the titans. The titans are merely pawns of the gods of life, death, void, fel, arcane and light. It all can be wiped out in seconds by cosmic powers we have no hope of defeating, if those powers felt like it.


Really the biggest problem is (and has been) that we've actually beaten some of those more powerful beings. We should have had no hope of beating Argus in Legion (and we didn't, the other titans helped). We should have had no hope of imprisoning Sargeras. We should have had no hope of defeating old gods. Illidan should have had no hope of resisting the command of the uh glowing light deity guy whose name I forgot. And she's right... those were all bad writing. We have won many battles in WoW that we had no reason to be in, much less survive, much less win.


Anyways, despite all of that, we still die. No one has beaten death. Death is the best cosmic power, because it is the only one who never loses. Whenever the other powers fight each other... void vs light, fel vs life, etc... people die. They weaken, death grows. She's terrified of death, because she is only of the only people who has ever actually died and come back. She understands the power of death in a way no one else does. She understands death is inevitable. So she embraces it, at the cost of anything and everything.

But the next step logically is... why? Say Death agrees to let her live forever, as long as she works to kill everything and keep feeding souls. What point does living have for her if everyone else is dead? The only answer we know is she would escape the eternal torment everyone else is going to be subject to. Unless they get lost like Vol'jin. To walk in the shadow...lands.

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So what happened between then and BFA's prepatch to turn her into a hope-killing 'mad queen'?

Well, we know she somehow came into contact with Azshara and made a deal. So she probably knows what Azshara and N'zoth are planning.

Whatever that is, she knew there was no hope of beating. And somehow whatever she is doing now will keep her alive.

[Eucep]

And I'm mainly here 'how does Thrall know that Saurfang cannot win, how does Saurfang know he cannot win?'. To date other then her ability to shift to smoke form, they never really saw anything of her physical prowess.

But I understand the writing, this was to mirror the Wrathgate as much as possible. Even if that much was not needed.

It would have been way more interesting if they went in far more sure of their abilities and to get surprised there. Giving a way bigger 'what the heck has Sylvanas done?!' moment.

But what most people ignore on her hissy-fit, she did it deliberate, the cinematic makes it a point to show she is thinking of what she is going to say..

[Eazy]

Jesus Christ, are you seriously still trying to push your nonsensical theory that Sylvanas couldn't finish Genn that lost consciousness after that fight? And are you seriously still claiming that Genn that didn't even scratch Sylvanas when landing a direct hit on her face would shred her to pieces? I mean, you do you, but neither of those claims are logical arguments. Genn may have achieved his secret objective but he did nothing to Sylvanas herself, collapsed from poison and had to be hauled out from there by his allies as Sylvanas ignored the shit out of him. That doesn't constitute Genn winning the fight itself.

Then why she didn't? Because she was afraid of something?
Anyway, I have right that she couldn't sense him. If the didn't say anything she wouldn't be able to counter the ambush, and that's a fact, she wasn't even looking at the ceiling when he was there.

That's the behavior of someone that was pissed because their magical lantern was smashed. Come the hell on. On one hand you're trying to handwave away a canon source with "WoW follows the same law of physics" (which it totally does, that's why we power our vehicles with Fel magic just like the Legion), on the other hand you're trying to construct some alternate reality where Genn's unconscious ass was some indestructible object that Sylvanas couldn't do anything against. How does that work, exactly?

You didn't get my point. It's like saying it's fine when you cut of Anduin head and his head is going to float around Sylvanas and whisper some kinky shit because we live in a fantasy world. There are limits. And Sylvanas didn't kill Genn there, so she was either dumb or weak.

Do you have a source saying she tried to do so there? No? You're pulling things out of the nether instead, you say? Who's making whom laugh here, again? And wow, Jaina destroyed a wall. That is totally relevant to a topic of Sylvanas vs Jaina because Sylvanas is akin to a wall, I guess. And speaking of levels beyond anything anyone has shown, Dar'khan was basically a mage god when he got Anveena to act as his personal magic battery. Sylvanas still silenced him. Long before she got her power ups from her pact with the Val'kyr and whatever she was doing in BfA. And Sylvanas deliberately left at Undercity. That was the whole point of her strategy from the get go. Also, Blizzard outright called Lordaeron a Horde victory at some point prior to release of Dazar'alor raid.

She tried to do what? Running away? If she could've done that, she certainly would, but she didn't. She was powerless, fear of her life and ran away.

Nice strategy - losing a city and running away.

Animals defend themselves from knives now? How, exactly? Animals may avoid attacks with knives or attack the attacker before the attacker gets them. Your comparison is not only built in a false premise, but also has little applicability to magic combat. And sure, Jaina and Thalyssra could avoid Sylvanas' attack. But good luck with that given its range. And they could attack her before she gets them with it. Again, good luck with it given its range. And activation speed. At which point you'd need actual defenses. And how is a caster supposed to ward against a magical attack they don't even understand?

Animals still got fangs/hard skin/shields, just as Jaina still has her own magic, which is superior to the one Sylvanas has. Just because you don't understand something it doesn't mean it's stronger than the power you posses. That's just foolish thinking.

Peasants, elite Thalassian army protecting the Sunwell with Anesterian and the Scourge forces assaulting it. What's the difference lel. Obviously to someone who knows nothing about the topic they're trying to talk about there's none. And never mind that it was so effective it scared Arthas as a potential threat despite him having complete control over her at the time and not ever entertaining a thought it'd ever change. Also, what happened to your "the same law of physics as our world."? Especially since in this case it'd actually apply, because there's zero indication that peasants in WoW have somehow much more fragile bones than non-peasants.

You're comparing elite Thalassian armies to the most powerful heroes of Azeroth? Like seriously?

Except from the plenty of sources that indicate as such just fine, to which you provided no actual counterargument because you don't know those sources to begin with, as you made explicitly clear in this post.

Like what sources?
She RAN AWAY. She said that she want everyone DEAD and she DIDN'T KILL THEM. She RAN AWAY. It's like obvious. Jaina is superior to her, she completely destroyed her strategy with plague in the Undercity, and what did she do? Nothing, she ran away SECOND time.
Why she didn't kill them there?
Why she didn't silence Jaina?

Pro-tip: she couldn't.

Uh-huh. Malfurion runs away from her in A Good War three times (after his bout with Lorash, after he demolished the inn where Saurfang stayed and after Horde breached into Darkshore) but sure, that's totally head-canon

Yeah, because that was unfair fight. They were with the horde army. In 1v1 she was losing(inb4 that stupid "she throws him once" argument, yeah - like me pushing Mike Tyson on the ground mean I'm stronger than him ).

Can we use the in-game portrayal of it? Sure. Because it's not canon due to the fact that A Good War came afterwards and showed a different thing. And newer lore retcons older lore in case of conflict. But you don't even seem to know something as basic. And please, the statement Sylvanas provided specifically in regards to her bout with Malfurion was that he was wasting her time. When she talks about how the victory couldn't have happened without Saurfang she's talking about the campaign as a whole, which is clear if you don't cherry-pick out a quarter of her sentence.

What? They don't exclude each other. In the Good War we don't see the scene when she was kneeling and moaning, because the writer doesn't have to explain everything, it was from the Saurfang perspective, so he probably didn't see it.
And yup, she still told him that she couldn't win without his axe in the back move.

When has been proven dozen of times, exactly? Because just in this post what you proved in regard to that tangent is that you're completely clueless about it.

Because she used that ability how many times? A few? While not using it on the characters we're discussing about. So that's pretty much pointless, we can just guess she CAN'T use that on them.

Sylvanas didn't jump in that cinematic either. By your "logic" it means she couldn't. Super valid train of thought you got here. Never mind that that Sylvanas' whole post-snap dialogue was about how insignificant everyone present is in her eyes, comparing the Alliance to toy soldiers and the Horde forces standing with them to beasts, indicating that to her they were insignificant pests no worth of her time.

By my "logic" when I see a character not killing one another, though they hate each other, that mostly means she can't.
"I want everyone dead" -> ran away.
It's like saying "I could fight with you and win, but I don't".
So as I said - she's either dumb or weak. But I still respect her, so she's probably the latter.

And no, you're not talking anything even remotely related to facts. You're making illogical and fallacious non-arguments in regards to a topic you made it blatantly clear (in pretty much every single paragraph of this post) you're completely and utterly ignorant about.

Facts:
Malfurion was fighting with her a few times.
She ran away(not in all fights, but still).
Jaina overwhelmed the whole Battle for Undercity.
Sylvanas ran away.
She had occasion to the most important people from both Horde and the Alliance.
She ran away.

Yup, she's more powerful than all of them combined.

Too bad this is as illogical of an argument as it was when you made it a paragraph ago.

Never mind that the same exact goddamn thing would apply to her opponents. So going by your logic here none of the things that they could do against Sylvanas like you claimed earlier on would have actually worked against her because welp, they didn't use those things. Whoops, you just completely demolished your earlier arguments. And the best thing is that you obviously didn't realize that.

Tagging @Aeula so they don't have to bother replying the same thing.

No, this is a good argument.
As I wrote plenty of time - she has no power to kill them, she didn't even wound them.
What's wrong with that fallacy of people on this forum?
Powerful dark ranger killed old orc warrior with unknown magic -> she's the most powerful being that could kill most of the heroes of azeroth combined.

But wait... she ran away. XD

[Carnagefiend]

But what most people ignore on her hissy-fit, she did it deliberate, the cinematic makes it a point to show she is thinking of what she is going to say..

This is my thought on it too. I feel like, in the greater context, the strike to her face and subsequent outburst was a stronger indication that her plans were well on their way and she was done bulls**ting around. Nothing that was happening in that conflict had any significance to her. Honestly, I think the "I trusted you" comment was probably the most evocative thing she said.

[Darth-Piekus]

Easy I don't think you could change his mind. To him with just that spell Sylvannas became an unstoppable God of Death who suddenly could defeat two armies single handedly. I mean why stop there. Aparently Sylvannas can go and solo Nzoth for us since she is so super powerful. Jesus. I never thought there was still so much salt in mmo champion. It's ironic that the masks have fallen.

[iamthedevil]

Yes, and that proves nothing. Just because something was powerful or undetecable it doesn't mean she could win with them - otherwise she would use that to kill them. But she didn't, because she couldn't.
So your argument is pretty much pointless.

I'm not sure what you are arguing over here, this has nothing to do with me stating your analogy was bad. You're telling me my argument was bad because of something not even related to what i had stated. An animal can see a sword. Sylvanas used an instant kill thing. Those are not the same thing. That's like looking at a dog and it just drops over dead, the dogs not going to be expecting that to happen. Nothing is.

[Mehrunes]

Then why she didn't? Because she was afraid of something?
Anyway, I have right that she couldn't sense him. If the didn't say anything she wouldn't be able to counter the ambush, and that's a fact, she wasn't even looking at the ceiling when he was there.

You can repeat your "her not doing so means she couldn't have done that" lol logic all you want, but it won't magically give it any validity. She didn't scratch herself in that cinematic either. Does that mean she can't scratch herself? And good job ignoring the part about how Genn landing a direct blow on Sylvanas did no harm to her.

You didn't get my point. It's like saying it's fine when you cut of Anduin head and his head is going to float around Sylvanas and whisper some kinky shit because we live in a fantasy world. There are limits. And Sylvanas didn't kill Genn there, so she was either dumb or weak.

Given how your point still goes against a canon Warcraft novel, there's nothing really to get here. And you're the one who didn't get my point in bringing up your argument and using it against you. Because going by your amazing argumentation a magical undead entity surviving a fall is less believable than an old unconscious fart being impervious to damage even though the very reason why he fell unconscious in the first place is because he got pierced with a poisoned arrow.

She tried to do what? Running away? If she could've done that, she certainly would, but she didn't. She was powerless, fear of her life and ran away.

More of your illogical argumentation of "her not doing so means she couldn't have done that" as if she had no volition and couldn't decide against doing things she didn't feel were necessary (it's totally not like she exploded a boatload of Blight in their faces or anything).

Nice strategy - losing a city and running away.

Scorched earth is a thing. Turning something into a trap is a thing. And again deliberately ignoring things, this time the part about how Blizzard called it a Horde victory.

Animals still got fangs/hard skin/shields, just as Jaina still has her own magic, which is superior to the one Sylvanas has. Just because you don't understand something it doesn't mean it's stronger than the power you posses. That's just foolish thinking.

The point about Jaina being bound to have trouble to decide what's proper magical defense against a power she has no knowledge about and which she couldn't even feel (which is something that confused her) apparently flew above your head.

You're comparing elite Thalassian armies to the most powerful heroes of Azeroth? Like seriously?

Which part of the word "elite" did you not understand? Which part of her ability scaring even Arthas did you not understand? Also, nice save from trying to spread bullshit about how she was using it on peasants. And by nice I mean terrible.

Like what sources?
She RAN AWAY. She said that she want everyone DEAD and she DIDN'T KILL THEM. She RAN AWAY. It's like obvious. Jaina is superior to her, she completely destroyed her strategy with plague in the Undercity, and what did she do? Nothing, she ran away SECOND time.
Why she didn't kill them there?
Why she didn't silence Jaina?

Pro-tip: she couldn't.

Putting aside your lollogic, the sources for Sylvanas having those powers are: Rise of the Lich King, the Sunwell Trilogy, BfA cinematic, 8.2.5 war campaign finale cinematic, among other things. You provided nothing against her having those powers. You provided nothing to support your claim that those powers wouldn't work on these people other than the completely illogical nonsense of how not using something equals not being able to use something. Which isn't an argument and the fact that you're still pretending it is is flat out bizarre.

Yeah, because that was unfair fight. They were with the horde army. In 1v1 she was losing(inb4 that stupid "she throws him once" argument, yeah - like me pushing Mike Tyson on the ground mean I'm stronger than him ).

There was no Horde army in Malfurion's first and third escape and Malfurion steamrolled the Horde army in the second case prior to Sylvanas' arrival. Once again you don't know what you're talking about. In 1v1 she wasn't losing because A Good War retconned in-game portrayal of things.

What? They don't exclude each other. In the Good War we don't see the scene when she was kneeling and moaning, because the writer doesn't have to explain everything, it was from the Saurfang perspective, so he probably didn't see it.

In-game prior to Saurfang cutting Malfurion down he was right on top of Sylvanas attacking her. In the novel he was not. He was thrown away from her. You trying to pretend the two actually show the same thing is as ineffective as the rest of your fallacious and illogical narrative.

And yup, she still told him that she couldn't win without his axe in the back move.

Since I CBA writing another reply to this I'm just quoting to quote myself:

And please, the statement Sylvanas provided specifically in regards to her bout with Malfurion was that he was wasting her time. When she talks about how the victory couldn't have happened without Saurfang she's talking about the campaign as a whole, which is clear if you don't cherry-pick out a quarter of her sentence.

Because she used that ability how many times? A few? While not using it on the characters we're discussing about. So that's pretty much pointless, we can just guess she CAN'T use that on them.

You do realize that among the things I pointed out to show you don't know what you're talking about here I already mentioned that Sylvanas silenced someone much stronger than Jaina long before she got her post-Cata power up? Making your claim that her silence only works on "small-class mages" flat out false? Or are you not even bothering to read what you're replying to in order to be clueless about the topic on even more levels? Also, just lol at you using your "logic" again.

By my "logic" when I see a character not killing one another, though they hate each other, that mostly means she can't.

Yeah, which isn't actually logic. So kudos for putting the word in quotation marks to properly showcase that it isn't. Also, as I already pointed out, your "logic" means that Jaina et al not killing Sylvanas either also means they can't. Except you're inconsistent and hypocritical about the whole thing and want it both ways. Sylvanas not using her established powers against those characters means she can't win against them, but them doing fuck all against her either somehow means they'd win. The fact that you still don't see your double think here is hilarious.

Facts:
Malfurion was fighting with her a few times.

If you call running away until the bit where Saurfang stumbled upon them fighting, sure.

She ran away(not in all fights, but still).

It's mighty weird because I just reread A Good War to make sure and somehow I couldn't find such a passage.

Jaina overwhelmed the whole Battle for Undercity.

Making a breach in a wall doesn't constitute overwhelming a battle.

She had occasion to the most important people from both Horde and the Alliance.
She ran away.

Yup, she's more powerful than all of them combined.

Never mind that if you were right and they were so much stronger all those instances of them being in the same vicinity as Sylvanas means they should have been able to kill her, where your doublethink comes into play

No, this is a good argument.
As I wrote plenty of time - she has no power to kill them, she didn't even wound them.
What's wrong with that fallacy of people on this forum?
Powerful dark ranger killed old orc warrior with unknown magic -> she's the most powerful being that could kill most of the heroes of azeroth combined.

But wait... she ran away. XD

You don't even notice your double think that completely ruins your "good argument" even when it's pointed out to you directly. XD XD XD

Easy I don't think you could change his mind. To him with just that spell Sylvannas became an unstoppable God of Death who suddenly could defeat two armies single handedly. I mean why stop there. Aparently Sylvannas can go and solo Nzoth for us since she is so super powerful. Jesus. I never thought there was still so much salt in mmo champion. It's ironic that the masks have fallen.

How about you stopped with your straw-men for once. I provided canon powers Sylvanas has, nothing more.

And I'm mainly here 'how does Thrall know that Saurfang cannot win, how does Saurfang know he cannot win?'. To date other then her ability to shift to smoke form, they never really saw anything of her physical prowess.

Maybe they expected her to use her bow and for Saurfang to get sniped before he even got an opportunity to quote Wrathgate cinematic.

But what most people ignore on her hissy-fit, she did it deliberate, the cinematic makes it a point to show she is thinking of what she is going to say..

I mean she did pause there and think for a moment but we'll have to see if there's more to that.

[Flurryfang]

And I'm mainly here 'how does Thrall know that Saurfang cannot win, how does Saurfang know he cannot win?'. To date other then her ability to shift to smoke form, they never really saw anything of her physical prowess.

But I understand the writing, this was to mirror the Wrathgate as much as possible. Even if that much was not needed.

It would have been way more interesting if they went in far more sure of their abilities and to get surprised there. Giving a way bigger 'what the heck has Sylvanas done?!' moment.

But what most people ignore on her hissy-fit, she did it deliberate, the cinematic makes it a point to show she is thinking of what she is going to say..

Its a shame, that we don't have some reactions to Sylvanases apperant power-up, since they apperantly knew she was strong. And yet, apperantly they were surprised by her being able to something, she pretty much already did at the Battle of Lordaeron.

Its almost like somebody thought of the cool scene of her blasting Saurfang and just told some writers to make it make sense somehow xD

[Eazy]

You can repeat your "her not doing so means she couldn't have done that" lol logic all you want, but it won't magically give it any validity. She didn't scratch herself in that cinematic either. Does that mean she can't scratch herself? And good job ignoring the part about how Genn landing a direct blow on Sylvanas did no harm to her.

I didn't say anything like that. I said that if she didn't use all of the abilities to win the battle - that means she can't. Simple as that. Why you have to exaggerate everything? It's not that hard to understand what I meant.

Given how your point still goes against a canon Warcraft novel, there's nothing really to get here. And you're the one who didn't get my point in bringing up your argument and using it against you. Because going by your amazing argumentation a magical undead entity surviving a fall is less believable than an old unconscious fart being impervious to damage even though the very reason why he fell unconscious in the first place is because he got pierced with a poisoned arrow.

What do you mean? What goes against a canon Warcraft novel?
You're just running in circles here mate.

More of your illogical argumentation of "her not doing so means she couldn't have done that" as if she had no volition and couldn't decide against doing things she didn't feel were necessary (it's totally not like she exploded a boatload of Blight in their faces or anything).

See above.

Scorched earth is a thing. Turning something into a trap is a thing. And again deliberately ignoring things, this time the part about how Blizzard called it a Horde victory.

And Blizzard also said once that in the end of Orgrimmar we're going to kill Garrosh.
Yup, totaly believable. I'm not sure what about yourself, but I don't have to anyone to tell me what to think.
I don't really call it victory. She lost the city, that trap was made only because she knew she didn't have a chance. Simple.

The point about Jaina being bound to have trouble to decide what's proper magical defense against a power she has no knowledge about and which she couldn't even feel (which is something that confused her) apparently flew above your head.

And that proves what? Only that Jaina didn't know anything about that power, that's all. Another exaggeration. Stop with that head-canoning.

Which part of the word "elite" did you not understand? Which part of her ability scaring even Arthas did you not understand? Also, nice save from trying to spread bullshit about how she was using it on peasants. And by nice I mean terrible.

Comparing some elite defenders to strongest sorcerer on Azeroth. xDD
Scaring Arthas? Nice head-canoning. xD

Putting aside your lollogic, the sources for Sylvanas having those powers are: Rise of the Lich King, the Sunwell Trilogy, BfA cinematic, 8.2.5 war campaign finale cinematic, among other things. You provided nothing against her having those powers. You provided nothing to support your claim that those powers wouldn't work on these people other than the completely illogical nonsense of how not using something equals not being able to use something. Which isn't an argument and the fact that you're still pretending it is is flat out bizarre.

Nice sources. I can also say - check out Jaina sources from the battle of Undercity cinematic, Wc3, and War Crimes.
Happy now?
Ridiculous. What has Sylvanas shown there compared to what Jaina shown back then? NOTHING. Flying and killing 3 Alliance soldiers compared to summoning a magic ship with magic cannon and frozing a huge area in a blind of an eye? Lol. She alone would overpower Windrunner without any problems.

There was no Horde army in Malfurion's first and third escape and Malfurion steamrolled the Horde army in the second case prior to Sylvanas' arrival. Once again you don't know what you're talking about. In 1v1 she wasn't losing because A Good War retconned in-game portrayal of things.

Nice head-canoning once again! Where it was stated that A Good War fight between Sylvanas and Malfurion retconned anything? Tell me.
As I wrote above million times, the Good War scene was from the Saurfang perspective, while we(heroes of Azeroth) saw that Sylvanas was kneeling and moaning with pain was from OURS perspective. They don't exclude each other, but I guess it's a concept really hard to understand?

In-game prior to Saurfang cutting Malfurion down he was right on top of Sylvanas attacking her. In the novel he was not. He was thrown away from her. You trying to pretend the two actually show the same thing is as ineffective as the rest of your fallacious and illogical narrative.

Where Malfurion was right on top of Sylvanas in the game? He could've used the entangling roots on her(then she was kneeling and moaning with pain) and then he was thrown right after, standing there just as he was in the novel. But as I wrote, both of these sources doesn't exclude themselves, but someone don't know how to use imagination and is prettending that things that happened in the game didn't exist.

But I guess head-canoning everything that favors Banshee Queen is normal for you, lol.

You do realize that among the things I pointed out to show you don't know what you're talking about here I already mentioned that Sylvanas silenced someone much stronger than Jaina long before she got her post-Cata power up? Making your claim that her silence only works on "small-class mages" flat out false? Or are you not even bothering to read what you're replying to in order to be clueless about the topic on even more levels? Also, just lol at you using your "logic" again.

It's nice that she used that when Jaina was attacking her in the Undercity. Oh wait, she ran away.

Yeah, which isn't actually logic. So kudos for putting the word in quotation marks to properly showcase that it isn't. Also, as I already pointed out, your "logic" means that Jaina et al not killing Sylvanas either also means they can't. Except you're inconsistent and hypocritical about the whole thing and want it both ways. Sylvanas not using her established powers against those characters means she can't win against them, but them doing fuck all against her either somehow means they'd win. The fact that you still don't see your double think here is hilarious.

What? So you mean she lost on purpose? xD

Making a breach in a wall doesn't constitute overwhelming a battle.

Yes it is, she totally destroyed her tactics and gave Alliance the upper hand.

Never mind that if you were right and they were so much stronger all those instances of them being in the same vicinity as Sylvanas means they should have been able to kill her, where your doublethink comes into play

Yeah, because someone as honorable as Thrall, Anduin or Saurfang would totally piss on the Mak'gora rules..
Don't make me laugh.

Enough of this ridiculous charade that is futile.

Let's focus on the facts:
-Sylvanas didn't kill Genn when they fought, so she was either weak or stupid(she indeed lost there, because he accomplished his goal, while she didn't).
-Sylvanas had to put the trap in the Undercity, because she knew she was going to lose that city. If she had enough power she would've defend it and keep her home with other people safe, but couldn't.
-Sylvanas told the hero that she wants everyone else dead, but instead of killing them in the battle after Mak'gora with Saurfang she ran away, so she couldn't seriously win, otherwise she would just killed them where they stand(and bring chaos into the Saurfang resistant army and the Alliance, which would give her upperhand, so once more she has proven she's either stupid or weak, or even both).

[Lemonpartyfan]

She lashes out when she's emotionally hurt by her family or when Arthas was involved. Not when she's toying with some twerp in combat and they manage to land a hit. She didn't lash out when Genn hit her in the face in their fight. Not even after he fucked her future over.

I mean, its more than that, but okay. Not that Saurfang is a "twerp"...

[Mehrunes]

I mean, its more than that, but okay. Not that Saurfang is a "twerp"...

And, pray tell, how is it more than that, exactly? Particularly how is it more than Genn fucking her future over. Do enlighten me. And Saurfang is a hypocrite and an Alliance boot licker who needs a human teen to explain to him what the Horde is multiple times. That constitutes a twerp for me.

[bullseyed]

You know what would have been great? If they had a cutscene for after Sourfang died and it shows him going to whatever void-hell Sylvanas did and he looks around as the torture begins and is like "shit, Sylvanas was right".

- - - Updated - - -

What if she didn't care that he "outed" her, what if her plans are far enough ahead that it doesnt matter at all ?

This is literally canon in game.

- - - Updated - - -

I know Thrall was nerfed since Cataclysm, but you think he'd fall that easy to Sylvanas?

Each of the Horde and Alliance leaders would have died to the blast that killed Sourfang.

Sylvanas is more powerful than each of them. None of the casters can even conjure a shield, because they have no idea what the shadow magic she is using is.

[Kyphael]

Each of the Horde and Alliance leaders would have died to the blast that killed Sourfang.

Sylvanas is more powerful than each of them. None of the casters can even conjure a shield, because they have no idea what the shadow magic she is using is.

Why wouldn't she just have shot Anduin, then? Surely, he'd be a higher priority to kill than an old traitor.

[bullseyed]

Thats not even mentioning this moronic storyline tosses out.. what...20 years (going back to WC3) of what Sylvanas is motivated by. Her concerns have always been about 2 things. 1: Revenge on Arthas, 2: Ensuring a future for the Forsaken. This u-turn of "durp I want to annihilate everything, but I sorta feel bad for the Forsaken, oh well..." makes no sense at all.

Agree that the devolution from saving the forsaken to whatever she is doing now wasn't super well done. Even at the start of BFA she was talking about ensuring a way for the forsaken to reproduce and demanding they be allowed to raise corpses.

A bunch of the forsaken even say stuff like death to the living, but seemingly weren't willing to stick with her through this? Just seems she should have more than us + Nathanos + the dark rangers + the banshees in her current unit.

It makes sense though. She pivoted from wanting the forsaken to survive to wanting herself to survive. Originally ensuring the forsaken survived was probably enough to ensure she did as well. But with the cosmic threats in play in 8.X and 9.X, that was no longer the case.

Also keep in mind your false claim that she wants to annihilate everything makes you the durp. She was causing events leading to the death of enough people to summon Mueh'zala. She says that goal has now been achieved. Mueh'zala is foretold to feast on Azeroth after a battle causes a great fire. Apparently none of the trolls in the Horde actually know enough of their own culture to figure this out.

- - - Updated - - -

Why wouldn't she just have shot Anduin, then? Surely, he'd be a higher priority to kill than an old traitor.

Did you... not even watch the cutscene?

None of them matter. Not the Horde, not the Alliance, Jaina, Anduin, Thrall.

The loa of death is coming to fight the last of the old gods. No one escapes death (except Sylvanas, so far).

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas gives kind of a clear aswer to this during the ending cinematic and the Loyalist cutscene.

She was mad at Varok and wanted revenge ("I trusted you"). When Varok starts his speech about Hope and Honor™ and surprised her with Shalamayne's trick she spouted that the Horde was nothing, and realized by the look of that Flag carrier that even her lodyalists had hope - no matter how hard she'd tried to kill it ("Death comes, Old Soldier... and all their hope dies with you!"), they were still hoping for something other than death... so she just said "fuck it", finished Varok with a deathbolt, told everyone off and left. She had nothing else to gain at that point... she set Azshara and Nzoth in motion, so smore troops were dying anyway (which is basically what she says during the Loyalist cutscene).

This.

Sourfang yelled THE HORDE IS STRONG but I guess Blizzard needed her to directly say "No, the Horde is weak" when she oneshot him to get the point across. That's the point of Sourfang's Horde pendant being destroyed. The Horde and Alliance are both a fly compared to Sylvanas's power.


She actually made progress in destroying hope. The magic users present realized they didn't even have any idea what kind of magic she was using, and Sylvanas literally could have chosen to kill all of them instead of flying away. They're basically left standing around saying "well, shit, we can't even stop her if we wanted to, she's off the charts power-wise."

- - - Updated - - -

don't forget that saurfang has a deathwish. he may simply have thought the battle would go poorly, so lets make sure everybody gets to see me die gloriously.

that might have been his whole plan, and him winning or getting lucky by sylvanas being stupid was just happy little accident.

This is correct.

He was hoping his death would inspire others to fight on. He accidentally gave them extra motivation when Sylvanas decided she didn't need to waste time with insignificant people like the Horde and Alliance anymore.

Also worth pointing out the foil between Sylvanas being desperate to live in BFA and Sourfang being desperate to die in BFA.

[Darth-Piekus]

Are we seriously doing that right now? Yes the Horde and the Alliance are a fly compared to her power that she left like a scared puppy. Killing a simple Old Warrior doesn't make you powerful. Any of the Powerhouses right there would destroy her in an instant. Jesus. It's the Garrosh idiocy all over again with the Warchief suddenly becoming too powerful for anyone.

[faithbane]

What if Sylvanas just shut the fuck up instead of spazzing out over a cut.

Its not the big things in the story, its the small things that make it unbearable. Sylvanas could have had a 1 line conversation with the loyalist about how her new powers came with some temper issues for example. or a quest in ally req scenario about why they cant land the spaceship on azeroth because tehy dont have the fuel to launch again and the power of teh lazer is very limited now .. and 10 other examples of how literally minimum effort additions can save the lore.

BFA story is bleeding because of a 1000 paper cuts not 1 big wound.

[Mehrunes]

I didn't say anything like that. I said that if she didn't use all of the abilities to win the battle - that means she can't. Simple as that. Why you have to exaggerate everything? It's not that hard to understand what I meant.

You said something along those lines in pretty much every second paragraph of your previous reply, but sure. Hell, you just fucking repeated it here right after denying it. So who are you trying to fool? Yourself?

What do you mean? What goes against a canon Warcraft novel?
You're just running in circles here mate.

Uh-huh. You were trying to invoke "but muh physics" to deny a statement from Edge of Night about how Sylvanas would have survived the fall from ICC alone but your narrative about it totally doesn't go against a canon Warcraft novel even though that's your entire point. I'm totally just running in circles right now

See above.

See above how you repeated that nonsensical non-argument just after denying making it? I did see it. Made me chuckle.

And Blizzard also said once that in the end of Orgrimmar we're going to kill Garrosh.
Yup, totaly believable. I'm not sure what about yourself, but I don't have to anyone to tell me what to think.

Blizzard's statements are Word of God. You're actively engaging in peddling fanfiction right here while predenting you have some high ground. How is that supposed to work? Humor me.

I don't really call it victory. She lost the city, that trap was made only because she knew she didn't have a chance. Simple.

Do give a source for those statements. Where is it said that she made it a trap only because of that? Oh, right, no such source exists.

And that proves what? Only that Jaina didn't know anything about that power, that's all. Another exaggeration. Stop with that head-canoning.

Yeah, right. Stating that it'd be difficult for Jaina to defend an instantaneous attack of a magic type unknown to her is totally head-canoning. You sure got me here. Because magic is like knives and defending against magic is like having teeth as per your stellar comparison /s

Comparing some elite defenders to strongest sorcerer on Azeroth. xDD

Can you xDD give an actual source xDDDD even remotely implying that xDD Xdd being a strong sorceress gives you stronger bones? Oh, right, no such thing exists and you're just trying to save face from being caught on talking about a topic you know nothing about, where you tried to dismiss people whose bones Sylvanas shattered as some peasants. Without any effect. And I'm still not sure what confuses you about the word elite.

Scaring Arthas? Nice head-canoning. xD'

Given how you already made it blatantly clear you have no knowledge whatsoever about the event in question as per your musings about peasants, spare me your trite accusations of headcanon. They are completely devoid of any meaning coming from someone as ignorant about the topic as you are.

Nice sources. I can also say - check out Jaina sources from the battle of Undercity cinematic, Wc3, and War Crimes.

But she didn't use those things against Sylvanas, which means she couldn't affect her with them

Happy now?
Ridiculous.

Yes, I am indeed happy that you are still completely unaware of your double think here and as per you just completely ignoring it despite it having been spelled out to you right there and as such continue to undermine yourself with it. Well, maybe not completely unaware, as you accurately described your nonsense as ridiculous.

What has Sylvanas shown there compared to what Jaina shown back then? NOTHING. Flying and killing 3 Alliance soldiers compared to summoning a magic ship with magic cannon and frozing a huge area in a blind of an eye? Lol. She alone would overpower Windrunner without any problems.

Never mind that in Rise of the Lich King Sylvanas was already affecting an entire army with her voice. But nah, that doesn't count because it's convenient to your argument that way.

Nice head-canoning once again! Where it was stated that A Good War fight between Sylvanas and Malfurion retconned anything? Tell me.
As I wrote above million times, the Good War scene was from the Saurfang perspective, while we(heroes of Azeroth) saw that Sylvanas was kneeling and moaning with pain was from OURS perspective. They don't exclude each other, but I guess it's a concept really hard to understand?

I already flat out explained the divergence in portrayal of the ending of the fight between the two, so once again spare me your utterly empty accusations of headcanon as they have no meaning whatsoever coming from you. And you haven't explained squat. You have no argument to explain why Malfurion was next to Sylvanas and smiting her from our perspective and was cut down by Saurfang right next to rooted Sylvanas, while in the novel prior to Saurfang striking him down he was nowhere near Sylvanas as he was ass-blasted away by Sylvanas. Because you having no argument is the overall theme of your entire litany of fallacious non-arguments.

Where Malfurion was right on top of Sylvanas in the game? He could've used the entangling roots on her(then she was kneeling and moaning with pain) and then he was thrown right after, standing there just as he was in the novel. But as I wrote, both of these sources doesn't exclude themselves, but someone don't know how to use imagination and is prettending that things that happened in the game didn't exist.

And yet he wasn't thrown in game despite the player seeing the entire thing. "He could have done something" isn't an argument when it didn't actually happen. Sylvanas didn't blast him away in game, period. There's nothing about it being OURS perspective that would have obstructed our view in regards to that event, yet we still didn't see it. Malfurion was still cut down next to her in game while it wasn't the case in the novel. You have nothing here. Your claim that they don't exclude themselves is built on nothing but wishful thinking and ignorance.

But I guess head-canoning everything that favors Banshee Queen is normal for you, lol.

Again, spare me your trite accusations until you can actually build an argument based on the canon events rather than your fallacious fantasies about a topic you haven't read anything about.

It's nice that she used that when Jaina was attacking her in the Undercity. Oh wait, she ran away.

Could it be moe of your logic that you totally haven't (/s) been using? Of course it is xD xD

What? So you mean she lost on purpose? xD

xD xD no. Alas, the concept of a trap still eludes you. The fact that as per Blizzard's official statement Horde won at Lordaeron still eludes you as well. And me pointing out the double think regarding your logic apparently didn't even register with you.

Yes it is, she totally destroyed her tactics and gave Alliance the upper hand.

Given how Sylvanas' plan was turning Undercity into a trap and Jaina breaching the wall meant that Alliance walked into that trap, sure thing.

Yeah, because someone as honorable as Thrall, Anduin or Saurfang would totally piss on the Mak'gora rules..
Don't make me laugh.

What does Mak'gora have to do with anything I said? No one did anything against Sylvanas after her Mak'gora was over either. No one did anything against Sylvanas on occasions they faced her when there was no ongoing Mak'gora anywhere near her. What you said here is a straw-man and a nonsequitur. And I'm the one making you laugh? Wat?

Let's focus on the facts:
-Sylvanas didn't kill Genn when they fought, so she was either weak or stupid(she indeed lost there, because he accomplished his goal, while she didn't).

What happened to your earlier claim that she outright couldn't kill him? Move those goalposts some more. And your conclusion is a nonsequitur in regards to your premise here.

-Sylvanas had to put the trap in the Undercity, because she knew she was going to lose that city. If she had enough power she would've defend it and keep her home with other people safe, but couldn't.

A claim you substantiated with absolutely nothing other than your amazing logic that you totally haven't been using.

-Sylvanas told the hero that she wants everyone else dead, but instead of killing them in the battle after Mak'gora with Saurfang she ran away, so she couldn't seriously win, otherwise she would just killed them where they stand(and bring chaos into the Saurfang resistant army and the Alliance, which would give her upperhand, so once more she has proven she's either stupid or weak, or even both).

Because Sylvanas wanting everyone dead means she has to want them dead immediately on the spot. Never mind that she helped Azshara set N'Zoth free so he'd wreak havoc for her and save her the effort. That's inconvenient to your amazing argument so it is to be disregarded. Then you follow it with more of the logic that you totally haven't been using. And you topped it off with you double think about it that you still seem to be unaware of despite me outright spelling it out three times.

So you got one thing right: enough of this ridiculous charade that is futile. Come back to me when you actually read up on the relevant source material and find it in yourself to make an argument that isn't not only illogical and fallacious but is also something you engage in a double think about because you want to both eat your cake and have it too.