Needing for Repair

[horbindr]

last time someone did that in one of my groups, the rest of us just agreed to put it on master looter. he got pretty mad.

[arkanon]

Leave the group

Totally agree, and that is absolutely an option - it does inconvenience 3 other group members who have done nothing wrong, which could result in you being blacklisted across your realm as someone who bails on groups over loot - something that would result in you having no choice but to delete the character and start again.

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I never needed for repairs but I did have a guild pay for my repairs who continually face pulled multiple packs because it was " funny"

Surprising how once gold changed hands the laughter seemed to stop.

I had one person hand over some gold due to a hunters inability to keep it in his quiver resulting in numerous extra pulls. The hunter got abusive and behaved like a child when asked politely to stop pulling extra packs. He was a terrible player all round, and i guess his healer mate felt bad, opened trade, and handed over a small but respectable amount of coin. Still a shit run, but at least the situation resolved itself without any ridiculous drama and bickering.

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last time someone did that in one of my groups, the rest of us just agreed to put it on master looter. he got pretty mad.

Also an option - unless the group leader is the one causing the problem. I remember in vanilla it wasnt uncommon for people to wait until the run was 75% done before showing their true colours and starting to need on whatever they felt like for whatever reason they wanted. Often by that stage, people just wanted to finish the run so just accepted the situation, or more likely, joined in and rolled need on everything.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

So you're special and your ninjaing is way more important than someone elses? Did you win gold in mental gymnastics at the last olympics?

Well, for one, it wasn't me. Secondly, how do you know the group didn't approve? Use your fucking brain.

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I feel bad now, because i have absolutely no clue who you are, and yet you seem to know me quite well? One issue is however, that i am playing and enjoying Classic. I also play Retail, and although i am enjoying it far less than any other expansion, i still prefer some aspects when compared to previous iterations.

No, stop jacking yourself off - you have been posting the same contrarian, classic hating bullshit in just the thread. No one knows who you are or cares.

Use your brain, the two scenarios are different in every way.

[arkanon]

No, stop jacking yourself off - you have been posting the same contrarian, classic hating bullshit in just the thread. No one knows who you are or cares.

Use your brain, the two scenarios are different in every way.

Well which is it? Am i a "well known classic hater", or does nobody know who i am? You cant have it both ways.

In one scenario, a player needs on gear to pay for their repairs.
In the other scenario, a player needs on gear to replace their damaged gear, even though they will be swapping it back after the run, and guess what? selling the item they needed on.

They are not "different in every way". The only real difference is that in scenario 2, the player uses the item for a while before selling it.

[Reyuna]

6 pages this guy has gotten you on.

*popcorn*

[ShimmerSwirl]

Pretty common. A very reliable way to make money in wow is just to vendor high value items.
Its mostly grays, but weapons and plate armor vendor for a lot too.

Loot just is distributed poorly in Classic.
Ideally, needing an item shouldn't even be possible if you can't wear it.
A feature introduced later on.
Or perhaps more ideal, personal loot.

No reserving. No needing for vendoring.
No nonsense at all.

Its not what people think they want, but it solves a lot of problems and predatory behavior by people who think they are more important than the etiquette of the game.

Personal loot has no place in Classic, or any real MMORPG.

[arkanon]

Cool TED Talk. Still ninjaing if the group didn't consent to it.

So Blizzard would take action against them? The group is NOT required to consent to using the Need / Greed system for loot distribution. They even put a system in place to avoid such problems - Master looter. If you want to dictate what is and is not acceptable for loot distribution in a group, you form your own group, as master looter, and run the group that way.

[Super Black Man of Steal]

Kick him or need on it as well.

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Personal loot has no place in Classic, or any real MMORPG.

Personal loot is flawless and superior.

[arkanon]

Personal loot has no place in Classic, or any real MMORPG.

Although im not a massive fan of personal loot, it completely eliminates all this kind of childish drama. I think personal loot has no place in Raids, but in 5man content its a huge time saver, and although very frustrating at times and flawed, it certainly saves a huge amount of time and streamlines the process. Some love it, some hate it, but suggesting arguably the most popular MMO of all time is not a "real mmo" because you dont like the current default loot system is extremely childish and silly.

[Raelyn]

"What they did was total BULLSHIT! - although, i must confess i once did exactly the same thing"

Untrue. It is far from exactly the same thing! The OP stated that it was done in his case "to vendor to cover repair costs" - Mine was done to actually use, in place of an item which was red (and therefore giving no use - essentially I didn't have a piece of gear in that slot, for all intents and purposes).

Very different.

[arkanon]

Untrue. It is far from exactly the same thing! The OP stated that it was done in his case "to vendor to cover repair costs" - Mine was done to actually use, in place of an item which was red (and therefore giving no use - essentially I didn't have a piece of gear in that slot, for all intents and purposes).

Very different.

No, not different. Let me ask you this - was the item an upgrade? if so, the need was not to replace the red item, but rather because it was an upgrade - cool bananas!. However, you mentioned you only needed to replace a red item. This suggests the item was NOT an upgrade, and as such, once the dungeon was over, you would repair your better item, and sell the one you needed. Same end result - you needed on an item, only to sell it.

I consider it your responsibility to manage and maintain your own gear - and if you are the only person with red gear, and only one item at that, this strongly suggests you didnt repair before the run.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Although im not a massive fan of personal loot, it completely eliminates all this kind of childish drama. I think personal loot has no place in Raids, but in 5man content its a huge time saver, and although very frustrating at times and flawed, it certainly saves a huge amount of time and streamlines the process. Some love it, some hate it, but suggesting arguably the most popular MMO of all time is not a "real mmo" because you dont like the current default loot system is extremely childish and silly.

You bascially nailed the problem. "It streamlines the process". That is the wrong philosophy to be designing a RPG around. Its another mark that removes RPG from the world and replaces it with convenience. Let people fight over loot. Let people get super excited when they actually win something. The "streamlining" pit of design has no bottom. Its not a solid foundation to design around. You know what the most streamlined system ever is? Everyone makes a level 1 toon and jumps on a big button in the starting zone that immediately gives them every gear, toy, mount, and achievement in the game. Ultra simple, streamlined, zero drama, everyone gets great rewards. And its utterly stupid. Which is what personal loot is.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I did an SM group and the tank pulled too big and died early on.

After that, every item no one else NEEDED, he NEEDED cause he had to pay for his repair bill.


Last boss drops mail tank shoulders, which he needs of course. Again, to pay for his repairs.



Is this a new thing? Or was this guy just a self entitled dick?

I mean, you let him continue to need on everything through the entire instance...if you had a problem with it you should have brought it up to him or kicked him out of the group...not just wait until you could bitch about it here.

No, he shouldn't just need on everything...but you let him get away with it without any repercussions.

[arkanon]

You bascially nailed the problem. "It streamlines the process". That is the wrong philosophy to be designing a RPG around. Its another mark that removes RPG from the world and replaces it with convenience. Let people fight over loot. Let people get super excited when they actually win something. The "streamlining" pit of design has no bottom. Its not a solid foundation to design around. You know what the most streamlined system ever is? Everyone makes a level 1 toon and jumps on a big button in the starting zone that immediately gives them every gear, toy, mount, and achievement in the game. Ultra simple, streamlined, zero drama, everyone gets great rewards. And its utterly stupid. Which is what personal loot is.

The problem with using such silly hyperbole in a discussion is you grossly undermine the point you are trying to make. The "Slippery slope fallacy" is the go to for people who know their argument is not very strong without it, so a little fear-mongering is needed. You jumped very quickly from a streamlined loot solution, all the way to everyone getting absolutely everything with zero effort - something not even being discussed.

I have said personal loot is flawed. I have said that in certain situations, i prefer master looter, such as raids. There was no need to resort to such ludicrous and entirely fictitious extremes to try and get your point across.

[ShimmerSwirl]

The problem with using such silly hyperbole in a discussion is you grossly undermine the point you are trying to make. The "Slippery slope fallacy" is the go to for people who know their argument is not very strong without it, so a little fear-mongering is needed. You jumped very quickly from a streamlined loot solution, all the way to everyone getting absolutely everything with zero effort - something not even being discussed.

I have said personal loot is flawed. I have said that in certain situations, i prefer master looter, such as raids. There was no need to resort to such ludicrous and entirely fictitious extremes to try and get your point across.

The point is that there is no design limitation in video games like there is in real life. We cant decide that tomorrow we want cars to get 1000 miles per gallon and travel at 500mph and just make it happen. A game designer can do that with no issues by simply typing a few keystrokes. Video games don't exist to be efficient and streamlined, they literally exist to waste time. My point is that to operate with a design goal of "being streamlined" within the world of gaming is simply a non-nonsensical philosophy. Not sure why you think slippery slope is not a real thing, it absolutely is and modern wow is all you need to look at to see how that works out. The reason retail is what it is is because Blizzard stopped use RPG as WoW's design base, and replaced it with streamlined convenience. As I said, its just not a firm foundation to stand on when making design choices, because there is no limit to how convenient and streamlined things can be.

Make RPG the filter you run everything through as much as you possibly can. Does it make sense to have 5 people run over to the boss they killed and have each one find something different in the monster's treasure box? No. Ok so don't do it then. When you use that as your filter you get a immersive, authentic game world that people lose themselves in like a good book.

[arkanon]

The point is that there is no design limitation in video games like there is in real life. We cant decide that tomorrow we want cars to get 1000 miles per gallon and travel at 500mph and just make it happen. A game designer can do that with no issues by simply typing a few keystrokes. Video games don't exist to be efficient and streamlined, they literally exist to waste time. My point is that to operate with a design goal of "being streamlined" within the world of gaming is simply a non-nonsensical philosophy. Not sure why you think slippery slope is not a real thing, it absolutely is and modern wow is all you need to look at to see how that works out. The reason retail is what it is is because Blizzard stopped use RPG as WoW's design base, and replaced it with streamlined convenience. As I said, its just not a firm foundation to stand on when making design choices, because there is no limit to how convenient and streamlined things can be.

Make RPG the filter you run everything through as much as you possibly can. Does it make sense to have 5 people run over to the boss they killed and have each one find something different in the monster's treasure box? No. Ok so don't do it then. When you use that as your filter you get a immersive, authentic game world that people lose themselves in like a good book.

I dont think slippery slope is a thing because it is not - and this has been proven time and time again. You can google it if you want to educate yourself on it. First off, from a purchasers pov, games exist to entertain - you can label that as "wasting time" if you like, but i certainly dont. The very suggestion that wow was designed to be an RPG is insulting - it was absolutely designed to be a streamlined, simplified, easier version of other MMO's on the market - so i hate to completely ruin your entire argument, but wow is what it is because it was always designed to be a streamlined game compared to its competition.

You also dont seem to understand how personal loot works, and seem to think duplicate items ONLY occurs in modern wow, and never happened in earlier iterations, which is fundamentally wrong. You also apply this standard where you feel it works for your argument, but not other parts of the same game. Does it make sense for a boar which CLEARLY has 2 eyes fall over dead, but suddenly have no eyes, and yet an identical boar drops 2? No. Does it make sense to get dragons in the mail? no. You cannot expect realism in a game were you run around riding dinosaurs and firing lightning bolts out of your hands - Killed the big bad boss? well done! oops, its Wednesday, hes back! See that big 2h sword the boss has been attacking you with? well, he just died, and 2 of them dropped! well done!

[munkeyinorbit]

I know you're a known classic hater, and a contrarian, but come the fuck on. They aren't even close to being the same.

In one scenario the item is not needed. In the other scenario the item is not needed. Explain how they are different.

[TheRevenantHero]

Ninjaing isn't against the ToS, therefore no action should be taken against them. The general concept behind ninjaing is that it can earn one the condemnation of the community; not a ban.

There are very specific times in which Blizzard will enforce any form of loot rules, and that's only if everyone agrees beforehand, screenshots are taken, and then the rules are subsequently violated. Even then they seem to have a hit-or-miss record.

There are still social norms governing what is and isn't acceptable. Common courtesy dictates you shouldn't steal an upgrade from someone because you want to vendor it for money. I understand playing devil's advocate and all that, but come on...

The 90s-2g the item would vendor for isn't worth stealing an upgrade that may have been one of the primary reasons the person even ran the dungeon. Everyone has repair bills; if you don't want to deal with mail/plate repairs, don't roll a class that wears them.

Actually, ninja loot falls under griefing which is against the ToS. I've reported several people for ninja-looting in PUG raids and have even gotten items I won a roll for through the mail by Blizzard. So to say it isn't against the ToS is just false.

[TheRevenantHero]

Were loot rules stated in chat prior to the raid? If yes, I acknowledged that already.

They've said on several occasions simply hitting "need" on the Need/Greed in-game system will not constitute ninja looting unless there were alternate group rules posted in chat.

If a person is rolling need on everything, even when they can't equip it, it falls under ninja looting and therefore griefing.

[arkanon]

If a person is rolling need on everything, even when they can't equip it, it falls under ninja looting and therefore griefing.

This is not true - if you can need on it, it is not ninja looting - and its that simple. Ninja looting, when it comes to Blizzards line, is when loot rules are clearly defined before the even is started, and then the master looter goes against those outlined rules.

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My server has several "blacklisted" players for ninja looting and otherwise toxic attitudes. They aren't banned by blizzard, but they're still facing repercussions for their actions. Which was my overall point.

Rubbish - your realm has a few ppl you dont like because they got loot you wanted. No one cares - they are still completing content without any issues.