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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Huzzaa View Post
    He's not wrong though.

    A friend of mine quit during 2008 and he literally said: "RIP game, Activision..." something something, the point was exactly what it had started to turn into during Wrath. An easy game. Aka. the accessibility that rapidly started flowing in.

    Wrath I personally enjoyed a lot myself but TBC awed me way more than Wrath ever did.

    I would say the same Nitros said. The actual golden age, was started in BC, lasted through it into Wrath but Wrath quickly proved the point on where the game started heading after.

    I do give Actit#ash a few more points for still keeping the game good up until the end of MoP, after which it was botched quite seriously(Cata doesn't even compare, the only bad thing there, was DS being smaller than a typical end raid, that's it) and Legion was pretty cool but looking back at it personally, that thing burned me out by then end of EN M.

    I hope they bring it back to a playable fun state of a game, but currently, they're not able to do it I think.

    Specifically to what's happening at this day.

    On another note.

    A few days ago I started thinking about compiling my own TBC server. Doing some development work on that front and perhaps even considering on attempts to balance the thing. This mind exercise brought me to a realization though when I started thinking about loot balance.

    The TBC model was a nice ladder-step between raids and tiers where you're constantly putting pieces to use from the previous and it flows together with attunements. I had an idea in my head of actually rolling things out exactly like they were, patch by patch. It would've been so cool. Then I compared it in my mind to the thing today, specifically regarding to loot balance. The thoughts I had regarding this hypothetical server were that I do as I said, but then thought about PvP gear ruining it(because most open-source server code sits in the latest patch, where the pvp gear is obtainable, meaning that even if you close off Sunwell, they'll still get inflated and invalidated by Brutal gear, making Gruuls and Maggy pointless). And here is the crux.

    The current retail model, is NOT manageable, in any way. Think about it. How do you manage these random procs, these random sockets and all the other stuff. You could do statistical analysis, but the outliers will always be present and they will brutally murder anyones motivation when people see others who have put in 0 effort achieving the same as them or often better. (heroic raider sees a normal raider with items up to M ilvl, where's the fairness in that?). There is no way, in any scenario that it's manageable.

    This mind exercise brought me to the conclusion that their only place where they can sort of manage and administrate the thing, is at the high end. The mythic end. You can kind of balance it there because you know that roughly, these people will not vary wildly 10 or 20 ilvls higher or lower like the folks raiding normal mode might. So you can kind of balance activities around it that are specifically for them. I.E. mythic raids. But even here, you can clearly notice from the last few iterations of raids in these 2 previous expansions(After M+ became a thing) of how utterly nonsensically tuned some of the last bosses are(to prevent them from being rolled over). Kil'Jaeden being a good example from ToS. Same really for the current expansions end-bosses.
    It shows how loot is not really a factor in progression anymore, which is actually really bad in my mind.

    I don't know if I'll even post this, I often do these long write ups and just delete them afterwards knowing how dumb people are and how many tend to strawman everything paragraph by paragraph but I guess the point is short and simple.

    The game sux right now. It's not only the loot, but the loot is the biggest problem. The reward system.
    The game changed to keep itself relevant. And until you can prove that everybody who has ever quit WoW only ever quit BECAUSE of design issues (note: you can't), your argument is pointless.

    There is a very real possibility had Blizzard never began to introduce accessibility features post-TBC that another AAA developer would have came out with a game that did and we'd probably wouldn't be celebrating WoW's 15th anniversary right now. (Additionally, the argument that WoW was better when raiding was more exclusive is easily defeated when you account for the fact that WoW has always been a casual MMO.) You can have opinions about what was and wasn't good for the game but it's incredibly narrow minded to associate everything pre-WotLK as "good" only because it was when WoW was in a growth period and everything else from WotLK onward as "bad" because that's when subscriber growth stopped.
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2019-09-30 at 09:07 AM.

  2. #122
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Really? Show me a chart, please. Because I don't see a sub drop at all during WOTLK. I see it in Cata, when people like you yelled how awesome TBC was and dungeons should be hard again. The loss was insane at the start, people were used to Wrath dungeons at the end and they got things they weren't used to: interrupts needed, CC needed, lower aggro for tanks, things actually requiring proper tactics.

    And you know what else you're missing? Wrath had bloody Lich King, the one epic villain everybody and their mother knew from Warcraft 3. Cata had what, some evil dragon only those interested in lore knew about. My sister who doesn't play heard about LK, she never heard about Illidan or Ragnaros or what have you, getting "Kingslayer" was an important thing for a lot of people.

    So let's stop rationalizing stuff and pretending Wrath was bad, it was not. It was the most popular for a lot of reasons and just yelling it was only because the previous expansion was good is just being obtuse as this point.
    Half of WOTLK Subs would've still subbed even if TBC stayed out 12 months longer.

    lulz WOTLK
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  3. #123
    They dont need to kill mythic guilds now because they already killed the mythic participation when they got rid of 10man hc with Warlords, that change killed so many guilds its not even funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Wrath was when subs slowed down, hit their peak and started to decrease. Subs were always increasing during classic and TBC.

    It coasted on the tail of classic and TBC actually being good. WOTLK is when WoW started to go downhill. The world was all copy pasted non-threatening 12,600 hp mobs with no abilities, dungeons were too easy and not fun. The only good raid was Ulduar but the rest ranged from terrible to merely okay. Blizzard had started ruining pvp by giving the class abilities of each class to every other class and giving everyone 10,000 cooldowns.

    And they started to shrink the world by adding conveniences everywhere that ruined the immersion.

    The feel of classic WoW and TBC was gone in WOTLK.
    My theory is that beginning with hardmodes in Wotlk it was the first expansion where subpar players felt getting left behind, in the case of PvP it was Arena in BC, the amount of High Warlords and Grand Marshalls that couldnt even break 1800 was amazing tbh.

    All in all the harder the endgame got the more people who thought that they are better than they really are got left behind, thats basically why classic is a sucess it gives bad players a good feeling.
    Last edited by Lorianus; 2019-09-30 at 01:01 PM.

  4. #124
    Over 9000! OneWay's Avatar
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    I understand very well what Mythic raiding is and this what you are saying is nothing new. Good players clear mythic within a month or two (tops 3), everyone else doesn't. If guild disbands, it was meant to be.
    "Each and every citizen of Orgrimmar is worth ten Alliance weaklings on the battlefield."
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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    There have been high level departures at Blizzard related to the e-sports stuff, haven't there?
    They haven't pulled back on their e-sports commitment though. They just tightened up on the games they are promoting. The league is till going strong and seems to be expanding.

    The world's first race isn't really e-sports though. I think their e-sports stuff is more like the overwatch league and those tournaments they run. There is no official "prize" for the world's first, except bragging rights and sponsorships. I don't even think it is broadcast on the e-sport channels. I think it is more streamed on twitch etc.

    The Blizz devs claim they watch it closely (for exploits and to help put a final balance on the mythic bosses) and they enjoy it. I doubt they would try to kill it. Also, if they really wanted to kill it- there are several ways they could kill it, I doubt they would try to do it indirectly. They would make a statement and claim it is hurting the game or eating up too much resources and that they have to kill it for the good of the game- then they would do it directly. They wouldn't try to sneak in some round about way to try and trick everyone, without saying anything.

    Is the world's first race good for the game? Interesting question- I can see both sides of it. It certainly generates some excitement for the current raid tier. I think though, overall, it promotes toxic behavior that other guilds might try to mimic (to gain the same success) and that is probably bad for the game. Though not a massive resource drain, I imagine it does lock up some resources for the duration. I would consider it basically a "wash" with an edge towards toxicity.

  6. #126
    A "mercenary" guild that exists only to clear content, with no friendships or other social ties will die at some point regardless of content lifecycles. A content drought will kill off a guild quicker if all that was keeping those people together was the raid night 2-3 times a week.

    I stopped raid back in Legion, after Gul'dan, because my guild was basically just rotating in "mercs" that would float from guild to guild looking for progress that aligns with their expectancy. Legion was a "guild killer" for a lot of people and it eventually killed my guild because we went from being a long standing group, to a small group of friends that needed 10+ randoms to fill out the raid slots and we had to replace people left and right throughout the expansion.

    I feel like 40man raiding coming to an end was for the same reason why it feels like 20man raiding is slowly losing traction. These days it just gets harder and harder to find 20 like minded individuals that have any "loyalty" or "dedication" to the guild instead of just a series of mercenaries that will jump from guild to guild as they see fit.

    I'd welcome back the 10/25 hc. I appreciate that you'll never balance the two versions equally, but why can't we just have world firsts that focus on either or both? If Method wanted to stay 20 or 25man, they can compete with other 20/25 man guilds and the 10man guilds can compete with the 10man.

  7. #127
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    They need to be destroying all systems that aren't Timeless dungeons and raids and things that aren't dungeons and raids.

    If it isn't a dungeon or a raid, scrap it. We don't need anymore giant landmasses, giant islands with millions of mystical, undiscovered creatures, we don't need 1,000 more pets, 1,000 more mounts. All of those stupid things are starting to pile up and dwarf the actual shit that people care about, which is without debate raids and dungeons.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    So for raiding guilds which have already cleared the raid there is no point in raiding anymore.
    The gear you get in EP is useless with the next raid because the next season of m+ gear will have an ilvl of 460+, azshara drops no mount and the raid and classes are not that fun to justify raiding every week for the next 3-4 months.

    The question is: Are raiding guilds forced to either suffer through the next months or to risk a guild disbandment? Because we all know that there are some players who will never come back online if they stay offline for too long.

    Half serious question that is.

    Also you may think things like: "nobody is forcing you to play" or "Lol, my ret pally is super fun to me."
    If this is the case I kindly ask you to go to the next thread. This is about mythic raiding and if you dont understand the basic rules of it then what are you doing here?
    The problem is that raiding being the only reason for playing wow is stupid.

    That's why so many people quit, that's why many more prefer classic because it's not about raiding. Blizzards focus on raiding has gotten worse and worse, every expansion is a race to raid to kill the next boss, then when that wasn't enough they added a gazillion levels of raid difficulty and it still sucks.

    Blizzard needs to get off the raiding crutch and focus on the RPG aspect of "World" of warcraft.

  9. #129
    I don't think they're doing it on purpose. But they certainly are making organized raiding guilds obsolete with their stupid decisions as of late.

    The whole M+ thing really grinds my gears because the best gear should come from raiding.

    And let's not get started about personal loot. That decision alone make me quit being a GM/RL and I haven't raided in a serious raiding guild since.

    So to answer your question, I don't think they're doing anything "intentionally" to kill mythic guilds, but I think they think they'll just survive (most wont).

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    Let me ask you... are you looking for a discussion, or are you looking for an echo chamber... because watching you slap back at anyone and everyone that disagress with you makes me think that the latter is exactly what you are after.
    I mean that is basically the definition of discussion. People disagreeing with each other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Multitorix Davlen View Post
    You didn't go back to ulduar for JUST the healer legendary. You didn't need that throughput. Raw stat differences made old set bonuses irrelevant. A single item for a single person did not make the whole raid go back a tier or two to farm it. People made their raiders farm the mop cloak on their own in lfr. Unless your group is stacking like 6 mages and warlocks you did not go back to firelands for just the staff you got it when it was current.

    Again, One item for one person doesn't make raid groups go back a tier to farm it.
    Yes you did.

    You farmed the firelands staff for every caster in your roster because it was BIS. You did farm the Elisande trinket for your warriors because it was BIS. And you also farmed old set bonuses for some classes, feral 2pc Tier 4 is a good example because it was better than anything you could get in BC. Ibet some dudes were still faming Thunderfury in BC because it was duch an op item for tanking and with threat still mattering in BC it would have been worthwhile. You may have not done this in your official raid time but that was never the point.


    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    How is this any different from any other tier?
    Come on, read the thread man. The difference is that in older tiers you could farm gear for the next tier. This is completely negated because the ilvl increase in the next tier is so massive that everything you do now is pointless.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Come on, read the thread man. The difference is that in older tiers you could farm gear for the next tier. This is completely negated because the ilvl increase in the next tier is so massive that everything you do now is pointless.
    But it's not?
    People with Mythic farmed gear are much more prepared to next tier than people with Heroic farmed gear.
    Last edited by TwoMana; 2019-09-30 at 03:30 PM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    But it's not?
    People with Mythic farmed gear are much more prepared to next tier than people with Heroic farmed gear.
    Yeah if they are doing nothing in the next season. If both people are grinding +10 keys in the next season then they are on the same gear level. You cant even argue that mythic raiders have better trinkets or something because you can get max forges on heroic or normal.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    You cant even argue that mythic raiders have better trinkets or something because you can get max forges on heroic or normal.
    Yes, you can, because the chances of actually getting those are too low to matter.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by ghostprotocol View Post
    The problem is that raiding being the only reason for playing wow is stupid.

    That's why so many people quit, that's why many more prefer classic because it's not about raiding. Blizzards focus on raiding has gotten worse and worse, every expansion is a race to raid to kill the next boss, then when that wasn't enough they added a gazillion levels of raid difficulty and it still sucks.

    Blizzard needs to get off the raiding crutch and focus on the RPG aspect of "World" of warcraft.
    There's a reason WoW has a focus on raiding. It's the one thing that WoW does which sets it apart from every other MMO out there. I can see your pitch going over really well in an investor meeting, "Okay guys, what if we stopped doing things that make us unique and instead become just like every other MMO on the market?!"

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    If both people are grinding +10 keys in the next season then they are on the same gear level.
    Yeah, if both run the same content for the entire season, then both end up with with similar gear. How is that controversial?

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Yes, you can, because the chances of actually getting those are too low to matter.
    Too low? Have you been raiding since Legion, dude? It happens all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    Yeah, if both run the same content for the entire season, then both end up with with similar gear. How is that controversial?
    You are intentionally misunderstanding what I am saying. I said your gear will be virtually the same if you run a few +10 keys in the first week of the new season no matter if you are a mythic or a heroic/normal raider. Its a complete gear reset where in older expansions you could farm mythic gear and be already geared up for the new raid. But now the ilvl jumps are so high that your old mythic gear is worse than gear from a new +6 key.

  17. #137
    Mechagnome CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    So for raiding guilds which have already cleared the raid there is no point in raiding anymore.
    The gear you get in EP is useless with the next raid because the next season of m+ gear will have an ilvl of 460+, azshara drops no mount and the raid and classes are not that fun to justify raiding every week for the next 3-4 months.

    The question is: Are raiding guilds forced to either suffer through the next months or to risk a guild disbandment? Because we all know that there are some players who will never come back online if they stay offline for too long.

    Half serious question that is.

    Also you may think things like: "nobody is forcing you to play" or "Lol, my ret pally is super fun to me."
    If this is the case I kindly ask you to go to the next thread. This is about mythic raiding and if you dont understand the basic rules of it then what are you doing here?
    No they are not. It's a video game, you beat it and then you move on. It's not a life style, you're not supposed to do it constantly every single day. Just like any other game it's perfectly normal and actually EXPECTED to stop playing it.

    You sound like a kid who just devoured 5 gallons of ice cream, it's enough now, digest it, go play outside, you'll get more another day.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    No they are not. It's a video game, you beat it and then you move on. It's not a life style, you're not supposed to do it constantly every single day. Just like any other game it's perfectly normal and actually EXPECTED to stop playing it.

    You sound like a kid who just devoured 5 gallons of ice cream, it's enough now, digest it, go play outside, you'll get more another day.

    So you have never had a guild or raided in any organized form. OK, thats fine.
    I am not shaming you or something but just read the last part of that post you quoted from me.

  19. #139
    So, if raiding is the only reason you're playing wow - then yes welcome to raid logging and free loot.
    That's what's great about Classic wow, there's so much more to do then just Raid Log - especially with raids having 1 tier and being easy content. The game isn't focused on end game raiding.

  20. #140
    Mechagnome CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    So you have never had a guild or raided in any organized form. OK, thats fine.
    Prove it instead of assuming it.

    I am not shaming you or something but just read the last part of that post you quoted from me.
    I read it, now explain why I should care about your demand? I demanded many times that people stop crying on the forums, yet here we are, swimming in your tears. Go blog that crap on your facebook wall where your friends and family can offer thoughts and payers while they probably care even less than we do.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

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