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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    In all fairness, mythic raiding has not been worth it for 2 xpac now.

    Unless you really enjoy wiping 300 times on a boss for insignificant rewards people can get in lower difficulties if lucky anyways.

    And don't think it's better in Heroic.. after 4 weeks you pretty much don't need anything from there anymore, and the only reason to run it is stupid titanforges and AP.. if those didn't exist, nobody would play the game.
    Saw a guy fully equipped with sockets and titanforges from HC just by doing HC. It's insane.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    do you actually play the game? you can cap titanforge -5 at myhtic level and still nothing would change. You either dont play the game at that level or dont grasp the reward vs effort here
    Either you don't want to raid mythic or just want things easy. Many people avoids doing mythic when they can get good stuff on heroics, and get lucky from emissary quests titanforges that gives equivalent gear titanforged to raid. Why would they go mythic raiding, every 2 times a week when they have resources to have good gear outside of it? Sockets rng gives you double ilvl than a normal gear ilvl. And sometimes they get even that, they don't need to raid man. Oh and be fully m+ equipped too.
    Last edited by Shakana; 2019-09-30 at 04:56 AM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    There is a reason Wrath was the most popular expansion in the history of the game, and it isn't any of the things they've done in Cata, MoP, WoD, Legion, or BFA.
    Wrath was when subs slowed down, hit their peak and started to decrease. Subs were always increasing during classic and TBC.

    It coasted on the tail of classic and TBC actually being good. WOTLK is when WoW started to go downhill. The world was all copy pasted non-threatening 12,600 hp mobs with no abilities, dungeons were too easy and not fun. The only good raid was Ulduar but the rest ranged from terrible to merely okay. Blizzard had started ruining pvp by giving the class abilities of each class to every other class and giving everyone 10,000 cooldowns.

    And they started to shrink the world by adding conveniences everywhere that ruined the immersion.

    The feel of classic WoW and TBC was gone in WOTLK.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2019-09-30 at 05:01 AM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Saw a guy fully equipped with sockets and titanforges from HC just by doing HC. It's insane.
    The chance to proc TF is just way too high. I re-subbed when 8.2 released and I already have two 455 TF pieces from M+. I also have several pieces with sockets. I have Benthic set with sockets (which I can't be arsed to upgrade, because we're not raiding mythic, only farming HC). Same goes for most of my guildies.

    They said they'd reduce the TF proc chance after Legion, but it's still way too common.

    The reward system is just a complete dumpster fire. Russell Petersen, the WoW Lead Rewards Designer should perhaps try a "new challenge" at Blizzard and let someone new do the reward designing. He should take Adam Kugler (the Lead Class Designer) with him.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Wrath was when subs slowed down, hit their peak and started to decrease. Subs were always increasing during classic and TBC.

    It coasted on the tail of classic and TBC actually being good. WOTLK is when WoW started to go downhill. The world was all copy pasted non-threatening 12,600 hp mobs with no abilities, dungeons were too easy and not fun. The only good raid was Ulduar but the rest ranged from terrible to merely okay. Blizzard had started ruining pvp by giving the class abilities of each class to every other class and giving everyone 10,000 cooldowns.

    And they started to shrink the world by adding conveniences everywhere that ruined the immersion.

    The feel of classic WoW and TBC was gone in WOTLK.
    You're generally one of my favorite posters here but please, please stop making the argument that WotLK was "bad" because that's when subs stopped going up. Subs would have stopped increasing at some point even if the game never changed after TBC, WotLK is simply when WoW reached market saturation. More importantly, we also don't know why people quit and it's arrogantly presumptuous to correlate changes you personally dislike with the reason people stopped subbing.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    The chance to proc TF is just way too high. I re-subbed when 8.2 released and I already have two 455 TF pieces from M+. I also have several pieces with sockets. I have Benthic set with sockets (which I can't be arsed to upgrade, because we're not raiding mythic, only farming HC). Same goes for most of my guildies.

    They said they'd reduce the TF proc chance after Legion, but it's still way too common.

    The reward system is just a complete dumpster fire. Russell Petersen, the WoW Lead Rewards Designer should perhaps try a "new challenge" at Blizzard and let someone new do the reward designing. He should take Adam Kugler (the Lead Class Designer) with him.
    New challenge or go back to how it was. Can tell you i loved gear tokens from WoTLK for example.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    Advantages for what exactly?
    Clearing out heroic quicker on farm to funnel gear?

    They're not going to be instantly dropping their mythic gear, and as I said m+ will be capped as it's always been.

    The better geared all their alts are the smoother the runs will go if they're trying to funnel gear to mains.

    I mean, if gear was irrelevant, no world first raiding guild would raid past the first clear.

  7. #107
    It's kinda the same for heroic only guilds. Usually a guild is heroic only because they don't have the numbers to do Mythic and they won't pug (otherwise they'd do at least a few bosses on Mythic). Do the content, kill the end boss a few times and then done. No mount there either, so I'd actually argue this is actually MORE of a heroic raiding problem than Mythic because:
    - Mythic guilds are fewer and the ones that clear the end boss fast are even fewer; most just keep going for the whole patch and may never get the end boss down during its time
    - heroic is cleared a lot faster than Mythic
    - M+ chest gear + Benthic + residuum gear are usually a lot better than what Heroic may provide; in Mythic you might get some pieces that are better (ex: weapon, offhand, trinkets).

    Besides, don't most top Mythic raiders WANT to be done? To clear the thing and be done, not have to keep farming over and over? That was the impression I had at least, seeing how every grind and outside source of gear is seen as the worst thing ever.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    New challenge or go back to how it was. Can tell you i loved gear tokens from WoTLK for example.
    Well, Nazjatar mana pearls are a distant cousin of that, I think the tokens should probably drop from more diverse sources. I wouldn't mind the MoP level of WF and collecting tokens for 0/2 ilvl upgrades for some pieces. I felt that was just about right compromise.

    The proc/socket chances need to be reduced a lot though. It should be a "rare surprise" not something you expect to get after some farming.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    Well, Nazjatar mana pearls are a distant cousin of that, I think the tokens should probably drop from more diverse sources. I wouldn't mind the MoP level of WF and collecting tokens for 0/2 ilvl upgrades for some pieces. I felt that was just about right compromise.

    The proc/socket chances need to be reduced a lot though. It should be a "rare surprise" not something you expect to get after some farming.
    Ye, stuff like that makes the journey of farming gear longer and make us want to log in and do more stuff like that, not just get the highest ilvl all the time, even if it doesn't benefit you much on your stats, and has awful stats, some classes don't even benefit so much from "main stat" (agility, intellect) etc, demon hunter for example, now is all about vers and crit, more than mastery, agility and haste, because we get haste from a lot of things, then it gets overcap.

    So tldr: i think there should be a pleasant challenge on the journey of getting gear. I feel wow is a job now, all about gear, wait for weekly chests to be disappointed, do a high key every week, push keys even when you don't like the affixes of it, having to go do 2 raids in a week mythic, after coming from work, to get gear that you can get similar or at least good on other difficulties on weekly quest week.

    Maybe this "journey" of getting gear would make it feel more rewarding than what we have currently. So if you actually work hard for something, you should get a reward that would show that you did work hard for it. Will always be my thoughts, no one can change these thoughts from me. I saw even guild mates stop doing mythic cause they would be good ilvl with just m+ and doing some farmings (digging wks rewards, getting essences + AP), and doing HCS, having benthic gear at max with sockets, while other people are working hard on mythic and barely have gear or good gear too and work twice as hard on progress to get it.
    Last edited by Shakana; 2019-09-30 at 08:06 AM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Wrath was when subs slowed down, hit their peak and started to decrease. Subs were always increasing during classic and TBC.
    It coasted on the tail of classic and TBC actually being good. WOTLK is when WoW started to go downhill.
    Really? Show me a chart, please. Because I don't see a sub drop at all during WOTLK. I see it in Cata, when people like you yelled how awesome TBC was and dungeons should be hard again. The loss was insane at the start, people were used to Wrath dungeons at the end and they got things they weren't used to: interrupts needed, CC needed, lower aggro for tanks, things actually requiring proper tactics.

    And you know what else you're missing? Wrath had bloody Lich King, the one epic villain everybody and their mother knew from Warcraft 3. Cata had what, some evil dragon only those interested in lore knew about. My sister who doesn't play heard about LK, she never heard about Illidan or Ragnaros or what have you, getting "Kingslayer" was an important thing for a lot of people.

    So let's stop rationalizing stuff and pretending Wrath was bad, it was not. It was the most popular for a lot of reasons and just yelling it was only because the previous expansion was good is just being obtuse as this point.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    You're generally one of my favorite posters here but please, please stop making the argument that WotLK was "bad" because that's when subs stopped going up. Subs would have stopped increasing at some point even if the game never changed after TBC, WotLK is simply when WoW reached market saturation. More importantly, we also don't know why people quit and it's arrogantly presumptuous to correlate changes you personally dislike with the reason people stopped subbing.
    He's not wrong though.

    A friend of mine quit during 2008 and he literally said: "RIP game, Activision..." something something, the point was exactly what it had started to turn into during Wrath. An easy game. Aka. the accessibility that rapidly started flowing in.

    Wrath I personally enjoyed a lot myself but TBC awed me way more than Wrath ever did.

    I would say the same Nitros said. The actual golden age, was started in BC, lasted through it into Wrath but Wrath quickly proved the point on where the game started heading after.

    I do give Actit#ash a few more points for still keeping the game good up until the end of MoP, after which it was botched quite seriously(Cata doesn't even compare, the only bad thing there, was DS being smaller than a typical end raid, that's it) and Legion was pretty cool but looking back at it personally, that thing burned me out by then end of EN M.

    I hope they bring it back to a playable fun state of a game, but currently, they're not able to do it I think.

    Specifically to what's happening at this day.

    On another note.

    A few days ago I started thinking about compiling my own TBC server. Doing some development work on that front and perhaps even considering on attempts to balance the thing. This mind exercise brought me to a realization though when I started thinking about loot balance.

    The TBC model was a nice ladder-step between raids and tiers where you're constantly putting pieces to use from the previous and it flows together with attunements. I had an idea in my head of actually rolling things out exactly like they were, patch by patch. It would've been so cool. Then I compared it in my mind to the thing today, specifically regarding to loot balance. The thoughts I had regarding this hypothetical server were that I do as I said, but then thought about PvP gear ruining it(because most open-source server code sits in the latest patch, where the pvp gear is obtainable, meaning that even if you close off Sunwell, they'll still get inflated and invalidated by Brutal gear, making Gruuls and Maggy pointless). And here is the crux.

    The current retail model, is NOT manageable, in any way. Think about it. How do you manage these random procs, these random sockets and all the other stuff. You could do statistical analysis, but the outliers will always be present and they will brutally murder anyones motivation when people see others who have put in 0 effort achieving the same as them or often better. (heroic raider sees a normal raider with items up to M ilvl, where's the fairness in that?). There is no way, in any scenario that it's manageable.

    This mind exercise brought me to the conclusion that their only place where they can sort of manage and administrate the thing, is at the high end. The mythic end. You can kind of balance it there because you know that roughly, these people will not vary wildly 10 or 20 ilvls higher or lower like the folks raiding normal mode might. So you can kind of balance activities around it that are specifically for them. I.E. mythic raids. But even here, you can clearly notice from the last few iterations of raids in these 2 previous expansions(After M+ became a thing) of how utterly nonsensically tuned some of the last bosses are(to prevent them from being rolled over). Kil'Jaeden being a good example from ToS. Same really for the current expansions end-bosses.
    It shows how loot is not really a factor in progression anymore, which is actually really bad in my mind.

    I don't know if I'll even post this, I often do these long write ups and just delete them afterwards knowing how dumb people are and how many tend to strawman everything paragraph by paragraph but I guess the point is short and simple.

    The game sux right now. It's not only the loot, but the loot is the biggest problem. The reward system.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Huzzaa View Post

    The game sux right now. It's not only the loot, but the loot is the biggest problem. The reward system.
    It's a compilation of things. Reward systems, classes, content not being ever enough to continue for months... The list can grow from there.

  13. #113
    People only realise it now? Old content is not kept relevant is an issue for every game for literaly forever. The game just gets smaller the more "content" is released but people fail to realise it. That is just what it is.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Huzzaa View Post
    He's not wrong though.

    A friend of mine quit during 2008 and he literally said: "RIP game, Activision..." something something, the point was exactly what it had started to turn into during Wrath. An easy game. Aka. the accessibility that rapidly started flowing in.

    Wrath I personally enjoyed a lot myself but TBC awed me way more than Wrath ever did.

    I would say the same Nitros said. The actual golden age, was started in BC, lasted through it into Wrath but Wrath quickly proved the point on where the game started heading after.

    I do give Actit#ash a few more points for still keeping the game good up until the end of MoP, after which it was botched quite seriously(Cata doesn't even compare, the only bad thing there, was DS being smaller than a typical end raid, that's it) and Legion was pretty cool but looking back at it personally, that thing burned me out by then end of EN M.

    I hope they bring it back to a playable fun state of a game, but currently, they're not able to do it I think.

    Specifically to what's happening at this day.

    On another note.

    A few days ago I started thinking about compiling my own TBC server. Doing some development work on that front and perhaps even considering on attempts to balance the thing. This mind exercise brought me to a realization though when I started thinking about loot balance.

    The TBC model was a nice ladder-step between raids and tiers where you're constantly putting pieces to use from the previous and it flows together with attunements. I had an idea in my head of actually rolling things out exactly like they were, patch by patch. It would've been so cool. Then I compared it in my mind to the thing today, specifically regarding to loot balance. The thoughts I had regarding this hypothetical server were that I do as I said, but then thought about PvP gear ruining it(because most open-source server code sits in the latest patch, where the pvp gear is obtainable, meaning that even if you close off Sunwell, they'll still get inflated and invalidated by Brutal gear, making Gruuls and Maggy pointless). And here is the crux.

    The current retail model, is NOT manageable, in any way. Think about it. How do you manage these random procs, these random sockets and all the other stuff. You could do statistical analysis, but the outliers will always be present and they will brutally murder anyones motivation when people see others who have put in 0 effort achieving the same as them or often better. (heroic raider sees a normal raider with items up to M ilvl, where's the fairness in that?). There is no way, in any scenario that it's manageable.

    This mind exercise brought me to the conclusion that their only place where they can sort of manage and administrate the thing, is at the high end. The mythic end. You can kind of balance it there because you know that roughly, these people will not vary wildly 10 or 20 ilvls higher or lower like the folks raiding normal mode might. So you can kind of balance activities around it that are specifically for them. I.E. mythic raids. But even here, you can clearly notice from the last few iterations of raids in these 2 previous expansions(After M+ became a thing) of how utterly nonsensically tuned some of the last bosses are(to prevent them from being rolled over). Kil'Jaeden being a good example from ToS. Same really for the current expansions end-bosses.
    It shows how loot is not really a factor in progression anymore, which is actually really bad in my mind.

    I don't know if I'll even post this, I often do these long write ups and just delete them afterwards knowing how dumb people are and how many tend to strawman everything paragraph by paragraph but I guess the point is short and simple.

    The game sux right now. It's not only the loot, but the loot is the biggest problem. The reward system.
    The game changed to keep itself relevant. And until you can prove that everybody who has ever quit WoW only ever quit BECAUSE of design issues (note: you can't), your argument is pointless.

    There is a very real possibility had Blizzard never began to introduce accessibility features post-TBC that another AAA developer would have came out with a game that did and we'd probably wouldn't be celebrating WoW's 15th anniversary right now. (Additionally, the argument that WoW was better when raiding was more exclusive is easily defeated when you account for the fact that WoW has always been a casual MMO.) You can have opinions about what was and wasn't good for the game but it's incredibly narrow minded to associate everything pre-WotLK as "good" only because it was when WoW was in a growth period and everything else from WotLK onward as "bad" because that's when subscriber growth stopped.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2019-09-30 at 09:07 AM.

  15. #115
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Really? Show me a chart, please. Because I don't see a sub drop at all during WOTLK. I see it in Cata, when people like you yelled how awesome TBC was and dungeons should be hard again. The loss was insane at the start, people were used to Wrath dungeons at the end and they got things they weren't used to: interrupts needed, CC needed, lower aggro for tanks, things actually requiring proper tactics.

    And you know what else you're missing? Wrath had bloody Lich King, the one epic villain everybody and their mother knew from Warcraft 3. Cata had what, some evil dragon only those interested in lore knew about. My sister who doesn't play heard about LK, she never heard about Illidan or Ragnaros or what have you, getting "Kingslayer" was an important thing for a lot of people.

    So let's stop rationalizing stuff and pretending Wrath was bad, it was not. It was the most popular for a lot of reasons and just yelling it was only because the previous expansion was good is just being obtuse as this point.
    Half of WOTLK Subs would've still subbed even if TBC stayed out 12 months longer.

    lulz WOTLK
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  16. #116
    They dont need to kill mythic guilds now because they already killed the mythic participation when they got rid of 10man hc with Warlords, that change killed so many guilds its not even funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Wrath was when subs slowed down, hit their peak and started to decrease. Subs were always increasing during classic and TBC.

    It coasted on the tail of classic and TBC actually being good. WOTLK is when WoW started to go downhill. The world was all copy pasted non-threatening 12,600 hp mobs with no abilities, dungeons were too easy and not fun. The only good raid was Ulduar but the rest ranged from terrible to merely okay. Blizzard had started ruining pvp by giving the class abilities of each class to every other class and giving everyone 10,000 cooldowns.

    And they started to shrink the world by adding conveniences everywhere that ruined the immersion.

    The feel of classic WoW and TBC was gone in WOTLK.
    My theory is that beginning with hardmodes in Wotlk it was the first expansion where subpar players felt getting left behind, in the case of PvP it was Arena in BC, the amount of High Warlords and Grand Marshalls that couldnt even break 1800 was amazing tbh.

    All in all the harder the endgame got the more people who thought that they are better than they really are got left behind, thats basically why classic is a sucess it gives bad players a good feeling.
    Last edited by Lorianus; 2019-09-30 at 01:01 PM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    There have been high level departures at Blizzard related to the e-sports stuff, haven't there?
    They haven't pulled back on their e-sports commitment though. They just tightened up on the games they are promoting. The league is till going strong and seems to be expanding.

    The world's first race isn't really e-sports though. I think their e-sports stuff is more like the overwatch league and those tournaments they run. There is no official "prize" for the world's first, except bragging rights and sponsorships. I don't even think it is broadcast on the e-sport channels. I think it is more streamed on twitch etc.

    The Blizz devs claim they watch it closely (for exploits and to help put a final balance on the mythic bosses) and they enjoy it. I doubt they would try to kill it. Also, if they really wanted to kill it- there are several ways they could kill it, I doubt they would try to do it indirectly. They would make a statement and claim it is hurting the game or eating up too much resources and that they have to kill it for the good of the game- then they would do it directly. They wouldn't try to sneak in some round about way to try and trick everyone, without saying anything.

    Is the world's first race good for the game? Interesting question- I can see both sides of it. It certainly generates some excitement for the current raid tier. I think though, overall, it promotes toxic behavior that other guilds might try to mimic (to gain the same success) and that is probably bad for the game. Though not a massive resource drain, I imagine it does lock up some resources for the duration. I would consider it basically a "wash" with an edge towards toxicity.

  18. #118
    A "mercenary" guild that exists only to clear content, with no friendships or other social ties will die at some point regardless of content lifecycles. A content drought will kill off a guild quicker if all that was keeping those people together was the raid night 2-3 times a week.

    I stopped raid back in Legion, after Gul'dan, because my guild was basically just rotating in "mercs" that would float from guild to guild looking for progress that aligns with their expectancy. Legion was a "guild killer" for a lot of people and it eventually killed my guild because we went from being a long standing group, to a small group of friends that needed 10+ randoms to fill out the raid slots and we had to replace people left and right throughout the expansion.

    I feel like 40man raiding coming to an end was for the same reason why it feels like 20man raiding is slowly losing traction. These days it just gets harder and harder to find 20 like minded individuals that have any "loyalty" or "dedication" to the guild instead of just a series of mercenaries that will jump from guild to guild as they see fit.

    I'd welcome back the 10/25 hc. I appreciate that you'll never balance the two versions equally, but why can't we just have world firsts that focus on either or both? If Method wanted to stay 20 or 25man, they can compete with other 20/25 man guilds and the 10man guilds can compete with the 10man.

  19. #119
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    They need to be destroying all systems that aren't Timeless dungeons and raids and things that aren't dungeons and raids.

    If it isn't a dungeon or a raid, scrap it. We don't need anymore giant landmasses, giant islands with millions of mystical, undiscovered creatures, we don't need 1,000 more pets, 1,000 more mounts. All of those stupid things are starting to pile up and dwarf the actual shit that people care about, which is without debate raids and dungeons.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    So for raiding guilds which have already cleared the raid there is no point in raiding anymore.
    The gear you get in EP is useless with the next raid because the next season of m+ gear will have an ilvl of 460+, azshara drops no mount and the raid and classes are not that fun to justify raiding every week for the next 3-4 months.

    The question is: Are raiding guilds forced to either suffer through the next months or to risk a guild disbandment? Because we all know that there are some players who will never come back online if they stay offline for too long.

    Half serious question that is.

    Also you may think things like: "nobody is forcing you to play" or "Lol, my ret pally is super fun to me."
    If this is the case I kindly ask you to go to the next thread. This is about mythic raiding and if you dont understand the basic rules of it then what are you doing here?
    The problem is that raiding being the only reason for playing wow is stupid.

    That's why so many people quit, that's why many more prefer classic because it's not about raiding. Blizzards focus on raiding has gotten worse and worse, every expansion is a race to raid to kill the next boss, then when that wasn't enough they added a gazillion levels of raid difficulty and it still sucks.

    Blizzard needs to get off the raiding crutch and focus on the RPG aspect of "World" of warcraft.

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