The Lich King uses Necromancy magic and Sylvannas used pure death - Discussion

[huth]

Even if freya created it, is still an azeroth only thing.

You're missing the part where we have no guarantee that either explanation is correct. Blizzard is free to go ahead and reveal that the Dream is actually something else entirely.

Again do you have any proof to support the claim that the Dream exists across the Universe and not just in azeroth.

I'm not denying your claim of it being limited to Azeroth. I'm denying your claim that we have definite information about it's origins and nature, which you have not actually provided any proof for.

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a super reality that the titans in their travels never came across and that Chronicles despite being "pan-universal" as you said never mentions it except when is talking specifically about azeroth. got it.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That something isn't mentioned in the Chronicle does not mean it doesn't exist.
The Titans simply might never have bothered to check before Azeroth, not having any need for such a thing beforehand.

[Aucald]

a super reality that the titans in their travels never came across and that Chronicles despite being "pan-universal" as you said never mentions it except when is talking specifically about azeroth. got it.

The Titans never came about either the Emerald Dream or the Shadowlands, insofar was we know - the Emerald Dream was discovered by the Keeper Freya and the Shadowlands by Odyn, who was himself informed about it by a nameless "dark power" we still know nothing about. But then given the Titans' paramount concern was the physical universe, ordering worlds, and finding others of their kind it sort of makes sense they wouldn't have bothered with these things - they had other concerns.

[Piamonte]

You're missing the part where we have no guarantee that either explanation is correct. Blizzard is free to go ahead and reveal that the Dream is actually something else entirely.


I'm not denying your claim of it being limited to Azeroth. I'm denying your claim that we have definite information about it's origins and nature, which you have not actually provided any proof for.

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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That something isn't mentioned in the Chronicle does not mean it doesn't exist.
The Titans simply might never have bothered to check before Azeroth, not having any need for such a thing beforehand.

Saying that blizzard could add new lore in the future isnt an argument, is a generic thing to say. You could say this in pretty much any discussion, so is a meaningless statement, its like saying "the sky is blue".

even if we dont have guarantee, every single piece of lore that talks about the dream, specifically talks about azeroth, it never mentions other planets or the universe, in other words, all evidence points to the dream being a azeroth only thing.

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The Titans never came about either the Emerald Dream or the Shadowlands, insofar was we know - the Emerald Dream was discovered by the Keeper Freya and the Shadowlands by Odyn, who was himself informed about it by a nameless "dark power" we still know nothing about. But then given the Titans' paramount concern was the physical universe, ordering worlds, and finding others of their kind it sort of makes sense they wouldn't have bothered with these things - they had other concerns.

they visited a thousand worlds and never found anything remotely close to what the emerald dream is, yet when they arrive at azeroth is the first thing they discover, thats really really suspicious if you ask me.

[Aucald]

they visited a thousand worlds and never found anything remotely close to what the emerald dream is, yet when they arrive at azeroth is the first thing they discover, thats really really suspicious if you ask me.

Except the Titans did not discover the Emerald Dream, on Azeroth or anywhere else - the Keeper Freya did. So even if the Emerald Dream were entirely unique to Azeroth and nowhere else, the Titans still didn't find it.

[Piamonte]

Except the Titans did not discover the Emerald Dream, on Azeroth or anywhere else - the Keeper Freya did. So even if the Emerald Dream were entirely unique to Azeroth and nowhere else, the Titans still didn't find it.

It doesnt matter, the argument is the same, they visited millions of worlds, created titan keepers in all of them and the only time something like the Dream is created is in azeroth.

[Aucald]

It doesnt matter, the argument is the same, they visited millions of worlds, created titan keepers in all of them and the only time something like the Dream is created is in azeroth.

Which brings us back to square one of you speaking authoritatively on a matter for which an authoritative reference doesn't exist. We'll just say that you can believe you are right, and I'll continue to speculate as to the nature of the Dream or the realm in which it exists, and one day when and if the concept is objectively explored one of us will have the relative luxury of being "right" for whatever worth that has in context.

[Pandragon]

I think this is the first time in wow a character his used pure "Death Magic" the power that's higher level than necromancy. Which would tie in with her death god she keeps talking about.

It is the first time. Necromancy brings a corpse back to life into undeath. How ever what Sylvanas used just straight ripped Saurfangs soul from his body. There was no damage to his physical body at all from that blast. An attack of that magnitude would have decimated his body, unless it was only attacking his spirit.

[Piamonte]

Which brings us back to square one of you speaking authoritatively on a matter for which an authoritative reference doesn't exist. We'll just say that you can believe you are right, and I'll continue to speculate as to the nature of the Dream or the realm in which it exists, and one day when and if the concept is objectively explored one of us will have the relative luxury of being "right" for whatever worth that has in context.

All im saying is that the evidence points to one direction and you insist on going the other way for.. Reasons.

[huth]

All im saying is that the evidence points to one direction and you insist on going the other way for.. Reasons.

Except your evidence doesn't exist, as Aucald has shown.

[Piamonte]

Except your evidence doesn't exist, as Aucald has shown.

so the dream is created on azeroth, its called a dream because it comes from the dreams of a titan, the titans travel across theuniverse and it is never mentioned they (or their creations) made anything like this until they got to azeroth, every single piece of lore about the dream refers to azeroth and its been like that since wow vanilla and you are telling me somehow there is the possibilty that it also exists across the universe??i prefer to draw logical conclusions than to make wild guesses with nothing to support it.

[derpkitteh]

so the dream is created on azeroth, its called a dream because it comes from the dreams of a titan, the titans travel across theuniverse and it is never mentioned they (or their creations) made anything like this until they got to azeroth, every single piece of lore about the dream refers to azeroth and its been like that since wow vanilla and you are telling me somehow there is the possibilty that it also exists across the universe??i prefer to draw logical conclusions than to make wild guesses with nothing to support it.

the evidence points to it existing through the universe though. the orcs worshipping goldrinn and the rift of aln bleeding into the twisting nether show it exists into other places.

there's also nothing that says the titans didn't know about it. eyir is deeply attuned to life energy, she would likely know about it. but we don't know enough about any of them to say whether or not they knew of it.

[formerShandalay]

Regarding the titans knowing about the dream of a world soul: yes, we know they know about it. In the chronicle they mention it several times, one time when Aggramar senses the peaceful dream of Azeroth's world soul, although her surface is covered by the Black Empire and another time when Sargeras hears the nightmares of the worldsoul that is already being corrupted in its sleep (which he then kills).
And in Thousand Years of War Argus talks about the dream being his only respite from the torment.

Still, we don't get a definitive answer about the nature of the dream as a whole and only learn that Freya changed Azeroth's dream in some way to make it more resilient against the corruption.

[bufferunderrun]

Why does "death" have to have some absolute figure?

because we need a new villain that isn't lame, meaning that don't get a sudden power up like sylvanas or helya or azshara or a lame return like the LK or the old god; establishing a new credible force maybe using a mix of western and eastern "hell" would bring a bit of fresh air and new stories.

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But, unlike the rest of them, the Lich King wasn't answering to higher authority. If Death had "a figure of absolute power" akin to the Void Lords or Sargeras, its safe to assume that the Lich King would be their rival or at least not a minion, meaning that in any scenario he wouldn't be a "general at best".

or we never had that explained in detail, honestly speaking the old story of kil'jaden creating the LK sound really forced especially after legion, there is space for retconning the LK origin without making the character look dumb.

[Jalham]

because we need a new villain that isn't lame, meaning that don't get a sudden power up like sylvanas or helya or azshara or a lame return like the LK or the old god; establishing a new credible force maybe using a mix of western and eastern "hell" would bring a bit of fresh air and new stories.

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or we never had that explained in detail, honestly speaking the old story of kil'jaden creating the LK sound really forced especially after legion, there is space for retconning the LK origin without making the character look dumb.

They could explain it as, Kil'jaden simply killed/tore Ner'zul soul out and trapped him in the armor/blade. Ner'zul being a strong shaman in life and a strong user of "spirit" became a strong user of "decay" magic in death. Slowly learned/powered up to necromancy and moving up the power chains from their by himself over time.
"Maybe even gained/learned new abilities from tapping into the shadowlands ?"

[Rafoel]

They could explain it as, Kil'jaden simply killed/tore Ner'zul soul out and trapped him in the armor/blade. Ner'zul being a strong shaman in life and a strong user of "spirit" became a strong user of "decay" magic in death. Slowly learned/powered up to necromancy and moving up the power chains from their by himself over time.
"Maybe even gained/learned new abilities from tapping into the shadowlands ?"

It is foreshadowed that Frozen Throne itself is a key. Bwomsamdi in a quest where he sends you to meet Lich King mentions 2 important details:

1) "Dat kind of power smells of old magic" (about what happened to Voljin)

2) "Icecrown, it be more dan a pretty throne. It be an anchor dat holds dis world to da next, ya might say."

First, if a magic is old to Bwomsamdi, then its really fucking old. And Lich King is basically the most recent thing there is. And yet he sends you to the Lich King as potential source of this "old magic"...

Second is even more mysterious, yet - it was shown multiple times in the past that Frozen Throne is closely connected to Lich King's power. When the initial prison was broken by Eye of Sargeras, Lich King's power was dissipating, losing hold over many undead (thus, Forsaken) and slowly leading towards his complete destruction. It was also explicitly said that Lich King's power is the strongest near his throne. What's more, that's appearently the only place where he can be truly destroyed.

[Jalham]

It is foreshadowed that Frozen Throne itself is a key. Bwomsamdi in a quest where he sends you to meet Lich King mentions 2 important details:

1) "Dat kind of power smells of old magic" (about what happened to Voljin)

2) "Icecrown, it be more dan a pretty throne. It be an anchor dat holds dis world to da next, ya might say."

First, if a magic is old to Bwomsamdi, then its really fucking old. And Lich King is basically the most recent thing there is. And yet he sends you to the Lich King as potential source of this "old magic"...

Second is even more mysterious, yet - it was shown multiple times in the past that Frozen Throne is closely connected to Lich King's power. When the initial prison was broken by Eye of Sargeras, Lich King's power was dissipating, losing hold over many undead (thus, Forsaken) and slowly leading towards his complete destruction. It was also explicitly said that Lich King's power is the strongest near his throne. What's more, that's appearently the only place where he can be truly destroyed.

His throne has direct access to that source of power? The throne is built into/on a passage way to Shadowlands maybe ?? Or it contains a special items that has connection to it at least.

[formerShandalay]

I don't think Kil'jaeden put the icy throne made out of icy material from the Twisting Nether in the place atop icecrown glacier for no reason. He wanted to give the Lich King the best shot at controlling undead, so he put him in a place where he had a connection to the world of the living as well as the undead.
And I do think the almost completely broken Ner'zhul being able to trick Kil'jaeden and the Nathrezim as easily as he did and plotting his escape from the get go, may mean he learned a few tricks from being placed exactly there. He was also used to talking to the spirits of the deceased, so while the place was really good for the Lich King because of its connection to the shadowlands it was also really advantageous for Ner'zhul to regain strength and learn new powers.

Adding to this, I also don't think it was an accident that Yogg Saron was in that place either.^^

[derpkitteh]

They could explain it as, Kil'jaden simply killed/tore Ner'zul soul out and trapped him in the armor/blade.

that is what he did, yes. bound him in the helm of domination, probably using a fel-enhanced version of the augari's soulbinding(which seems to be void magic in WoD.)

[PelinalWhitestrake]

Sylvanas THREATENS the balance of Life and Death as Bolvar stated it.
Bolvar is probably more attuned to the Death entity than the other people.

[huth]

so the dream is created on azeroth, its called a dream because it comes from the dreams of a titan, the titans travel across theuniverse and it is never mentioned they (or their creations) made anything like this until they got to azeroth, every single piece of lore about the dream refers to azeroth and its been like that since wow vanilla and you are telling me somehow there is the possibilty that it also exists across the universe??i prefer to draw logical conclusions than to make wild guesses with nothing to support it.

You're not drawing logical conclusions, though. You're taking wild guesses and speculation and treat them as fact just because they come from the Chronicle, despite the Chronicle itself naming them as suppositions.