Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ...
6
7
8
9
LastLast
  1. #141
    I am Murloc! Kyphael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    5,711
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    But you're not exactly explaining how one altered state seems less deserving of it's place as 'existence' and the definition for existence you seem to refer to explicitely doesn't apply to beings crafted by the makers of worlds.... the 'made flesh' part was entirely corruption on the part of powers working against the titans using cosmically opposed forces.

    I get you're position vs undeath, but you doa very poor job explaining how it's unique beyond simply saying it's undeath and therefore worse. How is undeath different from stormforged/titanforged? Other soul based entities molded onto constructs? Should the likes of the Valarjar also consign themselves to an end of their own existence?

    You seem biased against a specific cosmic force depicted because of the domain it covers and that's about it.
    It's hard to make a convincing argument for it when Blizzard has done so poorly to properly explain the intricacies of death, afterlife, its cosmic and spiritual realms. My argument against Undeath boils down to real world parallels because that's all I have to go by. The Forsaken had their chance at existence. They started off as something, and their time expired, for better or worse, as unfair as it was. They entered into a state described by their leader as eternal damnation. They will suffer in the Shadowlands for it.

    Your argument is advocating for zombies or undead to have a place in the world among the living, be it intelligent Undead or not. That's macabre. Soul-based constructs exist as they were intended by design. Yes, humans, dwarves, and gnomes are by products of curses and other external forces as well, but those changes didn't make them parasitic. Undeath defiles the very land Undead walk, withering it away. Look at the Plaguelands. It's a burden on the planet and other living organisms.

    Even in media when Undead were depicted as somewhat sympathetic like in [film] Warm Bodies, it came with a cure. If Undead just want to exist "because" without contributing anything to the world around them, but in fact defiling it as their very presence does, it then becomes an infestation that can't be justified unless you really just like the playable race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    So what you are saying is that azeroth humans (and all other races) should commit suicide once they had children and all incapable of procreation should be killed on spot?
    No, it's a blanket statement but doesn't apply to every single individual. I'm not for example, saying Lillian Voss should drop dead, she could be the exception, but by and large, The Undead as a "race" doesn't have a purpose, and you've yet to explain what their purpose to "exist" is. Mortal races pass on their genes or teachings. Undead can't pro-create. What teachings will they pass on? "Death sucks. Don't die. Or you burn in hell. Can I eat you, now?"

  2. #142
    Herald of the Titans Tenebra the War Criminal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Telogrus Rift
    Posts
    2,939
    I concede to your point that Forsaken are no more in continuous mental anguish and pain than Void Elves and Worgen, you make a good point.
    The difference is that the void elves can train to reduce the power of those whispers. The undead cannot do anything to reduce their pain and sadness.
    "I have ignored them for too long. They speak the truth, Arator. And you will hear them. I will make you hear them!"

    Alleria fan.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    It's hard to make a convincing argument for it when Blizzard has done so poorly to properly explain the intricacies of death, afterlife, its cosmic and spiritual realms. My argument against Undeath boils down to real world parallels because that's all I have to go by. The Forsaken had their chance at existence. They started off as something, and their time expired, for better or worse, as unfair as it was. They entered into a state described by their leader as eternal damnation. They will suffer in the Shadowlands for it.

    Your argument is advocating for zombies or undead to have a place in the world among the living, be it intelligent Undead or not. That's macabre. Soul-based constructs exist as they were intended by design. Yes, humans, dwarves, and gnomes are by products of curses and other external forces as well, but those changes didn't make them parasitic. Undeath defiles the very land Undead walk, withering it away. Look at the Plaguelands. It's a burden on the planet and other living organisms.

    Even in media when Undead were depicted as somewhat sympathetic like in [film] Warm Bodies, it came with a cure. If Undead just want to exist "because" without contributing anything to the world around them, but in fact defiling it as their very presence does, it then becomes an infestation that can't be justified unless you really just like the playable race.
    My position argues that undeath as we see it is just anotehr variation of magically altered being. You seem to mark is as a very disntinct and exclusive variant because it is undeath. IMO using it as an end for the previous form of existence isn't anything different from any other fundamentally altered being and saying this variation is less deserving of existence because of your own narrow view of what justifies existence is... well retarded.

    The curse of flesh for example fundamentally altered teh original titan creations and their entire existences, so should the spawn that resulted from THAT alteration also be consigned to destruction because some entity views it as an abomination (like what could have happened with ulduar?)... if not, then why should the Forsaken or undead be? You don't really offer anything except saying undeath isn't natural. Neither was the curse of flesh. They don't breath, eat, copulate? Neither did those previous existences.

    IMO your view is really biased, overly specific, and you fail to provide any real reason except for circular logic saying undeath is bad because undead.

    edit:

    also you fail to really explain the purpose of existence and why it is as you believe. Why should the draenei exist? They had their time, their people sold themselves to the devil and those who disagreed fled to lead their fallen brethren across the universe.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra View Post
    The difference is that the void elves can train to reduce the power of those whispers. The undead cannot do anything to reduce their pain and sadness.
    citation need.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2019-10-12 at 11:01 PM.

  4. #144
    I hope so. Azeroth has too much dead shit running around willy-nilly.

  5. #145
    Under Calia they will 100% die out since they will not be able to replace bodyparts anymore since the flow of dead humans that they can use will stop.
    This is why Calia is a stupid choice to lead them since by following her they signed their doom and have no future.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Most Forsaken hate their existence, describing it as cold, dark, cut from emotions and so on. At several times it was Sylvanas alone who wanted the Forsaken to live eternally (well, mostly herself ofc), while several of her subjects would have welcomed their final death.
    Which raises the question of how many of them know what is awaiting them? Did Sylvanas tell anyone, even Nathanos, that because their souls have been twisted by undeath they're going to end up in a black, empty wasteland of nothingness for all eternity instead of whatever afterlife they've been hopeful of to be with their loved ones?

  7. #147
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Land of human potential (and non-toxic masculinity)
    Posts
    22,081
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    No, it's a blanket statement but doesn't apply to every single individual. I'm not for example, saying Lillian Voss should drop dead, she could be the exception, but by and large, The Undead as a "race" doesn't have a purpose, and you've yet to explain what their purpose to "exist" is. Mortal races pass on their genes or teachings. Undead can't pro-create. What teachings will they pass on? "Death sucks. Don't die. Or you burn in hell. Can I eat you, now?"
    I dunno, eating human meat and experimenting on innocents sound like good reasons to keep going.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Under Calia they will 100% die out since they will not be able to replace bodyparts anymore since the flow of dead humans that they can use will stop.
    This is why Calia is a stupid choice to lead them since by following her they signed their doom and have no future.
    Unless we use calia for spare parts.

  8. #148
    I am Murloc! Kyphael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    5,711
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    My position argues that undeath as we see it is just anotehr variation of magically altered being. You seem to mark is as a very disntinct and exclusive variant because it is undeath. IMO using it as an end for the previous form of existence isn't anything different from any other fundamentally altered being and saying this variation is less deserving of existence because of your own narrow view of what justifies existence is... well retarded.

    The curse of flesh for example fundamentally altered teh original titan creations and their entire existences, so should the spawn that resulted from THAT alteration also be consigned to destruction because some entity views it as an abomination (like what could have happened with ulduar?)... if not, then why should the Forsaken or undead be? You don't really offer anything except saying undeath isn't natural. Neither was the curse of flesh. They don't breath, eat, copulate? Neither did those previous existences.

    IMO your view is really biased, overly specific, and you fail to provide any real reason except for circular logic saying undeath is bad because undead.

    edit:

    also you fail to really explain the purpose of existence and why it is as you believe. Why should the draenei exist? They had their time, their people sold themselves to the devil and those who disagreed fled to lead their fallen brethren across the universe.


    - - - Updated - - -



    citation need.
    You do realize that your whole argument boils down to rotting corpses should get to continue to exist, right? Even within a fictional universe, that's kind of... "retarded." You keep drawing parallels to the curse of flesh which is Blizzard's mechanical solution at Darwinism. "Dwarves and gnomes came from Titan constructs." You advocate the continued, justifiable existence of undead by quantifying to "well dwarves used to be made of stone, and gnomes metal!" They existed as constructs before, they were biologically-altered to being of flesh, and adapted and evolved to live within the changing planet around them. The "curse" of flesh made them into living beings by definition. It was an alternation, whereas Undead literally EXPIRED, and got brought back, NOT REVIVED, brought back, as aberrations.

    I made my argument regarding how Undead do not fit into the planet they inhabit, and you've addressed no points to counter how they don't defile the very land they exist on, the point of their existence, and how they're not unnatural to the world and not parasitic. You keep quantifying their existence to other mechanically-altered species who past their alterations still did adapt and evolve to play a role in the ecological system they inhabit. Either counter those points successfully, or don't bother retorting, at this point you keep repeating the same things over and over regarding "just cause it's a cosmic force, it makes it natural!" A cosmic force categorized similarly to others can still be unnatural and parasitic to the others. If anything, they're presented as OPPOSITES, meaning, not meant to mingle. A Void Elf STRUGGLES with the void, it is not consumed by it. A dwarf altered by the curse of flesh on a biological level does not make it a VOID CREATURE just because said curse was created by a being that came from the Void.

    Getting to the point of the purpose of life, I'll break it down to you again, and again, rebuke these at any point.

    YOU, exist, to pro-create. That is your purpose in life, and any other living organism's from a heliocentric point of view, on the most biological level, whether you accept that or not, the human race exists to pro-create and keep the race going.

    Your ambitions, hopes and dreams exist in a geocentric point of view, meaning they are important to you, but not to nature, meaning everything every person does isn't important. It's important you now, but it won't be after you or I are long gone. That means again, you exist solely to pro-create. You are not OBLIGATED to do so, and many individual humans don't, thanks to free will, but the vast majority of the human race DOES, thus fulfilling that purpose. You live, you have babies, you die. Some just live and die and don't care to pass on their genetic make up. Nature doesn't care, most do. That is the meaning of life--pro-creation.

    Undead cannot pro-create. They cannot eat, they cannot drink, they exist outside the circle, and serve no purpose other than "I was alive... I got memories, life was good, warm, now I'm Undead... I don't want to die, I'll suffer, so I don't want to." *shrug*

    THAT'S IT. That's what Undead do. The ones who serve a purpose are meat shields in war that protect the living. Hopefully those that do maybe will escape the supposed inescapable fate Sylvanas saw, we don't know, Blizzard hasn't explained how the afterlife works, they barely have their shit together regarding how the cosmic forces all work. It doesn't mean Undeath isn't the opposite, unnatural end result that is counter to everything else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I dunno, eating human meat and experimenting on innocents sound like good reasons to keep going.
    At least you have a sense of humor about it. lol
    Last edited by Kyphael; 2019-10-13 at 12:14 AM.

  9. #149
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Land of human potential (and non-toxic masculinity)
    Posts
    22,081
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    At least you have a sense of humor about it. lol
    I dunno, it beats growing old and being hinderance.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    You do realize that your whole argument boils down to rotting corpses should get to continue to exist, right?
    They are sentient, have their own thoughts, speak of their own accord and exhibit free will...

    a bit more than mere rotting corpses but thank you for showing how you boil them down to JUST that.

    edit:

    you define life as your existence is to procreate... that's fine if that's your interpretation, but that isn't the be all end all and you saying anything different is wrong is incredibly, arrogant, pompous and well... rubs me the wrong way. You then make points that boil down to "well tough shit your luck ran out so you don't deserve to exist anymore" is also troubling to me. Why does this not hold water to discuss the resultant cursed entities that turned into something else? Apparently only because those other alterations fit with your bias and you argument to refute is that you find my argument for 'corpses' is wrong. You are the one stripping the group of anything beyond their physical appearance and disregarding everything except for your idea of biological imperative.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2019-10-13 at 01:03 AM.

  11. #151
    I am Murloc! Kyphael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    5,711
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    They are sentient, have their own thoughts, speak of their own accord and exhibit free will...

    a bit more than mere rotting corpses but thank you for showing how you boil them down to JUST that.

    edit:

    you define life as your existence is to procreate... that's fine if that's your interpretation, but that isn't the be all end all and you saying anything different is wrong is incredibly, arrogant, pompous and well... rubs me the wrong way. You then make points that boil down to "well tough shit your luck ran out so you don't deserve to exist anymore" is also troubling to me. Why does this not hold water to discuss the resultant cursed entities that turned into something else? Apparently only because those other alterations fit with your bias and you argument to refute is that you find my argument for 'corpses' is wrong. You are the one stripping the group of anything beyond their physical appearance and disregarding everything except for your idea of biological imperative.
    It seems we've reached a wall and best to agree to disagree at this point as we have differing views on every facet of this discussion.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    They are sentient, have their own thoughts, speak of their own accord and exhibit free will...

    a bit more than mere rotting corpses but thank you for showing how you boil them down to JUST that.

    edit:

    you define life as your existence is to procreate... that's fine if that's your interpretation, but that isn't the be all end all and you saying anything different is wrong is incredibly, arrogant, pompous and well... rubs me the wrong way. You then make points that boil down to "well tough shit your luck ran out so you don't deserve to exist anymore" is also troubling to me. Why does this not hold water to discuss the resultant cursed entities that turned into something else? Apparently only because those other alterations fit with your bias and you argument to refute is that you find my argument for 'corpses' is wrong. You are the one stripping the group of anything beyond their physical appearance and disregarding everything except for your idea of biological imperative.
    One could possibly argue that undead shouldn't exist as they are evil. They take beings that already have a spirit and warp them causing them to be slightly different then they once were personality wise while also keeping their former memories forcing them to live a miserable existence that not even they themselves want(at least most of them). And once these poor miserable souls can finally truly die they are sent to a hellish afterlife all because someone wanted more people like themselves. They don't even give people the option to become forsaken they choose for them. Had they been going around offering undeath it might be another story but they don't. And this is a world with magic do you really think they could find a way to talk to the spirits of the dead before raising them? So even if the living wouldn't take the offer there are plenty of dead who probably would.

    The only other "races" like that are demons and worgen and the only worgen that run around converting people are those who haven't been "purified" of the rage and cannot think or reason properly. And even then as far as I am aware you aren't doomed to some horrible afterlife when you become a worgen.

    I don't believe this I was just playing devils advocate as there are plenty of Forsaken/undead who don't go around trying to "recruit" more.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    One could possibly argue that undead shouldn't exist as they are evil. They take beings that already have a spirit and warp them causing them to be slightly different then they once were personality wise while also keeping their former memories forcing them to live a miserable existence that not even they themselves want(at least most of them). And once these poor miserable souls can finally truly die they are sent to a hellish afterlife all because someone wanted more people like themselves. They don't even give people the option to become forsaken they choose for them. Had they been going around offering undeath it might be another story but they don't. And this is a world with magic do you really think they could find a way to talk to the spirits of the dead before raising them? So even if the living wouldn't take the offer there are plenty of dead who probably would.
    Considering the Forsaken really lack the means to create undead except for the Valkyr, and their original recruitment was finding random corpses that 'woke up' it seems this should largely be directed at the entities capable of 'crafting' undead rather than the undead themselves.

  14. #154
    Hopefully they do. Just because they are not controlled by the LK's ramblings does not mean they are suddenly desirable individuals. They are beings who should be dead...

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Considering the Forsaken really lack the means to create undead except for the Valkyr, and their original recruitment was finding random corpses that 'woke up' it seems this should largely be directed at the entities capable of 'crafting' undead rather than the undead themselves.
    they do that on the orders of the leader of the forsaken.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    they do that on the orders of the leader of the forsaken.
    And who exactly has the power and ability to perform the process? It's not exactly a common skill

  17. #157
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Ashenvale.
    Posts
    700
    I've always found them boring as characters and a miserable existence, but by that same merit there will always be people in the story setting that crave to cling to existence no matter how painful it might be. WE have seen it with the Lich's and Necromancers before and I am sure the forsaken if they take the cult of forgotten shadow and simply offer it towards whomever wants to cheat death would likely keep enough volunteers to keep their population around. They likely won't grow all that much but outside of a concerted effort at extinction they should be stable. Just from what we have seen the desire to continue is not just around but semi common.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    YOU, exist, to pro-create. That is your purpose in life, and any other living organism's from a heliocentric point of view, on the most biological level, whether you accept that or not, the human race exists to pro-create and keep the race going.
    While this might be true for the real world, it is most definitely not true for the warcraft universe, life is not necessary, in fact the whole creation of the universe was nothing but an accident. The humans, dwarves, Orcs and gnomes in particular are pretty much just machines, broken machines at that, no longer fulfilling any kind of purpose.

  19. #159
    I am Murloc! Kyphael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    5,711
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    While this might be true for the real world, it is most definitely not true for the warcraft universe, life is not necessary, in fact the whole creation of the universe was nothing but an accident. The humans, dwarves, Orcs and gnomes in particular are pretty much just machines, broken machines at that, no longer fulfilling any kind of purpose.
    True, but in nature, as the saying goes, "life, uh, uh, finds a way." In their "cursed" new existences, they found a way to fit into Azeroth's ecosystem, and that's evolution.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •