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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    it's not quite like that. it would be like say paying for an art program, at first you go and there are 5 different brushes and abunch of references. you go back a few years later and now there are only 4 brushes but even more references. the price stays the same because they are still giving you just as many if not more things to base your art on but your favorite brush might not be there any more and you might not like marking art without as many tools as you had in the past.
    I'm assuming by references you mean content.

    Content doesn't matter to me at all.

    Warlords of Draneor is a big example. The main reason subs dropped nearly 50% was because of lack of content, or the general theme of it. It was trash, the selfie cam patch definitely left a mark, afk garrison was just horrible. However, classes were fun to play, multistrike was a fun stat, my character was just fun.

    I value my brushes more than the references, if they take all of my brushes away, what do i have?
    Last edited by Beefkow; 2019-10-05 at 12:03 AM.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Black Man of Steal View Post
    I honestly don't get why people have a problem with classes and talents in BFA, but I don't raid beyond LFR.
    literally only mouthbreathers that don't play talk about the talents/classes

    Case in point, beefkow

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    But it's not. By far the #1 complaint people in this game have is spec/talent design. I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.
    I'm content with Holy Priest now that we have Essences

  4. #384
    Bloodsail Admiral Proper Ninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    I don't think the content in BFA is bad on a fundamental level, outside of them forgetting to add things back to the game (mat vendors, for example) the primary issue with the game is spec/talent design. Most of the specs in the game just feel bad to play, they just aren't fun. You can blame some of this on the GCD change (which to this day makes no coherent sense to me) but many specs have such little talent diversity you could remove most talents and it wouldn't matter even slightly. There are talents in the game that are so bad, they're a dps loss over taking no talent at all. People will play bad content if the specs are fun to play, but when the specs aren't fun to play then no matter how good your content is people are just going to stop.

    I really just don't get the mentality blizzard had going into BFA, they were repeatedly warned by people playing the beta that many specs just felt awful and kept insisting azerite was going to fix it, and that never materialized. And because blizzard doesn't like doing large reworks mid xpac, we're now left with a bunch of specs that likely won't be fixed or fun to play until next expansion, if they're ever fixed at all.

    The only solution I can see going forward is to roll back some of the massive redesigns they've done over the years and restore classes to what they used to be, and then tune the numbers. Because when we do lose azerite and essences, we're going to be left in the exact same situation we're in now, specs that feel incomplete and clunky to play.
    this is the only problem with retail that blizz overlooked. my opinion is on the money.
    “Choose a job you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life” “Logic will get you from A to Z; Imagination will get you everywhere.”

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Proper Ninja View Post
    this is the only problem with retail that blizz overlooked. my opinion is on the money.
    BFA is made for shareholders, not the customer.

    Blizzard is just a greedy cooperation that will do whatever it takes to add in in-game mounts/pets/cosmetics/etc.

  6. #386
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    But it's not. By far the #1 complaint people in this game have is spec/talent design. I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.
    Talent and spec design in every expansion have always been met with a wide variety of opinions.....to say it isn't means you speak for everyone.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    BFA is made for shareholders, not the customer.

    Blizzard is just a greedy cooperation that will do whatever it takes to add in in-game mounts/pets/cosmetics/etc.
    None of this makes sense. People have to buy the expansion and play it so they'll stay subscribed. .

  8. #388
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Black Man of Steal View Post
    I honestly don't get why people have a problem with classes and talents in BFA, but I don't raid beyond LFR.
    It's always been this way. You can give a player a one hit kill weapon and they will complain about the look.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    It's always been this way. You can give a player a one hit kill weapon and they will complain about the look.
    I don't mind changes at all.

    But when they take stuff away expansion by expansion, it gets old really fast.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    I don't mind changes at all.

    But when they take stuff away expansion by expansion, it gets old really fast.
    What did they take away?

  11. #391
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Black Man of Steal View Post
    What did they take away?
    That's a big list.....

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    That's a big list.....
    Give me a top 3.

  13. #393
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    I'm assuming by references you mean content.

    Content doesn't matter to me at all.

    Warlords of Draneor is a big example. The main reason subs dropped nearly 50% was because of lack of content, or the general theme of it. It was trash, the selfie cam patch definitely left a mark, afk garrison was just horrible. However, classes were fun to play, multistrike was a fun stat, my character was just fun.

    I value my brushes more than the references, if they take all of my brushes away, what do i have?
    In this case ya the references would be content. So then it comes down to what are you personally paying for. Are you paying for just the reference(content) or the brushes (classes) or a mix of both.

    I personally lean more towards content as the classes I like (hunter pally) got put into a state I didn’t like in cata and are only now recovering even though they still miss a lot.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    Talent and spec design in every expansion have always been met with a wide variety of opinions.....to say it isn't means you speak for everyone.
    Blizzard themselves have admitted they messed up class design in BFA dude. You're completely ignoring the context here, they were told over and over again that specs felt bad on the beta and kept insisting azerite would fix it.

    Azerite failed to do so for most specs, the classes are too pruned, there's almost no talent diversity in the game. I've played this game since vanilla and it's hard to claim spec/class design hasn't been getting worse since at least MOP.
    Last edited by asil; 2019-10-05 at 01:06 AM.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    In this case ya the references would be content. So then it comes down to what are you personally paying for. Are you paying for just the reference(content) or the brushes (classes) or a mix of both.

    I personally lean more towards content as the classes I like (hunter pally) got put into a state I didn’t like in cata and are only now recovering even though they still miss a lot.
    I pay to play my character.

    90% character/10% world/content.

    I mean, its an MMORPG. You are role playing as you adventurer through Azeroth, your character is everything.

    You level up, you get stronger, you gain more knowledge, more abilities, more powerful. I love progressing and obtaining more things. It was definitely understandable when blizz had to start the pruning process release of WOD, it made sense, too much ability bloat, everybody had everything, and the numbers were too big (according to the game engine or w/e).

    I play a tauren warrior and I've always loved the fantasy of being this mammoth sized creature destroying everyone in my wake. I played bfa and it feels like i'm tickling my enemies, my rotation is boring, and it's slow, it's depressing.
    Last edited by Beefkow; 2019-10-05 at 01:12 AM.

  16. #396
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Black Man of Steal View Post
    Give me a top 3.
    Hunters got butchered badly between wrath and Legion, they went from having ranged and melee in specs to losing melee in specs (not all specs) to melee in a one spec.....slots all fucked up throughout the years.

    Warlocks had some weird shit happen to them some of it was good then they butchered demonology to make way for demon hunters. Glyph of demon hunting got 86'd...not quite sure if people got real vocal about it but I remember some players raging over warlock specs quite a few times over the expansions.

    Shamans got tore the fuck up......enhancement and ele shamans went from hitting hard to hitting like wet noodles.

  17. #397
    There's certainly some underperforming specs and wonky talents, but it will never be perfect. How could it? How could you realistically balance a game in such a way to please millions of people. I would hardly call the current design bad, but there are improvements to be made.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by wigs mcintyre View Post
    There's certainly some underperforming specs and wonky talents, but it will never be perfect. How could it? How could you realistically balance a game in such a way to please millions of people.
    When the ratio is 99% on one and 1% in the other, something is wrong.

    But ya, it's understandable that it's not possible to get a perfect balance, can't please everyone.... right?

    https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...alents/warrior

    99.14% carnage/frothing berserker 0.5%/massacare 0.36%.

    This was taking to account assuming people only killed 1/8 in mythic raid difficulty. A rough estimate, but you get the point.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    I don't think the content in BFA is bad on a fundamental level, outside of them forgetting to add things back to the game (mat vendors, for example) the primary issue with the game is spec/talent design. Most of the specs in the game just feel bad to play, they just aren't fun. You can blame some of this on the GCD change (which to this day makes no coherent sense to me) but many specs have such little talent diversity you could remove most talents and it wouldn't matter even slightly. There are talents in the game that are so bad, they're a dps loss over taking no talent at all. People will play bad content if the specs are fun to play, but when the specs aren't fun to play then no matter how good your content is people are just going to stop.

    I really just don't get the mentality blizzard had going into BFA, they were repeatedly warned by people playing the beta that many specs just felt awful and kept insisting azerite was going to fix it, and that never materialized. And because blizzard doesn't like doing large reworks mid xpac, we're now left with a bunch of specs that likely won't be fixed or fun to play until next expansion, if they're ever fixed at all.

    The only solution I can see going forward is to roll back some of the massive redesigns they've done over the years and restore classes to what they used to be, and then tune the numbers. Because when we do lose azerite and essences, we're going to be left in the exact same situation we're in now, specs that feel incomplete and clunky to play.
    Class Design was always bad
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy
    People just want to be bullies without facing any sort of consequences or social fallout for being a bully. If you declare X as a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. person you can say or do whatever you want to them, ignoring the fact that they are a human.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    Blizzard themselves have admitted they messed up class design in BFA dude. You're completely ignoring the context here, they were told over and over again that specs felt bad on the beta and kept insisting azerite would fix it.

    Azerite failed to do so for most specs, the classes are too pruned, there's almost no talent diversity in the game. I've played this game since vanilla and it's hard to claim spec/class design hasn't been getting worse since at least MOP.
    No, i suggest o rewatch that video, they never said that.

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