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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkol View Post
    Imagine actually thinking every class is the same. Among all specs, energy specs probably play the most similarly, but even then, there are variations. Even if you had correct groups based on resources(You don't), it's not the base resource which dictates playstyle in the first place.
    Load of word salad. They are right, with a quick overview, they all play VERY similar, and it is only the micro differences that some people focus in on. But you have to go looking for them. Notice how you didnt actually list the dramatic differences between those specs listed, but instead went with a soft insult, and some word salad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean imps ARE a resource. Demo has multiple resources, it has soul shards, it has imps (since you can spend imps with implosion or power siphon) and it has demonic core stacks.
    Demo is probably one of the most unique specs in WoW right now and for the first time it seems to match the spec fantasy, Blizzard did a solid job.
    Its also really fluid. I think they did a good job with it and enjoy it for the most part.

  2. #542
    Old school left, new guys are not that good.

    And there's also the fact that Blizzard in 2002-2006 didn't have it's hands tied by corporate managers.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Load of word salad. They are right, with a quick overview, they all play VERY similar, and it is only the micro differences that some people focus in on. But you have to go looking for them. Notice how you didnt actually list the dramatic differences between those specs listed, but instead went with a soft insult, and some word salad.
    Eh, the base gameplay will of course be similar. How many different base gameplays can even exist within the limitations of the WoW engine? We have a very large number of specs so of course there will be similarities. The "minor differences" are the ones that matter. Now there are ways to add new gameplay styles of course; Legion essentially did by reaching a critical number of Off GCD abilities and thus many classes had a high APM playstyle that was quite unique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Its also really fluid. I think they did a good job with it and enjoy it for the most part.
    You do need to reach certain breakpoints to make it fluid; you need enough haste and certain azerite traits. But once you get there it works. While leveling though it can be a bit frustrating.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    "their arrogance"

    Fuckin lol

    Surely blizzard, a triple A game manufacturing company, doesn't know more than y'all on this here fansite.
    Because being a triple A company automatically means they're fucking omniscience. Sega falls into the same problem with its fans making a more well-recieved and quality game than the main team has in YEARS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy
    People just want to be bullies without facing any sort of consequences or social fallout for being a bully. If you declare X as a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. person you can say or do whatever you want to them, ignoring the fact that they are a human.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by UnluckyAmateur View Post
    Because being a triple A company automatically means they're fucking omniscience. Sega falls into the same problem with its fans making a more well-recieved and quality game than the main team has in YEARS.
    okay well do better then

  6. #546
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Even though this is all down to your personal opinion, it is true that they have lost a bit of strength on that area and I blame the new system (since Legion), which is based on having expansion specific talents that we unlock over time, instead of focusing in a raw talent system.

    They do this to keep people engaged, as if you have the best talent system since day one, many would get tired of it. I would not, but many complained about this in the past.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    okay well do better then
    You have far too much faith in big companies, sad really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy
    People just want to be bullies without facing any sort of consequences or social fallout for being a bully. If you declare X as a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. person you can say or do whatever you want to them, ignoring the fact that they are a human.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Even though this is all down to your personal opinion, it is true that they have lost a bit of strength on that area and I blame the new system (since Legion), which is based on having expansion specific talents that we unlock over time, instead of focusing in a raw talent system.

    They do this to keep people engaged, as if you have the best talent system since day one, many would get tired of it. I would not, but many complained about this in the past.
    The original prune in WoD did not really feel that bad when it came to gameplay. Cutting down certain abilities that were all flavor was frankly stupid but imo that's the extent of the problem. Beyond that what it mostly tried to do is cut down on the extreme mobility MoP for the first time afforded ranged.
    With Legion there was a further prune but it came with an extensive redesign and with two systems (Artifacts and Legendaries) that more than made up for what was lost. Most specs played like crap in Legion launch, several played just fine once you had two gold traits, most played well by the time you had two decent legendaries and a full artifact, nearly all played well with the 7.2 changes and BiS Legendaries (and of the few that didn't some were fixed in 7.3 like feral). Imo only shadow and demonology really suffered at the end of Legion and both because of a botched redesign (and demo got turned around for 8.0 into a brilliant spec). By the end of Legion, most of us were walking gods with so many passive cleave and defensive effects and multiple legendary options.

    The problem is mostly BfA imo. BfA stripped all the additional systems that made specs work and barely gave anything back.

    I think an interesting solution to constant progression however is Benthic.
    Imagine this. We have classes and specs and all of them are pretty solid from the start. Leveling replaces the old system with the new system and there is some limited power progression.
    But then imagine if each type of content has its OWN progression. Beyond lamenting my poor, poor bags just think about what that would mean. Gear with tailored passive effects (or gear sets in order for them not to have THAT many effects) that work only in a specific environment. A set that procs when you complete a quest or world quest or when you kill a rare mob. Another that activates when you are near a capture point in pvp. A set that interacts with specific M+ affixes. Each raid having a set that only works within the raid and maybe the adjoining zone.
    What this would mean is that:
    a) you no longer need +30 ilvls between raids. A much smaller increase (+15) would be more than enough.
    b) your gear is best for the type of content your prefer to do. Entry gear could exist for Raids, PvP and M+ available from easier content (world content and LFG Heroic dungeons) that gives you those sets at much lower ilvl and only covers a much smaller number of slots.

    That way you could have constant progress that is local to a specific type of content and would not need to reinvent the core of the class or make the basic classes play badly at the start just to build them up at the end.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What a strange thing to say. Why did you make it about classic? Are you obsessed with classic?
    Under what context would you suggest that I am obsessed with classic?

    I really like classic as a game, and I play it alongside retail. You asked the dude something silly - to name 15 specs he enjoys, and finds fluid/etc. I found two specialisations fun in mists of pandaria, Destruction and Affliction warlock. I've played Warrior, Hunter, Paladin, Deathknight and Monk in MoP, all specs, in addition to my warlock main, yet I never really liked any other specs. Does my personal preference mean that MoP had shit class design? No, and neither do yours.

    The correct way to approach this problem is to neutrally see what is wrong with the specs, rather than try to enforce your decision by whether the person you are arguing with likes an arbitary amount of specs you just decided on the fly.

    I used classic as an example because it seems like it gets brought up for literally everything bad about BFA, and acting as if classic is the holy grail. My bad if you aren't one of them. However, please do not 'hang' on that specific part of my reply. If this is the focus of your next reply to me, I will just ignore you, as further discussion on that would be pointless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnluckyAmateur View Post
    You have far too much faith in big companies, sad really.
    I mean you say that, but all these super amazing class designers we have here in mmo-champion could then simply apply to blizz with their class design PhDs and get in, and get us the game we truly want! They must all be so well-versed in class design, considering 99% of the ideas in mmo champion, story-wise, feature-wise or class design-wise, has been utter shit, or so vague that you might as well say 'make the class cooler!' and act as if that's proper feedback.

    Not that blizzard is an amazing gaming company sadly, but until you badasses actually get hired and fix the game, I think I will trust blizzard more than you guys. It's not like Blizz is just declining the best class designers this industry has to offer, and sticks to its cleaning crew to do class design.

  10. #550
    I was shocked when i started playing my classes in WoD. My Arms Warrior, Destruction Warlock and Frost Knight all felt very different and the gameplay was disgusting compared to MoPs standards.

    Personally, in the face of classic, i think the MoP philosophy would work well, especially combined with better talent trees. A combination of the old and current talent trees would help quite a bit if well designed.

    And Blizzard has to lose its mentality ala "You play like we want to play the game. Otherwise, fun isn't allowed and we will destroy any play style you might find utterly and forever!" when it comes to the design of classes, on top investing only the absolute minimum when it comes to class design or redesign. A lot of classes are a disgusting mess in BfA. How can it be that nothing happens at all. That wasn't the case back in Vanilla, BC, Wotlk, Cata and MoP.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart11 View Post
    I was shocked when i started playing my classes in WoD. My Arms Warrior, Destruction Warlock and Frost Knight all felt very different and the gameplay was disgusting compared to MoPs standards.

    Personally, in the face of classic, i think the MoP philosophy would work well, especially combined with better talent trees. A combination of the old and current talent trees would help quite a bit if well designed.

    And Blizzard has to lose its mentality ala "You play like we want to play the game. Otherwise, fun isn't allowed and we will destroy any play style you might find utterly and forever!" when it comes to the design of classes, on top investing only the absolute minimum when it comes to class design or redesign. A lot of classes are a disgusting mess in BfA. How can it be that nothing happens at all. That wasn't the case back in Vanilla, BC, Wotlk, Cata and MoP.
    I felt the same when I mained a monk in MoP and it's odd to say the least. I do agree that we should have a blend of old and new and I think the closest we've had to that was the artifact system despite it still being somewhat linear in its approach but still pretty good overall. After playing classic I have a brand new appreciation for auto-attacking weirdly enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post

    I mean you say that, but all these super amazing class designers we have here in mmo-champion could then simply apply to blizz with their class design PhDs and get in, and get us the game we truly want! They must all be so well-versed in class design, considering 99% of the ideas in mmo champion, story-wise, feature-wise or class design-wise, has been utter shit, or so vague that you might as well say 'make the class cooler!' and act as if that's proper feedback.

    Not that blizzard is an amazing gaming company sadly, but until you badasses actually get hired and fix the game, I think I will trust blizzard more than you guys. It's not like Blizz is just declining the best class designers this industry has to offer, and sticks to its cleaning crew to do class design.
    Amazing, you're just wildly throwing out fallacies and text feces like an insane prisoner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy
    People just want to be bullies without facing any sort of consequences or social fallout for being a bully. If you declare X as a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. person you can say or do whatever you want to them, ignoring the fact that they are a human.

  12. #552
    I have my fingers and toes crossed that they can give all classes and specs a decent overhaul that works in 9.0 now that they realize they went abit too far in dumbing down the classes and changing them so much.

    Over the years our classes have somehow regressed rather than progressed.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity River View Post
    I have my fingers and toes crossed that they can give all classes and specs a decent overhaul that works in 9.0 now that they realize they went abit too far in dumbing down the classes and changing them so much.

    Over the years our classes have somehow regressed rather than progressed.
    With a new expansion every other year there is no time to revamp all classes, test them and all other things than need to be balanced around it.

    For a full class revamp we need more time for development.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by UnluckyAmateur View Post
    I felt the same when I mained a monk in MoP and it's odd to say the least. I do agree that we should have a blend of old and new and I think the closest we've had to that was the artifact system despite it still being somewhat linear in its approach but still pretty good overall. After playing classic I have a brand new appreciation for auto-attacking weirdly enough.



    Amazing, you're just wildly throwing out fallacies and text feces like an insane prisoner.
    Amazing, calling me an insane prisoner, as you have no proper argument. But I guess that's the best you can do, considering you are just a random poster who literally has no experience in class design, or anything when it comes down to how to make games, yet you somehow believe that the dumpster fire ideas that mmo-chads come up with are what will save WoW. Go on, amuse us further.

    With that being said, I believe that blizzard can indeed do better. However, I do not think that the mmo community really has any solid ideas regarding reworks/etc.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by babyback View Post
    With a new expansion every other year there is no time to revamp all classes, test them and all other things than need to be balanced around it.

    For a full class revamp we need more time for development.
    Tbh I wouldnt mind if we didnt get a new class with the new expansion as long as they did a good job with the current class/spec combos.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean imps ARE a resource. Demo has multiple resources, it has soul shards, it has imps (since you can spend imps with implosion or power siphon) and it has demonic core stacks.
    Demo is probably one of the most unique specs in WoW right now and for the first time it seems to match the spec fantasy, Blizzard did a solid job.
    They are and they are not resource at the same time. You can NOT spend it if you are going ST. None of the other builder/spender classes can do that. They are also delayed + decaying resource that deals damage by itself.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity River View Post
    Tbh I wouldnt mind if we didnt get a new class with the new expansion as long as they did a good job with the current class/spec combos.
    Me neither and I wouldn’t mind an expansion being longer either and with major patches instead.

    But I don’t think others agree.

    An expansion creates an illusion of progression and something being entirely new. A patch is just a patch even if it’s a major one. Especially with the current release schedule of expansions.
    Last edited by babyback; 2019-10-15 at 11:11 AM.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    @JavelinJoe maybe DK players feel that way because from the very beginning Unholy was thematically the most "DK-ish" spec. While Blood has always been a half assed vampire spec (thematically, not gameplay-wise) and Frost was oddly similar to a melee Frost Mage, Unholy had a strong focus on pets and diseases, i.e. dots. Going from that style of gameplay to builder/spender spec #52493... feels bad man.
    Yeah I do understand why they want it that way, im just saying from a purely gameplay perspective, as some others such as Preach gaming has said, I think UH is arguably the best playing spec in the entire game. I play every class, bar priest, and while I have lots of love for many specs and classes, UH really is incredibly rewarding. Its a builder spender, yet dosent feel too fast or slow, or repetetive, it has burst windows and sustain windows, its really really really well designed right now.

    I dont think Blizz will change it for that matter, but we will see, either way I think almost every class suffers from this. For example I was unbelievably happy that SV hunter became Melee like it always was supposed to be. The class is called Hunter, not Ranger. Theres no reason that we shouldnt have a spec like that and despite 90% of hunters not liking it, I believe it was a good decision. You'll always upset someone to please another, you really cant win in Blizzards world.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart11 View Post
    Personally, in the face of classic, i think the MoP philosophy would work well, especially combined with better talent trees. A combination of the old and current talent trees would help quite a bit if well designed.
    I think that's next to impossible to unite with each other.

    A lot of the "Pro MoP" Argument is that your character was extremely powerful and that you could handle a variety of situations well.

    Classic is basically the opposite to that, it's designed in such fashion that certain classes / specs flat out suck in a given situation or do not have the tools to handle a given situation.
    They are in certain situations extremely reliant on other people doing their shit.

    A common example that i raise are interrupts, in Classic, even something simple as having an interrupt was something that not every class did have.
    In the current age (which is still influenced by MoP in that regard) every Dps spec has an interrupt, back in MoP, even Healer such as Paladin and Monk did have a baseline interrupt.

    In Classic / TBC, if you happen to play a Tank / Heal class that did not have an interrupt, all you could do is hope that the people that have an interrupt do their job, in MoP you could make up for their fuck ups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart11 View Post
    How can it be that nothing happens at all. That wasn't the case back in Vanilla, BC, Wotlk, Cata and MoP.
    It's a pretty broad discussion that i think most players avoid because they're not exactly thinking over this subject too hard.

    The unpopular opinion is: Powercreep is an issue, you can't throw everything onto classes until they just feel extremely sameish or cause problems in other areas.
    Next to that, you also have to keep in mind that content needs to be designed around the given tools that players have, there's a reason why so many encounters have a "high damage phase" where the group / raid takes a shit ton of damage, because so many classes have received tools to counter them.

    It also causes issues on other ends, take mobility for example.
    Compare the mobility of the average Melee spec before MoP with the ones now, both Monk and DH are just on another level.
    This causes issues in PvP, Ranged classes need tools to keep these Melees at bay, no other Melees also require some tools to keep up.

    It's an armsrace that gets increasingly difficult to keep a lid on, right now so a lot of melees shit over Casters in a 1v1 situation but get blown out of the water once they enter Rated 3v3 battles.

    On top of that, a lot of things that were previously implemented no longer matters.
    Threat was a big deal in classic, Blizzard then implemented tools such as Misdirect / Tricks of the trade to combat this.
    Then Blizzard made threat a non issue in Wotlk, suddenly those tools lost a lot of value.

    BC / Wotlk was also an era that essentially fixed issues of the classic design, such as certain specs not even having the most basic tools for an rotation, you can also add so many spells to your standard rotation before it gets bloated.
    Sure, lots of buttons are fun, but having 15 different sources of damage where nothing seems to really pack a punch is also not terribly amazing.

    I get it, people hate pruning, but not every spell fills the niche that it once did and Blizzard has a point when they say they can't just throw so much new shit at players every expansion.
    I don't mean to defend their work, they've gotten lazy with BfA but it's also not that they can simply dump new stuff into the game every expansion without taking a look at the greater picture.

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    Amazing, calling me an insane prisoner, as you have no proper argument. But I guess that's the best you can do, considering you are just a random poster who literally has no experience in class design, or anything when it comes down to how to make games, yet you somehow believe that the dumpster fire ideas that mmo-chads come up with are what will save WoW. Go on, amuse us further.

    With that being said, I believe that blizzard can indeed do better. However, I do not think that the mmo community really has any solid ideas regarding reworks/etc.
    Again, I'm not entertaining you if you continue to throw out wild fallacies and having 100% faith that blizzard knows better than everyone else when that's been proven to be false and they've admitted to such numerous times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy
    People just want to be bullies without facing any sort of consequences or social fallout for being a bully. If you declare X as a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. person you can say or do whatever you want to them, ignoring the fact that they are a human.

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