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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Detritivores View Post
    This is the most troubling. Current loot and class design is straight cancer, and they received that message in no uncertain terms. Their response was fuck you guys we do what we want go pay to play a 15 year old "classic" unfucked version of the game next year.
    With everything blizzard did...

    1. Players play more.
    2. Competitive PvE is played more then before.
    3. The whole interest for competitive PvE surprised everyone. MDI vs Arena, who'd have thought that scripted NPC encounter is watched by more people as Players vs Player.

    Everything Blizzard did with LEGION was hated, from the start till the end - AND STILL it was a success for the active players of the game.

    You can say what ever you want about Blizzard, WoW DEVs or CMs, but they seem to understand the game and how it affects player behavior much better as the average MMO-C forum troll.

    I honestly don't care what they change or bring as next feature, I still enjoy WoW and as a regular player I don't mind changes at all.

    But please dont idolize Classic that much. Classic is a great way out for players who can't make the BfA community requirements for anything above casual stuff and thats OK, since doing WorldQuest and LFR as the only thing in BfA might get boring over time.
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  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    With everything blizzard did...

    1. Players play more.
    2. Competitive PvE is played more then before.
    3. The whole interest for competitive PvE surprised everyone. MDI vs Arena, who'd have thought that scripted NPC encounter is watched by more people as Players vs Player.

    Everything Blizzard did with LEGION was hated, from the start till the end - AND STILL it was a success for the active players of the game.

    You can say what ever you want about Blizzard, WoW DEVs or CMs, but they seem to understand the game and how it affects player behavior much better as the average MMO-C forum troll.

    I honestly don't care what they change or bring as next feature, I still enjoy WoW and as a regular player I don't mind changes at all.

    But please dont idolize Classic that much. Classic is a great way out for players who can't make the BfA community requirements for anything above casual stuff and thats OK, since doing WorldQuest and LFR as the only thing in BfA might get boring over time.
    I mean following that train of logic, the most predatory loot box mechanics are also the most successful for example. They increase player engagement in the most insidious evil ways, but they increase it.

    Something being successful =/= something being good.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    I don't think the content in BFA is bad on a fundamental level, outside of them forgetting to add things back to the game (mat vendors, for example) the primary issue with the game is spec/talent design. Most of the specs in the game just feel bad to play, they just aren't fun. You can blame some of this on the GCD change (which to this day makes no coherent sense to me) but many specs have such little talent diversity you could remove most talents and it wouldn't matter even slightly. There are talents in the game that are so bad, they're a dps loss over taking no talent at all. People will play bad content if the specs are fun to play, but when the specs aren't fun to play then no matter how good your content is people are just going to stop.

    I really just don't get the mentality blizzard had going into BFA, they were repeatedly warned by people playing the beta that many specs just felt awful and kept insisting azerite was going to fix it, and that never materialized. And because blizzard doesn't like doing large reworks mid xpac, we're now left with a bunch of specs that likely won't be fixed or fun to play until next expansion, if they're ever fixed at all.

    The only solution I can see going forward is to roll back some of the massive redesigns they've done over the years and restore classes to what they used to be, and then tune the numbers. Because when we do lose azerite and essences, we're going to be left in the exact same situation we're in now, specs that feel incomplete and clunky to play.
    I'm not a fan of BFA class design but like, seriously what talent is a straight up DPS loss? Sounds like bullshit to me. You're just whining about things that have been mentioned before, what are you trying to accomplish with this post? You just want social acceptance of your opinion? Blizzard is not reading this and even if they did they would just roll their eyes at yet again another whine post about the same old crap, with extra opinion and even less useful examples or solutions.

    Also assuming we're gonna just lose azerite and essences without gaining anything in another form, it's like you started playing yesterday, everyone knows there's gonna be some new stuff in the next xpack to have some kind of similar progression.

    You just need to take a walk, breathe in some fresh air to cool off all that anger.
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  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    I know what you mean and how some think we should go back to just having 12 classes rather than 36 or whatever it is if you consider every spec to be a class of their own. But i do prefer to have all these 36 viable classes. I enjoy playing as a frost mage or fire mage or arcane mage and have each of the disciplines more fleshed out than a let's say... multi-art mage that doesn't go as deep on each discipline?

    It's up to the devs to figure out what they want to do. But we basically can't have both. I myself, like what we have now.
    Btw, i wouldn't look at it as the mages forgot the spells, cause they come back if you change spec. It's more putting it away cause it's not necessary and is just bloat on your bars.
    Ok, so what about someone like my old demo lock? I loved Meta lock and i LOATHE the new demo lock. I absolutely hate the new design of it and hate that my toon MAGICALLY woke up one day and had forgotten meta to become headmaster at a school of imps

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by nRes View Post
    I mean following that train of logic, the most predatory loot box mechanics are also the most successful for example. They increase player engagement in the most insidious evil ways, but they increase it.

    Something being successful =/= something being good.
    You speaking of morally good? Who cares? Do you donate money to help children in africa?

  6. #126
    Blizzard didn't forget to add vendors back into the game, they simply refused to. They are committed to an outdated time synch business model and it's destroying the game. This is why off the charts RNG exists and why there is titan and war forging.

    As far as Class design goes, it's the worst it's ever been since Vanilla. Some specs aren't fun, others aren't viable and some just aren't in demand for one reason or another. These players who insist the class design issues are "subjective" are clueless. Do they play both Pvp and Pve? Do they play multiple classes even on a casual level? True, a handful of classes happen to be decent, they're not all bad, but generally speaking - yes the class design is utterly dreadful. If the classes as a whole happen to be in great place right now then why did Blizzard make a commitment to fix them.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    You speaking of morally good? Who cares? Do you donate money to help children in africa?
    No dawg. I mean a game can be trash and successful at the same time. And lately it feels like Blizzard are developing their games together with a team of psychologists to determine what's the most cost effective way to drip feed content and keep players engaged. Hence they came up with all kinds of weekly grinds to keep you hooked.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by durenas View Post
    A lot of what you say is a subjective opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.
    As Durenas stated, this is your and high-end raiders' subjective opinion. I do not raid, though I have played every class through the BfA content. Some classes and specs are better than others. That said, this statement "People will play bad content if the specs are fun to play, but when the specs aren't fun to play then no matter how good your content is people are just going to stop." alone makes zero sense.

    If the content is bad or good, which is also subjective on what the player finds enjoyable or not to play, it is not going to be made better or worse base on talent and specs. The content itself either sucks or it doesn't and nothing is going to change to make the content better or worse. If you only play the game or class based on talents and specs, then I believe you miss the entire purpose of playing the game itself.

  9. #129
    Why are these discussions always full of the most hyperbolic statements possible presented as objective fact?

    Plenty of specs are good and enjoyable in BfA. Some aren't so hot. This isn't a significant departure from other periods in the game. Broadly speaking, there's more balance and engagement in specs now than there was in the early days of the game.

    Ta-da. It's not a hot take or some huge argument, it's just a plain old boring, reasonable assessment.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxeley View Post
    Blizzard didn't forget to add vendors back into the game, they simply refused to. They are committed to an outdated time synch business model and it's destroying the game. This is why off the charts RNG exists and why there is titan and war forging.

    As far as Class design goes, it's the worst it's ever been since Vanilla. Some specs aren't fun, others aren't viable and some just aren't in demand for one reason or another. These players who insist the class design issues are "subjective" are clueless. Do they play both Pvp and Pve? Do they play multiple classes even on a casual level? True, a handful of classes happen to be decent, they're not all bad, but generally speaking - yes the class design is utterly dreadful. If the classes as a whole happen to be in great place right now then why did Blizzard make a commitment to fix them.
    Some people are getting way off topic and others are being plain disengenuous. Many of the class designs for BFA are objectively terrible, like armor only affecting physical damage and tanks having only active cooldowns to protect from magic, for instance. Or the fact that they talk about reducing stuns in pvp in every xpac but never touch rogues who are more and more op. I could go over specifics of each spec, have gone thru it all in detail since beta because i got all classes at max, but a few more general stuff that comes to mind:

    1) Blood dks doing only physical dmg is absurd. They were reduced to warriors with leech. In fact thats not exclusive to blood dks, the game has been watered down consistently and several abilities that should be magical now deal physical damage without it making sense, just to justify the change for armor which is itself absurd.

    2) Several specs (most notable example: vengeance dh) lost ao many abilities that they went from 6 buttons to press in legion to 3 in BFA. I like to mention DHs cus they always said they’d only give the class 2 specs to maintain variety and differentiation, and then gutted vengeance the second legion was over

    3) Abilities that are essential to several specs ate locked behind war mode as pvp talents, and in order for your class to feel even remotely right you are forced to enable it.

    4) Tank damage in general was brought down so much that they actually take MORE time to clear content solo and value versatility over their primary stat...never before have a secundary stat been more valuable than the primary!

    5) Melee dps feels like it doesnt belong in the game anymore. If you’re not a ret paladin, rogue or a havok dh, you have no place in pvp. You will get stunned and killed in seconds, ask any enh shaman, frost/unholy dk, survival hunter, fury warrior, anything that was made not to have great self heal. Dont ever spec a tank and try to pvp either, you will literally do 0 dmg and be blown up by a fire mage in 2 globals tops. Thats not to say all casters have it easy either, warlocks are insta trained as well.

  11. #131
    Bloodsail Admiral Art the Clown's Avatar
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    Since PvP started adding new abilites. Blizzard don't want people getting overwhelmed with too many buttons to press. So PvE gets lame playstyles with 3 or 4 button rotations.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Ok, so what about someone like my old demo lock? I loved Meta lock and i LOATHE the new demo lock. I absolutely hate the new design of it and hate that my toon MAGICALLY woke up one day and had forgotten meta to become headmaster at a school of imps
    MMO's are ever shifting games. You know things won't stay the same forever.

    Your character doesn't "forget" things. It is not alive. It gets redesigned.

  13. #133
    I can't stand BFA and I can't stand Classic. Had a lot more fun during Legion. Class design is down the tubes. Class balance is during the tubes. I can't even bring myself to login in about a month now.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Art the Clown View Post
    Since PvP started adding new abilites. Blizzard don't want people getting overwhelmed with too many buttons to press. So PvE gets lame playstyles with 3 or 4 button rotations.
    Yeah I mentioned that in my post, its also because they were shoving warmode down our throats. Wanna play a semi decent complete class? Enable warmode, otherwise feel like you’re level 20 with only half your abilities unlocked.

  15. #135
    Easy, they catered to noobs and casuals whining about "My Class doesn't have X", then they whine the classes are all becoming the same. Gotta satisfy the kids who are used to getting a medal for last place...

  16. #136
    Over 9000! OneWay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    I mean...it is no secret todays talents are less "rpg" than any other iteration of any other rpg on the market.

    Also no secret Blizzard constantly nerfs "player freedom" in customization...constantly...and as soon as someone steps out of the "box" Blizzard intended us to live in...NERF! Instant!

    BfA was no different.
    I saw snake eyes from rogue being nerfed to the ground.
    I saw revolving blades being nerfed to the ground
    I saw the fel rush azerite trait being REMOVED from the game.
    Pistol shot trait being nerfed by 60%.

    Player imagination, as soon as it gets wild...blizzard nerfs. Wow is a rpg no more in that sense.
    I don't understand what you mean. Todays talents are less RPG than any other before. WarCraft is not standard RPG game, that's for sure.

    What kind of customization do you want? If we talk about talents, this is how things are - Everyone who played with talents before MoP ones (or current ones) knows that there are cookie cutter builds and there are other builds. Every other build will get you no where and with cookie cutter builds you could have always experiment with few talents. That is what you have now, you experiment with few talents.

    Yes, Blizzard will always nerf down what is necessary to balance the game. I am not talking about 1v1 balance or similiar irrelevant bullshit. I am talking about balance both in PvE and 3v3 arenas and other most popular features of the game.

    One thing is to have imagination, another one is to be overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by durenas View Post
    It's just my opinion. I don't really speak out about it much, but I couldn't just let someone say 'oh it's all because of class development' without pointing out that there are other issues with BFA that had much more of an effect on its reception.
    Okay.
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  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by durenas View Post
    A lot of what you say is subjective opinion.
    Correct. Properly named this thread would be "I don't like class design in WoW" and it would be nice if they renamed threads like this to match the actual contents.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    I don't agree with that. Why would a FROST mage need to cast arcane blast and fireball? Don't confuse simplefying the game with pruning. Pruning was mostly harmless and that is the nostalgia speaking. When they went full reset lets simplify classes in Legion was when s**t hit the fan.
    I mean did you not play the game at any point between Vanilla-Wrath lol? There were plenty of situations where a Frost Mage would cast Fireball or Fire Blast or when Arcane Explosion was better AoE than Blizzard. It literally makes zero sense that you just "forget" how to cast all these spells when you play different spec. This is one of the reasons why Classic is so popular, you actually have a repertoire of spells that are useful in different situations, making the game more complex(rather than "oh there's aoe? Let me hit my 1 AoE spell.")
    Last edited by Zyky; 2019-10-02 at 04:12 PM.
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    Trust me.

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  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    But it's not. By far the #1 complaint people in this game have is spec/talent design. I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.
    Which are still opinions. It might be shared by some, others would disagree.
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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Yeah, you are right. DPS speccs are fine except feral, enhancement, Arms, arcane, elemental, havoc, fire (compared to legion), shadow, destruction, demonology, beast master, frost, unholy, subtlety, assasination and retribution. But yeah, the rest is fine! I guess.
    Fire is nice, shadow is ok, destro is ok, demonology is the best spec ever done, nothing holds a candle or is even remotely close to current demonlogy with a huge gap considering all 15 years, frost is ok, unh is ok, sub is gud, assa is boring as ever, retri is fine. Here, debunked.

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