How did blizzard manage to let class/talent design get so bad?

[melodramocracy]

By listening to the wrong players continually since Wrath.

[Beefkow]

The only fact is, your opinion is not a fact. Class design is purely subjective.

Its subjective and objective by the way you look at class design. If you base class design on feeling, it's subjective.

When looking at it objectively, you have to look at utility, mechanics, damage, resource spending, crowd control, aoe, cleave, execute, mobility, talent choices, pvp choices.

Based off of what I said, class design in BFA is not in a good spot, objectively.

[Broflake]

I would argue it is bad in general not necessarily because of performance, but simply due to the lack of versatility for most specs. Yes, you will have a cookie cutter spec that is good for raiding, but it feels as if the versatility available is lacking.
Furthermore, some specs are a bit clunky.

[kaminaris]

Its subjective and objective by the way you look at class design. If you base class design on feeling, it's subjective.

When looking at it objectively, you have to look at utility, mechanics, damage, resource spending, crowd control, aoe, cleave, execute, mobility, talent choices, pvp choices.

Based off of what I said, class design in BFA is not in a good spot, objectively.

Based off you have no experience in this field as it shows, bad class design was MoP - when everyone had everything. Then it was steadily refined.

Class design has nothing to do with number of buttons and numer of utilities classes have. It's the overall flow and gameplay.

[Th3Scourge]

That'd be nice. But that might be fun and give people actual freedom and RPG elements in this RPG game and someone might complain about it! Can't have that!

Yeah you're right, imagine having a baseline toolkit of a class and further enhancing some of those baseline abilities through specialisation and extended training in a specific school of magic. Better not include some of these great RPG elements back into the game!

[Beefkow]

Based off you have no experience in this field as it shows, bad class design was MoP - when everyone had everything. Then it was steadily refined.

Class design has nothing to do with number of buttons and numer of utilities classes have. It's the overall flow and gameplay.

I never said anything about MOP or previous expansions before legion, or mention that the more buttons we have, the better.

Nor do I even care about previous expansions, what's past is past, move on.

[kaminaris]

I never said anything about MOP or previous expansions before legion, or mention that the more buttons we have, the better.

Nor do I even care about previous expansions, what's past is past, move on.

Then it's exactly 100% subjective.

[Beefkow]

Then it's exactly 100% subjective.

What are you talking about.

Class design IS bad in BFA, you can choose to like it or disagree with the fact, up to you. Even the class devs stated that some of the classes are fundamentally broken or unplayable. You called that subjective?

Here's an analogy: Smoking is bad for you, look at the facts, look at what it does to your body. It's objectively bad no matter how you spin it. Some smoke addicts will disagree it's good for you, but they don't know or don't care to acknowledge the reality of it. That's subjective.

[kaminaris]

What are you talking about.

Class design IS bad in BFA, you can choose to like it or disagree with the fact, up to you. Even the class devs stated that some of the classes are fundamentally broken or unplayable. You called that subjective?

Here's an analogy: Smoking is bad for you, look at the facts, look at what it does to your body. It's objectively bad no matter how you spin it. Some smoke addicts will disagree it's good for you, but they don't know or don't care to acknowledge the reality of it. That's subjective.

Class design is good in BfA, you can choose to like it or disagree with the fact, up to you. Devs are quite proud with their decisions as they recently told us so.

- - - Updated - - -

Last time I checked videogames were supposed to be "fun".

MoP was fun.

Is Class Design being absolute dogshit "purely subjective" when lead designer Ion Hazzicuntstis himself admits that they have failed?

Who should we believe? A fanboy on a pathetic dwindling fan forum or the lead designer of the game itself?

MoP was absolute dogshit, no wonder devs completely redesigned specs in WoD, they couldn't stand that homogenization. BfA is fun.

[Heladys]

They're smart people who trust in their own vision and truly believed in what they were doing. They didn't listen nearly enough to outside feedback, and even when they did, they painted themselves into inescapable corners with the timing and limited beta testing which didn't allow them to address even the feedback they did agree with at first. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The game is still fun but it's been better and could be again.

[majesta]

Let me tell you how.

It's called Legion. They said... "shucks we are making new animations, lets just redo all of the classes while we are at it and make them "simpler" so more players play our game! We are Blizzard, they will eat that stuff up! Let's add these artifact things, they will make things spicy and they won't know what hit them! Let's also make talent trees all screwy and not bother to fix until the next xpac!".

In BfA they went: "shucks this is too much for the kids. We are not seeing growth despite having simplified things. Obviously we need to double down! These artifact skills were just an expansion wide system so let's scrap that part, but let's keep the artifact grind! Let's get rid of Set bonuses too and make these sets that people can choose their bonuses, except the best ones will the random box rolls! As for the talent trees lets give them 3 choices that do the same in almost every row! That will make for varied choice and customization!" followed by "whoops, they look unhappy! I know! They liked that optional cosmetic thing about the previous artifact weapons, why don't we bring that back and instead make them mandatory power increases? Great idea!"

The life of a Blizzard dev.

Honestly, it only looks possible, imo, because they truly don't play the game. I mean, not more than playing a short burst. They don't play the game daily. They don't do the grind. They don't experience what players have to go through to be competitive.
Also they are astronomically arrogant and fail to recognize that they are wrong until massive damage has been done. They often ignore most feedback during beta's too.
I mean the fact that they insisted on the AP grind and titanforging despite the outcry says everything. They see a metric, they don't see people. But people's patience has limits.

^This

Seriously, Swnem knows what is up and going on. Blizzard for a while has been looking only at metrics. The biggest one they seem to care about now is playtime metric because it is something they can show shareholders and say see, we are successful. That is why I strongly think a lot of game decisions are gated the way they are (also to maximize subscription time too). Every time they change something that adds 5 second here, 10 seconds there and is done multiple times per week per player, multiplied out by a few million players you suddenly created a massive spike in playtime metrics.

It's all garbage though. But those shareholders who I doubt even know what the Alliance and Horde are think playtime metrics are the bee's knees.

[Beefkow]

Class design is good in BfA

Explain.

Seriously, explain how the class design is good in BFA.

Half of the classes in BFA (and legion) lost their abilities, their tools, their little niches.

They lost tier sets, lost legiondaries, lost artifact weapon traits, lost talent choices.

Class design is utter garbage, plain, simplified, and pruned, and you call that good?

Voidform is still a thing, it's a garbage concept and just doesn't work, period. BFA only made it worse. I can go on.

Devs are quite proud with their decisions as they recently told us so.

What are you smoking?

[kaminaris]

Explain.

Seriously, explain how the class design is good in BFA.

Half of the classes in BFA lost their abilities, their tools, their little niches.

They lost tier sets, lost legiondaries, lost artifact weapon traits, lost talent choices.

Class design is utter garbage, plain, simplified, and pruned, and you call that good?

Voidform is still a thing, it's a garbage concept and just doesn't work, period. BFA only made it worse.

No you explain.

Class design is distinctive, have proper toolkit, good flow, competitive talents.

No spell bloat, easy to hop into, hard to master.

We have 36 mini classes so there is a big chance anyone could find something they like.

Class design WAS utter garbage, few expansions before. Now it is good.

[Beefkow]

No you explain.

Class design is distinctive, have proper toolkit, good flow, competitive talents.

No spell bloat, easy to hop into, hard to master.

We have 36 mini classes so there is a big chance anyone could find something they like.

Class design WAS utter garbage, few expansions before. Now it is good.

Jesus, you act like a kid with echolalia.

Just stop.

I mean, I knew you were bad. I knew that you were just a shill fanboy. But completely ignoring the truth and just spouting utter bullshit?

Okay.


https://www.mmorpg.com/world-of-warc...far-1000052872

"This is a top priority for us. Your criticism has been appropriate and it is a powerful guide for us." Hazzikostas wraps up.


This is the game director admitting his failure. This is your god, admitting class design sucks.


L M F A O

He believes that facts are based off of feeling, I don't get it.

[kaminaris]

Jesus, you act like a kid with echolalia.

Just stop.

So you have no arguments like i thought so. Listen, I played since mop with 34+2 specs before, did all mage towers during legion. Had all classes and all specs at at least viable level.

Most of whines like this, have no clue about overall class design. No expansion before was so close to having distinctive classes and managed to maintain some balance.
Your opinion literally means nothing as you are not sole arbiter of what is fun and what is not.

People like you can't begin to imagine something you don't like, can be liked by others. That's sums it up.

[Beefkow]

So you have no arguments like i thought so. Listen, I played since mop with 34+2 specs before, did all mage towers during legion. Had all classes and all specs at at least viable level.

Most of whines like this, have no clue about overall class design. No expansion before was so close to having distinctive classes and managed to maintain some balance.
Your opinion literally means nothing as you are not sole arbiter of what is fun and what is not.

People like you can't begin to imagine something you don't like, can be liked by others. That's sums it up.

You're joking right?

Again with MOP.

I don't give 2 shits about previous expansions before legion/BFA, move on already.

It's not my opinion, I never even once stated how I felt about class design in legion/bfa or in the past.

I'm only stating the facts. You're either arrogant as hell or are ignorant about what goes on behind the scenes of each classes. The representations of each class/spec in M+, raiding, pvp, everything.

I've bet you haven't been on the beta testing forums in WOD/legion/BFA. You obviously never given feedback or haven't participated in discord discussions or even looked at the forums.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

pathetic dwindling fan forum

Why are you even here then? You obviously hate this place.

[Beefkow]

Why are you even here then? You obviously hate this place.

We could say the same about you.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

We could say the same about you.

What? I'm not insulting the website and the people on it.

- - - Updated - - -

Please stop derailing the thread. Post on topic or don't post at all thanks.

This is so ironic it's killing me.

[kaminaris]

You're joking right?

Again with MOP.

I don't give 2 shits about previous expansions before legion/BFA, move on already.

It's not my opinion, I never even once stated how I felt about class design in legion/bfa or in the past.

I'm only stating the facts. You're either arrogant as hell or are ignorant about what goes on behind the scenes of each classes. The representations of each class/spec in M+, raiding, pvp, everything.

I've bet you haven't been on the beta testing forums in WOD/legion/BFA. You obviously never given feedback or haven't participated in discord discussions or even looked at the forums.

You are joking, that is for sure. You cannot say something is bad or good without having any kind of reference.

You are not stating any facts, you are trying to arrogantly state your pretty weak opinion as fact. Which is nowhere near any "fact".

Representation of each class/spec in various activities have nothing to do with class design. This is class balance.

And to give you some insight, I got beta from addon developer channel, been writing rotations for my addons, breaking down all classes piece by piece. I know about classes way more than you.