How did blizzard manage to let class/talent design get so bad?

[sunxsera]

I feel weird playing most classes and i don't know why. I mean i think i do, it's cause i miss more elements to specs like not being specific so much, but still feels weird and not just that. I think GCD's too made me feel too weird, and the loss of some abilities that i had in legion + azerites annoys the heck out of me. I barely can keep getting gear for my main spec, need to get azerites and do triple m+ to buy azerites from vendors for my tank, etc. This whole expansion feels weird on my characters gameplay.

Yes - also the essences stopped me from playing my alts. I dont want to grind / farm content for the 3rd or 8th time. ( Having 8 lvl 120 )
You hit level 120, after 1 day you are ilvl 400 and then you can `t even get your raid / mecha essence. No one would invite you with that ilvl / lowneck & essences.
My guild does weekly hc clears for alts & also carrys weekly keys, but we also want to be effective, which means we can`t invite everyone ´s low ilvl alt.

Farm benthic, pearls, essences, azerite power, azerite random pieces, do wwar campaign etc. ... it `s just anoying. It takes weeks to have a decent geared alt.
My holy paladin alt bought 3x 445 azerite pieces - 3x without glimmer of light trait - which means i can just scrap them or use for ret ( which i`d never play in m+ / raids )
Saving 200k titan residuum is also stupid, i dont want to wait ~7-8 weeks to buy a specific item on an alt.
Didnt get a specific trait your spec needs? Well, good luck in 2 weeks!

All this effort to make your char feel powerful / enjoyable is insane.

[Relapses]

You're not a pro, so forgive me if I don't pay attention to your opinion on anything. Vanilla wasn't The Rapture. Nowhere have I said as much. Have you ever heard the adage 'don't fix what isn't broken?' Vanilla had good design. It needed bug fixing, it had a content slate, and they had a good direction to go in. If they had done it right, it would have been more like D3 in terms of the content and how it's played, how players progress through it. While Diablo 3 wasn't the best designed game either, the way it's designed does a much better job of giving the content longevity (as it should, there is very little content to D3, compared to a titan MMO like wow), which is why people still play it.

No idea how popular it is by the numbers, but if a game that doesn't have a sub fee or a box expansion releasing on a cycle can get updates and retain a static player base, that is every bit as valid as a design model as anything else. Arguably better, in fact. Since the cost to a consumer is virtually one time and rather low, for a AAA quality game. I quit Wow because after playing pretty steady for 12 years, I added up all the money I had spent to play this one game... could have bought a decent used car. Or stuck it in savings. Taken a class or two. Gone on vacation. Sure, 12 years of unlimited game play on demand with regular patches and updates is a pretty unparalleled entertainment experience for that price, but its still a lot of money to spend on one game. Most other games will never come close in terms of cost to play, even if one spends the same amount of time playing (I've spent more than 1000 hours on some single player games).

...I agree with you. Vanilla was great game design. TBC, also, was great design. WotLK, great fucking game design. Cata, too, was a bastion of great game design. MoP will forever be remembered for it's great game design. And WoD, while constantly lamented by the community also had some incredible game design. Legion, learning from the past, also had great game design. And finally, after decades of working hard, we've arrived at BfA, the pinnacle of modern MMO game design.

I know you'll disagree with me here but I just wanted to illustrate how silly it is to infer your opinion of what constitutes great game design means anything in this conversation.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean, that isn't how the game works AT ALL. If you aren't taking the optimal talents(which are almost all the same for every fight) then you aren't being efficient. But at this point you're just trying to justify that you're wrong by naming a ton of worthless talents that aren't taking in any situation.

I literally just pointed you to a talent that show you that it’s exactly how the game works. Sticking your fingers in your ears is not a refutation and is not how class design works.

[Zyky]

I literally just pointed you to a talent that show you that it’s exactly how the game works. Sticking your fingers in your ears is not a refutation and is not how class design works.

You're literally naming talents that have zero place in any form of play, they're all bad in raids, they're almost all bad in M+, and they're almost all trash in PvP. The reality is the passives are just better and that means POOR CLASS DESIGN. You have done nothing to rebuke my statement and you've only made yourself look like a fool saying "lol but explosive shot".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You're literally naming talents that have zero place in any form of play, they're all bad in raids, they're almost all bad in M+, and they're almost all trash in PvP. The reality is the passives are just better and that means POOR CLASS DESIGN. You have done nothing to rebuke my statement and you've only made yourself look like a fool saying "lol but explosive shot".

Ya I’m just gonna quote icy veins a few times.

All talents in this tier are within 1-3% of each other for pure single-target.

Serpent Sting Icon Serpent Sting is a respectable single-target damage option (and not bad when multidotting a few targets either), but we prefer Master Marksman Icon Master Marksman for its ease of use, and therefore we generally do not recommend using Serpent Sting.

Explosive Shot Icon Explosive Shot is useful for Mythic+ scenarios where everything dies so quickly that you do not get to benefit from Careful Aim Icon Careful Aim. This is particularly the case in lower Mythic+ keys, and arguably more so during Tyrannical weeks.

Hunter's Mark Icon Hunter's Mark should be your default choice for most situations, even in Mythic+ where you can pick a suitable target beforehand, and targets are going to die throughout the pull. Streamline Icon Streamline has an edge in Fortified situations where trash is much more important.

And for PvP murder is an option.

A Murder of Crows Icon A Murder of Crows is the best choice in this tier. This ability is a very strong offensive cooldown that should be used when trying to secure a kill

Would you like to try again?

[Aphrel]

Can confirm, frost mage are very reactionary and can account for many situations. But imo I think GS needs a nerf... and i play mage...

what it needs is a rework so it doesnt benefit from fingers of frost. Because either having to save the proc for gs or to keep frostbolting to fish for proc both feels horrible.

[Evaddon]

Its not, people mostly complain about little things being removed that hardly got use by the average player. Most complaints, aren't even negotiable feedback from the majority of Warcrafts player base because of this, and rather what content they tackle or what they pursue in game. Most feedback is bounced between the the casual and the "elite", which they;the casual, regurgitate upon information and experiences they do not themselves have nor witnessed.

The only thing true, to me anyway, is to much external power (Trinkets,Azerite,HoA,Enchants,Potions,Gear Effects,Weapon Effects), GCD, and lack of customization , and how specs generally feel like separate classes rather then advance teachings into a specific tree. From a base of class design, they're rather fine its other things that dampen the Class/Specialization idea for the most part and this began to facilitate in Legion

[Buliwyf the Omen]

I mean, blizzard has let the game get worse and worse since Wotlk.
If you're looking for a fresh start on something that is fun, try classic.

Get outta here. Not everyone wants to play a outdated 15 year old crappier version of BfA.

[analmoose]

I dont find specs or class fel bad at all, however the dungeons are so terrible that i wont play, as one of my main enjoyments in game is m+

[Nuggsy]

A lot of what you say is subjective opinion.

Many people like to spout objective opinion as fact. There are more than a few people who'd like to see this game as nothing more than a frantic confusing button mash shitshow. For whatever reason, some people think 50 buttons cluttering up their screen is fun. Are they wrong? Eh, no.. if that's how they want to play then by all means. I personally don't require all that. I wouldn't mind a couple more talent rows and some revamped current talents but that's about it.

[Beefkow]

It is pretty clear you don't know what subjective and objective mean.

If you continued to read more instead of just stopping yourself, I later admit that class design is purely subjective.

Yea, i've been talking out of my ass this whole time.

I'm done with life you know? Always being wrong. You guys are right, classes are fun are functional, I was wrong. Azerite traits are fun and interactive and the best thing that's ever been implemented.

How cool is that?

I guess everything I knew about wow was wrong. Everything about class design is subjective, everything is the same. I guess i'm delusional after all.

I just can't understand how people love that their character has half of their stuff removed, doesn't bother them at all.

I wouldn't mind if they removed crap from my character, but i'm still paying $15 a month for them to remove more stuff. I would've expected $10 a month at this point.

Imagine going to a burger king and getting your favorite burger or going to your favorite pizza place. All of a sudden they remove 1 topping and you still have to pay the full price.

That's BFA.

[rohoz]

If you continued to read more instead of just stopping yourself, I later admit that class design is purely subjective.


I just can't understand how people love that their character has half of their stuff removed, doesn't bother them at all.

I wouldn't mind if they removed crap from my character, but i'm still paying $15 a month for them to remove more stuff. I would've expected $10 a month at this point.

Imagine going to a burger king and getting your favorite burger. All of a sudden they remove 1 topping and you still have to pay the full price.

That's BFA.

you're mad dramatic and still wrong, holy shit

[Nefarious Tea]

I mean, blizzard has let the game get worse and worse since Wotlk.
If you're looking for a fresh start on something that is fun, try classic.

"fresh start"

"fun"

"Classic"

I was there, man. There is nothing fun about killing bosses I killed in vanilla again. There is nothing fun about farming for six hours for every hour of raiding.

Classic was a fuckin grind, and unless you were a select few class/spec combos that were either not garbage in a raid, or broken OP in pvp (mace rogue, 2H enhance), you basically got shafted for two and a half years. No, thank you.

[Kithelle]

I mean, blizzard has let the game get worse and worse since Wotlk.
If you're looking for a fresh start on something that is fun, try classic.

With the jokes again! A fresh start with a class system that is even more broke than retail? You're hilarious! Nothing says fun like all content being a complete joke!

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Imagine going to a burger king and getting your favorite burger or going to your favorite pizza place. All of a sudden they remove 1 topping and you still have to pay the full price.

That's BFA.

it's not quite like that. it would be like say paying for an art program, at first you go and there are 5 different brushes and abunch of references. you go back a few years later and now there are only 4 brushes but even more references. the price stays the same because they are still giving you just as many if not more things to base your art on but your favorite brush might not be there any more and you might not like marking art without as many tools as you had in the past.

[Kithelle]

"fresh start"

"fun"

"Classic"

I was there, man. There is nothing fun about killing bosses I killed in vanilla again. There is nothing fun about farming for six hours for every hour of raiding.

Classic was a fuckin grind, and unless you were a select few class/spec combos that were either not garbage in a raid, or broken OP in pvp (mace rogue, 2H enhance), you basically got shafted for two and a half years. No, thank you.

They're deranged, yet they make up a term for us. That is the modern world for you people with the problems always pointing fingers at someone else. They can't be happy with Classic, they have to go on and on to try and "prove" it's superior to retail instead of enjoying it and just leave well enough alone.

[Super Black Man of Steal]

I honestly don't get why people have a problem with classes and talents in BFA, but I don't raid beyond LFR.

[Beefkow]

it's not quite like that. it would be like say paying for an art program, at first you go and there are 5 different brushes and abunch of references. you go back a few years later and now there are only 4 brushes but even more references. the price stays the same because they are still giving you just as many if not more things to base your art on but your favorite brush might not be there any more and you might not like marking art without as many tools as you had in the past.

I'm assuming by references you mean content.

Content doesn't matter to me at all.

Warlords of Draneor is a big example. The main reason subs dropped nearly 50% was because of lack of content, or the general theme of it. It was trash, the selfie cam patch definitely left a mark, afk garrison was just horrible. However, classes were fun to play, multistrike was a fun stat, my character was just fun.

I value my brushes more than the references, if they take all of my brushes away, what do i have?

[rohoz]

I honestly don't get why people have a problem with classes and talents in BFA, but I don't raid beyond LFR.

literally only mouthbreathers that don't play talk about the talents/classes

Case in point, beefkow

[Balbuto]

But it's not. By far the #1 complaint people in this game have is spec/talent design. I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.

I'm content with Holy Priest now that we have Essences