Personal Loot Feedback - Three Raids Later

[azka]

They need to give us back ML, at least for guild runs.

[CrawlFromThePit]

And you fail to provide ANY data contrary. Empirical Data > Rationalization.

Sorry 'bout it@

My data is Blizzard's data. The data you claim helps your point, actually helps mine, not yours. So so stick to what you're saying you need to have double standard.

[lummiuster]

PL is a good thing. All it does is make people a bit less powerful and we have less people with BIS. What's the problem with that? It's stupid to see people with BIS after 2-3 weeks of a new raid. Beside it is more fair for all the raiders.

[Mardux]

What does that mean that "currently it's way too random"?

Raids always dropped gear randomly, regardless of what loot distribution system you used. This has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

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What kind of argument even is this? You REFUSE to use a certain type of weapon and somehow that's Blizzard's fault? Wowzerz.

They said they had a staff and a 1h sword that dropped can’t be traded because it’s a sword, even though the sword is a lower ilvl than their equipped weapon. And you can’t understand that? “Wowzers” is right...

I’ll break it down with examples in the hopes that you might understand.

You’re using a 440 staff with good stats.
A 430 sword with bad stats drops for you.
The highest ilvl sword you’ve had before is 420.
Someone else in the raid is still using a 415 sword.
Blizzard doesn’t want you to trade the 420 sword.
You make it appear that you agree with blizzard.
The 420 sword gets vendored. People feel bad, except you and blizzard.

[MoanaLisa]

PL being restrictive is the reason why it works: no one can force you trade or shame you for not trading if game does not allow it.
Loosening the rules up will break it.

I understand that. However, in a pug no one is going to care.

In a guild: if guild/raid management starts shaming you to get you to give up something that's dropped that's not a terrible reason to leave. Really solid guilds should understand why you might want to hang on to something or alternately you would not mind because it's a contribution to the raid team.

I don't really have an issue with ML for purely guild groups. If there's a lot of shaming going on in the guild though, I'm gone.

[Aliven]

Anyone who says they don't care about loot is full of shit and you don't have to be a pro to like master loot.

Yep, nice we can find something to agree on

[Garymorilix]

They said they had a staff and a 1h sword that dropped can’t be traded because it’s a sword, even though the sword is a lower ilvl than their equipped weapon. And you can’t understand that? “Wowzers” is right...

I’ll break it down with examples in the hopes that you might understand.

You’re using a 440 staff with good stats.
A 430 sword with bad stats drops for you.
The highest ilvl sword you’ve had before is 420.
Someone else in the raid is still using a 415 sword.
Blizzard doesn’t want you to trade the 420 sword.
You make it appear that you agree with blizzard.
The 420 sword gets vendored. People feel bad, except you and blizzard.

"If I play a Mage, and I only use staves. Like, no matter what, I only want to use staves."

This is what they actually said. Be smart somewhere else.

And even if you have a 440 staff and a 430 sword drops, it doesn't mean it can't be an upgrade if you get a 445 off-hand next to it. Maybe think ahead, instead of being short sighted?

[Huzzaa]

"If I play a Mage, and I only use staves. Like, no matter what, I only want to use staves."

This is what they actually said. Be smart somewhere else.

And even if you have a 440 staff and a 430 sword drops, it doesn't mean it can't be an upgrade if you get a 445 off-hand next to it. Maybe think ahead, instead of being short sighted?

That what-if argument doesn't compute.

The context is: Staff is BiS, no combo of main-hand off-hand is assumed to be an upgrade. (EDIT: Not only assumed, also simmed, it just isn't)

He gets a main-hand he can't trade that he's going to vendor 100% regardless.

What is your problem?

Oh right, the I got to be right no matter what problem.

[Garymorilix]

That what-if argument doesn't compute.

The context is: Staff is BiS, no combo of main-hand off-hand is assumed to be an upgrade. (EDIT: Not only assumed, also simmed, it just isn't)

He gets a main-hand he can't trade that he's going to vendor 100% regardless.

What is your problem?

Oh right, the I got to be right no matter what problem.

You don't speak english? Read the highlighted part, it literally means "i dont want to use a 1-h instead of staff".

There is no what if.

And there is no BiS staff. Unless you got a 455 socketed one from Azshara I dont fckin care what u have, its not BiS. There can always be a better 1h and offhand combo.
Show me the sim where it shows that that guy has such a high value staff it cant be upgraded. Show me, dont assume your bs.

[Fayenoor]

You don't speak english? Read the highlighted part, it literally means "i dont want to use a 1-h instead of staff".

There is no what if.

And there is no BiS staff. Unless you got a 455 socketed one from Azshara I dont fckin care what u have, its not BiS. There can always be a better 1h and offhand combo.
Show me the sim where it shows that that guy has such a high value staff it cant be upgraded. Show me, dont assume your bs.

Yes. If you are looking from the raider POV, a MH/OH combo can be better than Staff of higher ilevel.

Now, bear with me and look at it from a raid POV. Most raid bosses (specially the critical DPS check ones like Ashvane and Oro) require an overall raid DPS to make certain key DPS checks. For those situations, it is always better for a raid to spread the loot around so that the entire raid team gears up evenly. The same raider getting a minor DPS upgrade over another raider getting a significantly larger DPS upgrade will help the raid more.

Suppose an item is worth like 200 DPS upgrade for a player and 1000 DPS upgrade for another player and your raid needs around 600 DPS more to overcome a DPS check. So wouldnt it better to loot the item to the second person than the first?

With PL, if the first person got that minor upgrade, they wont be able to trade it up. The system doesnt allow it so. With ML, the master looter can make the judgment call and loot the item to the raider which would benefit the raid the most.

I understand your thinking and your complaint. You are looking at it from the individual's POV. You got an upgrade (even a minor) and you deserve it (you wiped as much or more than the second guy). So you have every right to want to keep it.

But when you start leading raid and look at the loot system from a raid leader POV, you have to start thinking about what benefits the raid most. BTW, this is also sorta how guilds chose raiders to allocate legendaries back in the day. E.g. your best healer got the first Valnyr. etc.

I agree that corrupt leaders abuse the system. But trust me when I say that those guilds die fast and those leaders & guilds dont last long. Yes, they will ninja some loot for themselves, friends or SO; but raiders are smart and will catch up and leave. Such guilds die or dont make any significant progress to make an impact.

But in general guilds who like to progress have leaders who want to progress and would do best for the guild. And screwing them over while trying to play cop over the few asshats who leads bad guilds seems rather harsh.

[Garymorilix]

Yes. If you are looking from the raider POV, a MH/OH combo can be better than Staff of higher ilevel.

Now, bear with me and look at it from a raid POV. Most raid bosses (specially the critical DPS check ones like Ashvane and Oro) require an overall raid DPS to make certain key DPS checks. For those situations, it is always better for a raid to spread the loot around so that the entire raid team gears up evenly. The same raider getting a minor DPS upgrade over another raider getting a significantly larger DPS upgrade will help the raid more.

Suppose an item is worth like 200 DPS upgrade for a player and 1000 DPS upgrade for another player and your raid needs around 600 DPS more to overcome a DPS check. So wouldnt it better to loot the item to the second person than the first?

With PL, if the first person got that minor upgrade, they wont be able to trade it up. The system doesnt allow it so. With ML, the master looter can make the judgment call and loot the item to the raider which would benefit the raid the most.

I understand your thinking and your complaint. You are looking at it from the individual's POV. You got an upgrade (even a minor) and you deserve it (you wiped as much or more than the second guy). So you have every right to want to keep it.

But when you start leading raid and look at the loot system from a raid leader POV, you have to start thinking about what benefits the raid most. BTW, this is also sorta how guilds chose raiders to allocate legendaries back in the day. E.g. your best healer got the first Valnyr. etc.

I agree that corrupt leaders abuse the system. But trust me when I say that those guilds die fast and those leaders & guilds dont last long. Yes, they will ninja some loot for themselves, friends or SO; but raiders are smart and will catch up and leave. Such guilds die or dont make any significant progress to make an impact.

But in general guilds who like to progress have leaders who want to progress and would do best for the guild. And screwing them over while trying to play cop over the few asshats who leads bad guilds seems rather harsh.

The situation where there is THAT much upgrade difference between two people should never ever actually happen IF we are talking about seriously raiding people.

It's like saying "oh mah gawd AShvane is such a dps check" and then John who is 440+ and Timmy who is 420 are in the same group. Maybe run some M+ and HC before bringing Timmy into shit where he would get 500% more upgrade from an item than you?

It sounds nice, but when you actually think about it this situation is bullshit. Either Ashvane is on farm, or it isn't and nobody should cry about this level of an upgrade.

Individual progression is also progression for the guild because:
a) it boosts overall dps
b) he can trade it the next time anyways.

Time is finite. The duration of any given content is finite. If you end up in a guild that seriously damages your personal progression for whatever fckin reason you have already lost precious time out of that tier, as you can only do bosses once a week.
That means, if a guild scams you then you leave, you STILL LOST a week worth of progression just because the Gm's GF wanted that cute staff.

So what you do is what Blizzard did: not enable bad behaviour. You simply can't enable it.
Maybe it hurts the 1% that actually used it right, those holy people who shalt not be questioned.
But you don't enable the rest.

[Huzzaa]

You don't speak english? Read the highlighted part, it literally means "i dont want to use a 1-h instead of staff".

There is no what if.

And there is no BiS staff. Unless you got a 455 socketed one from Azshara I dont fckin care what u have, its not BiS. There can always be a better 1h and offhand combo.
Show me the sim where it shows that that guy has such a high value staff it cant be upgraded. Show me, dont assume your bs.

You really don't get it do you.


You were pointed a real life situation that occurs, has occured to the OP who brought it up a few pages back and it has also happened in my guild.

It's a real problem. You're just attempting to spin it to the words "I want to use this" when in most likelyhood, what was really meant was that: that's my BiS and already settled but now I got this weapon of type I don't really need and I cannot trade because of this PL system in place.

Your point on showing you the sim carries no weight unless we want to start getting into the detail of which class and which spec were talking about here. But that's not the point now is it. We're talking about the big picture.

You're somehow stuck in this single player mindset/attitude, of me and only me only.


"The situation where there is THAT much upgrade difference between two people should never ever actually happen IF we are talking about seriously raiding people." - happens and will continue happening unless you plan on doing splits like Method to fill every slot with a certain minimum ilvl piece so that you can always trade. You're not convincing anyone here.

[Garymorilix]

You really don't get it do you.


You were pointed a real life situation that occurs, has occured to the OP who brought it up a few pages back and it has also happened in my guild.

It's a real problem. You're just attempting to spin it to the words "I want to use this" when in most likelyhood, what was really meant was that: that's my BiS and already settled but now I got this weapon of type I don't really need and I cannot trade because of this PL system in place.

Your point on showing you the sim carries no weight unless we want to start getting into the detail of which class and which spec were talking about here. But that's not the point now is it. We're talking about the big picture.

You're somehow stuck in this single player mindset/attitude, of me and only me only.


"The situation where there is THAT much upgrade difference between two people should never ever actually happen IF we are talking about seriously raiding people." - happens and will continue happening unless you plan on doing splits like Method to fill every slot with a certain minimum ilvl piece so that you can always trade. You're not convincing anyone here.

Why don't you ask the poster who I replied to in the first then instead of making your bullshit assumptions about it?

You know what he wrote, don't try to second grade literature teacher assume the shit out of it, this ain't a thousand year old poem.

BiS doesn't exist, also, I already told you that. Again, you can try to argue that but unless you got 455 with a socket it doesnt hold any water. That's the big picture. Not your petty loot guild squabbles.

And no, it simply doesn't happen. I geared a shaman in one and a half week from literal leveling heirlooms to 430 doing everything alone, only ONE 5/8 hc raid run and M+.
If you as an organized guild can't gear someone to that point in like 2 days after dinging then you simply don't care, thats the truth. Either that player is horseshit and wants a free ride, or you just dont care.

If you put actual effort in what you do, it's very easy. If you don't, you end up on MMO-C whining how ONE loot out of hundreds was a 11% upgrade to poor Timmy, but it was only 10% to me but fuck blizz cuz I cant trade it even tho he can get the same shit out of M+ any day.

[Huzzaa]

You still don't get it.

Whatever.

I thought by using the word BiS, we all understand that we're really looking at our base item here that we're targeting and not the 100th millionth possible variation of an RNGforge of it. But for some reason you want to nitpick here.

And no I don't support this casino loot system.

I also returned to the game after a small break around January and geared up to a level you're portraying here quite fast, then pre-BoD.
Yet the case still stands.

What you claim not to occur does occur.

[mojusk]

it should never have been a forced thing.

[Will]

For pugs? Personal is fine. A good thing.

For guild runs? I think the old loot options should become selectable if the run is majority a guild run, ie: 60 or 80% of the people in the raid are also in the same guild.

[PrairieChicken]

I see where you're going but "voting with your wallet" over something like this isn't really effective. In fact, unsubbing because of a design change, in general, provides the devs with very little actionable data. A better idea is to do what we're doing here: Providing reasonable feedback about the pros and cons without skewing too far into the territory of personal attacks.

Feedbacks only work when ... devs are willing to listen to them. From my experience Blizzard leans towards "I don't care" camp, I have seen many other game companies that actually incorporates feedbacks.

For the Blizzard, feedbacks usually end up in the lines of:
1. Ones in the forum are vocal minority, the "silent majority" thinks otherwise!
2. You think you do, but you don't
3. Nowadays, people are so rude/mean/unconstructive/uses personal offense - where are all the manners and decorum?

So voting with your wallet is the best way to go, because finding a better game that suits your style is superior to praying that the game will change to fit your style.

[Eosia]

My data is Blizzard's data. The data you claim helps your point, actually helps mine, not yours. So so stick to what you're saying you need to have double standard.

So then you have a link to where they released this data?

[Raelbo]

Yes. If you are looking from the raider POV, a MH/OH combo can be better than Staff of higher ilevel.

Now, bear with me and look at it from a raid POV. Most raid bosses (specially the critical DPS check ones like Ashvane and Oro) require an overall raid DPS to make certain key DPS checks. For those situations, it is always better for a raid to spread the loot around so that the entire raid team gears up evenly. The same raider getting a minor DPS upgrade over another raider getting a significantly larger DPS upgrade will help the raid more.

Suppose an item is worth like 200 DPS upgrade for a player and 1000 DPS upgrade for another player and your raid needs around 600 DPS more to overcome a DPS check. So wouldnt it better to loot the item to the second person than the first?

With PL, if the first person got that minor upgrade, they wont be able to trade it up. The system doesnt allow it so. With ML, the master looter can make the judgment call and loot the item to the raider which would benefit the raid the most.

This doesn't make ML a better system. It makes it the preferred, therefore mandatory, choice when a competitive guild is faced with the choice of the two.

It seems to me that you're arguing that now, because your raid is making less optimal use of the gear that drops, your raid is going to suffer in terms of raid progress. But that is a logical fallacy. Why? Because the way your raid progress benefits from gearing up isn't determined by Blizzard's choice of imposing PL on you. There are a multitude of variables with which Blizzard can tinker to control how fast guilds progress. Therefore your rate of progress is based on what Blizzard wants it to be, regardless of the loot system in place.

The only real difference here is that, in the past, guilds choosing to using ML were at an advantage over guilds opting to use PL. Why you'd think that is unfair I can't really say.

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Feedbacks only work when ... devs are willing to listen to them. From my experience Blizzard leans towards "I don't care" camp, I have seen many other game companies that actually incorporates feedbacks.

Of course Blizzard listens to feedback. To try and argue otherwise is IMO disingenuous.

The fact that they don't act on some feedback is irrelevant. The simple fact is that they cannot act on all feedback. Nor should they. Like it or not, a lot of feedback just isn't that valuable, or actionable. A lot of feedback is contradictory of other feedback.

Most people believe to their core that their opinion is somehow superior to everyone else's. It isn't. Also, Blizzard have their own biases in terms of what feedback they're likely to agree with and not.

So voting with your wallet is the best way to go, because finding a better game that suits your style is superior to praying that the game will change to fit your style.

Well, if you're not enjoying the game, sure, it makes sense to move on to something you're more likely to enjoy. But voting with your wallet on petty things (which IMO this whole ML debate absolutely is) is pretty silly. At the end of the day you're basically just cutting off your nose to spite your face. Save your wrath for an issue which actually matters.

[CrawlFromThePit]

So then you have a link to where they released this data?

Why? You already claim to have seen this data. Is there a problem in your argument, sir? Is this more double standard from someone trying to prove me wrong just for the sake of fighting on the interwebz?

We both know if they have data it's not public. We both know that if there was data all we would see is the amount of times the feature was used wrongly, meaning players doing the bad things, not the feature. In order to consider the feature as being at fault we would need evidence that the feature TOOK ACTIONS that the players DID NOT CONSENT TO. Since the players are in FULL CONTROL of this feature, it means the ONLY thing at fault in all of this are THE PLAYERS.

An inanimate object CANNOT be at fault. It it our job as human beings to recognize our shortcomings and be responsible for our actions, not plame things that can't do anything on their own. That's just life, it doesn't need data or evidence, I'm sure you drink water, you don't need a link to know why, it's the EXACT same thing here. Just because YOU don't understand doesn't mean other people don't.