Personal Loot Feedback - Three Raids Later

[Eosia]

When there's no empirical you gotta use your rational.

Except there *IS* empirical. The problewm, well at least for you, is the fact the Blizzard has not chosen to release it. That does not negate its existence.

[kebabmasterxd]

I don't mind it in pugs sometimes..

but when the shittiest member of a pug raid gets loot i hate it.

also when i farm old content i hate it even more...

[CrawlFromThePit]

Except there *IS* empirical. The problewm, well at least for you, is the fact the Blizzard has not chosen to release it. That does not negate its existence.

Okay, no empirical publicly available. Happy with the semantics now?

The problem is not just for me, because your claim isn't supported by any empirial evidence either. You're doing exactly what I'm doing but you hide behind an arbitrary and wrong mentality of "I don't have to back up anything I say". At least rational is on my side and not yours.

[Eosia]

The problem is not just for me, because your claim isn't supported by any empirial evidence either. You're doing exactly what I'm doing but you hide behind an arbitrary and wrong mentality of "I don't have to back up anything I say". At least rational is on my side and not yours.

Nope. You're still wrong and desperately clinging to the notion you are right. But the problem is, now that you finally have accepted the fact that empirical data does exist, you still are operating under the premise that Ion got her team together around a table and asked "How can we screw over players and piss them off the most?" in order to remove ML. Because only idiots actually think that.

Especially in light of the fact that we have seen Blizzard develop systemic solutions to problems that they, developers/GMs/etc., have had to deal with way too much. Where do you think the Item Restore web front end came from? Or the ability to restore a character on your own? Both of these used to require a GM's direct intervention and took up a lot of time with ticket queues. Now we do it ourselves.

Same thing with ML. They saw a problem with it as time moved on. They attempted to fix it in Legion with making it only available in Guild Groups. That effort apparently was not enough so they removed in BfA.

Without knowing the exact reason(s), and what it/they were based on, you either have to assume that Blizzard was correct in their action and while you do not necessarily like it, you understand and accept it. Or you go back to the "Let's Screw Over Players!" assumption.

also when i farm old content i hate it even more...

Which only affect Legion. Nothing else. When you are 10+ levels above the content, a different loot mode kicks in.

[Kralljin]

Especially in light of the fact that we have seen Blizzard develop systemic solutions to problems that they, developers/GMs/etc., have had to deal with way too much. Where do you think the Item Restore web front end came from? Or the ability to restore a character on your own? Both of these used to require a GM's direct intervention and took up a lot of time with ticket queues. Now we do it ourselves.

These systems were implemented to take off work from support staff.
In other words, to cut costs.

You are trying to create an equivalency between a primarily economical decision and a gameplay one.

It's like saying: not balancing the game is good because then Blizzard has to put less dev resources into balancing.
Like yeah, that's what the people at accounting would say, but not necessarily the customers.

Especially in the light of fact that ML being restricted to guilds caused no direct issues on Blizzards end.

Did someone ninja loot in a guild run?
Blizzard reply: Your loss.

The only real issue is *if* Blizzard saw said loot drama drove guilds apart and people quit en masse.
And trying to read that out of data is next to impossible unless Blizzard has had an indepth discussion with every player that did quit over the years.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Nope. You're still wrong and desperately clinging to the notion you are right. But the problem is, now that you finally have accepted the fact that empirical data does exist, you still are operating under the premise that Ion got her team together around a table and asked "How can we screw over players and piss them off the most?" in order to remove ML. Because only idiots actually think that.

Especially in light of the fact that we have seen Blizzard develop systemic solutions to problems that they, developers/GMs/etc., have had to deal with way too much. Where do you think the Item Restore web front end came from? Or the ability to restore a character on your own? Both of these used to require a GM's direct intervention and took up a lot of time with ticket queues. Now we do it ourselves.

Same thing with ML. They saw a problem with it as time moved on. They attempted to fix it in Legion with making it only available in Guild Groups. That effort apparently was not enough so they removed in BfA.

Without knowing the exact reason(s), and what it/they were based on, you either have to assume that Blizzard was correct in their action and while you do not necessarily like it, you understand and accept it. Or you go back to the "Let's Screw Over Players!" assumption.

That's a lot of effort into twisting what I said to support your flawed narrative.

Lmao, "you have to assume they are correct in their actions". Give me a break, sheep. You don't even think for yourself, you just gladly eat whatever Blizzard puts in front of us and never question it.

[Linri]

The game has shifted more towards a single player game, with other people around you also playing a single player game. In an MMO setting.
It is less about the masses and more about the individual now. Which is fine, but some times doing a boss run for that 1 piece of loot you need so bad, and it never drop for you is quite annoying.

[Eosia]

These systems were implemented to take off work from support staff.
In other words, to cut costs.

Your grasp of the obvious is ASTOUNDING! Of course Blizzard does this to cut costs. Wasting a GM's time with tickets they could be better served actually helping players does save money. You do know theypay their GMs, right?

While I am not familiar with the process, I do know the GM would have to go back through every log generated on the server for every player in the group. They would also have to track down and find where loot rules were openly stated in chat. Then they have top make their ruling, work in the system to remove the item, administer any punishments they deem necessary and proper, then close the ticket out. It's not an instantaneous process.

You are trying to create an equivalency between a primarily economical decision and a gameplay one.

And I would see that accidentally destroying an item or having to have your character restored are also game play issues.

Did someone ninja loot in a guild run?
Blizzard reply: Your loss.

While Blizzard does not recognize what the vast majority of players consider to be "ninja looting" such as a Healer rolling for a DPS trinket for OS and taking it from a MS DPS. Blizzard has no way of recognizing that. They still do recognize some instances of it when it cross the line and becomes a scam when it is advertised that "Mimiron's Head is open roll!" and then is actually just ML'd to someone unilaterally. Blizzard will step in then. Or at least they would have prior to the removal of ML.

That's a lot of effort into twisting what I said to support your flawed narrative.

Lmao, "you have to assume they are correct in their actions". Give me a break, sheep. You don't even think for yourself, you just gladly eat whatever Blizzard puts in front of us and never question it.[/QUOTE]

You have yet to point out a single flaw in my "narrative". I am just merely stating the fact that, unless you are stupid enough to believe that Blizzard just sits around a table at every major patch and decides what class/spec they hate the most so they can nerf it into the ground and other things that serve no purpose other than to piss off players and screw them over, then Blizzard's decision to remove ML is justified. Pardon me for assuming you were not stupid. You obviously must believe Ion is out to get you.

And no, I don't "gladly eat whatever Blizzard puts in front of us". I am just not entitled. I do not feel that my $15-20/mo makes me anymore special than someone else who pays $15-20/mo so I cannot dictate design decisions. I can voice my opinion on them and disagree, but that is all. I also recognize that I am not privy to Blizzard's internal workings and therefore cannot even speak of them outside the realm of speculation.

And since I do not subscribe to the aforementioned "Let's screw players over!" theory of the developers, I can conclude that in their mind the change was justified. I also pay attention to them, like when Lore said in a Q&A once that in situations where they make changes along those lines, they will do so conservatively. They can always keep going but having to pull back is harder. The change of ML to guild groups only in Legion was that incremental change. Obviously, they did not feel it was enough.

You just want to keep circling around and around and around because you want to be right. The problem is you have nothing you can base it on. Just semantic games about a feature and how it is innocent and it was players who abused the poor thing. Too bad the feature was Blizzard's creation. The problems caused by the abuse are Blizzard's to deal with. And the preventative measures Blizzard takes to end the abuse are theirs as well. If Blizzard had publicly laid out the reason they made the change, then you could actually debate it. They have denied that it was about stopping so-called "split runs" that high-end guilds were doing but Ion is on record stating that there is not much they can do about that ultimately. So that is out the window. But as of right now, in spite of your protestations to the contrary, you have nothing to really argue and you are in denial of that fact.

[Kralljin]

While I am not familiar with the process, I do know the GM would have to go back through every log generated on the server for every player in the group. They would also have to track down and find where loot rules were openly stated in chat. Then they have top make their ruling, work in the system to remove the item, administer any punishments they deem necessary and proper, then close the ticket out. It's not an instantaneous process.

Okay, now what?
I don't have a problem with the fact that PL is enforced in pugs, it's the fact that PL is enforced in every group, including guilds.
In any case of a guild group having to deal with "ninjalooting", Blizzard wouldn't take action anyway as any guild group is built upon trust and not on fact that the ML might ninja everything.

And I would see that accidentally destroying an item or having to have your character restored are also game play issues.

For all intents and purposes, they're not.
They're a service provided by Blizzard outside of the regular game world.

They're as much as a gameplay feature as character transfers are.

Blizzard will step in then. Or at least they would have prior to the removal of ML.

If a guild group has a case of "ninjalooting", Blizzard won't do shit.
Because no ML (who on top of that has the intention of ninjalooting) of a guild does state the lootrules in the ingame chat before every single raid.
No Lootrules stated = No Insurance.

Talking about Blizzard taking action, ML and Ninjalooting is totally irrelevant, this only affected pugs.
Guild problems are not Blizzards problem, if the Guild leader decides to take the entire gold within a guild bank, Blizzard isn't going to do shit against that as well.

[CrawlFromThePit]

You have yet to point out a single flaw in my "narrative". I am just merely stating the fact that, unless you are stupid enough to believe that Blizzard just sits around a table at every major patch and decides what class/spec they hate the most so they can nerf it into the ground and other things that serve no purpose other than to piss off players and screw them over, then Blizzard's decision to remove ML is justified. Pardon me for assuming you were not stupid. You obviously must believe Ion is out to get you.

And no, I don't "gladly eat whatever Blizzard puts in front of us". I am just not entitled. I do not feel that my $15-20/mo makes me anymore special than someone else who pays $15-20/mo so I cannot dictate design decisions. I can voice my opinion on them and disagree, but that is all. I also recognize that I am not privy to Blizzard's internal workings and therefore cannot even speak of them outside the realm of speculation.

And since I do not subscribe to the aforementioned "Let's screw players over!" theory of the developers, I can conclude that in their mind the change was justified. I also pay attention to them, like when Lore said in a Q&A once that in situations where they make changes along those lines, they will do so conservatively. They can always keep going but having to pull back is harder. The change of ML to guild groups only in Legion was that incremental change. Obviously, they did not feel it was enough.

You just want to keep circling around and around and around because you want to be right. The problem is you have nothing you can base it on. Just semantic games about a feature and how it is innocent and it was players who abused the poor thing. Too bad the feature was Blizzard's creation. The problems caused by the abuse are Blizzard's to deal with. And the preventative measures Blizzard takes to end the abuse are theirs as well. If Blizzard had publicly laid out the reason they made the change, then you could actually debate it. They have denied that it was about stopping so-called "split runs" that high-end guilds were doing but Ion is on record stating that there is not much they can do about that ultimately. So that is out the window. But as of right now, in spite of your protestations to the contrary, you have nothing to really argue and you are in denial of that fact.

I already said I don't think Blizzard is sitting there making up plans to piss people off. Why do you keep saying that? You know it's a wrong statement but you just keep hammering it. Is it to make sure everyone thinks you're an idiot or is it because you don't really read my posts and start typing a reply after the first sentence that triggered you?

I do keep circling around but it's not because I want to be right. It's because I am right. The apple is red and I called it red, if you call it green I will keep calling it red until you get it or give up. I have no reason to say something different or change my mind since it's not an opinion or a perspective, I'm only stating reality.
It's not hard to understand, the two options existed (ML and PL), players made the conscious decisions of joining ML groups instead of PL groups or making their own PL groups. Then they proceeded to complain about the way other players used the feature. Therefore the problem is the players. Why would you need a scientific research paper and/or data to be convinced of this? Or even more importantly, why do you even need to be CONVINCED of this statement? You're supposed to see it INSTANTLY it's just as obvious as the color of an apple. It's just how things work, if someone uses something incorrectly and it backfires it means the user is the problem, that goes for EVERYTHING in life. If people use something correctly and all goes well, there's no problem, exactly like the millions of times people used ML correctly. When it went wrong it was NEVER because the feature malfunctioned, it was because it wasn't used correctly by players.

The problem was always the players. You can't change my mind because you can't change reality.

[MidnyteTV]

Your grasp of the obvious is ASTOUNDING! Of course Blizzard does this to cut costs. Wasting a GM's time with tickets they could be better served actually helping players does save money. You do know theypay their GMs, right?

While I am not familiar with the process, I do know the GM would have to go back through every log generated on the server for every player in the group. They would also have to track down and find where loot rules were openly stated in chat. Then they have top make their ruling, work in the system to remove the item, administer any punishments they deem necessary and proper, then close the ticket out. It's not an instantaneous process.



And I would see that accidentally destroying an item or having to have your character restored are also game play issues.



While Blizzard does not recognize what the vast majority of players consider to be "ninja looting" such as a Healer rolling for a DPS trinket for OS and taking it from a MS DPS. Blizzard has no way of recognizing that. They still do recognize some instances of it when it cross the line and becomes a scam when it is advertised that "Mimiron's Head is open roll!" and then is actually just ML'd to someone unilaterally. Blizzard will step in then. Or at least they would have prior to the removal of ML.



Lmao, "you have to assume they are correct in their actions". Give me a break, sheep. You don't even think for yourself, you just gladly eat whatever Blizzard puts in front of us and never question it.

You have yet to point out a single flaw in my "narrative". I am just merely stating the fact that, unless you are stupid enough to believe that Blizzard just sits around a table at every major patch and decides what class/spec they hate the most so they can nerf it into the ground and other things that serve no purpose other than to piss off players and screw them over, then Blizzard's decision to remove ML is justified. Pardon me for assuming you were not stupid. You obviously must believe Ion is out to get you.

And no, I don't "gladly eat whatever Blizzard puts in front of us". I am just not entitled. I do not feel that my $15-20/mo makes me anymore special than someone else who pays $15-20/mo so I cannot dictate design decisions. I can voice my opinion on them and disagree, but that is all. I also recognize that I am not privy to Blizzard's internal workings and therefore cannot even speak of them outside the realm of speculation.

And since I do not subscribe to the aforementioned "Let's screw players over!" theory of the developers, I can conclude that in their mind the change was justified. I also pay attention to them, like when Lore said in a Q&A once that in situations where they make changes along those lines, they will do so conservatively. They can always keep going but having to pull back is harder. The change of ML to guild groups only in Legion was that incremental change. Obviously, they did not feel it was enough.

You just want to keep circling around and around and around because you want to be right. The problem is you have nothing you can base it on. Just semantic games about a feature and how it is innocent and it was players who abused the poor thing. Too bad the feature was Blizzard's creation. The problems caused by the abuse are Blizzard's to deal with. And the preventative measures Blizzard takes to end the abuse are theirs as well. If Blizzard had publicly laid out the reason they made the change, then you could actually debate it. They have denied that it was about stopping so-called "split runs" that high-end guilds were doing but Ion is on record stating that there is not much they can do about that ultimately. So that is out the window. But as of right now, in spite of your protestations to the contrary, you have nothing to really argue and you are in denial of that fact.[/QUOTE]

Dude you are totally full of beans.

I have yet to meet a single pro-PL person that can answer these 2 questions: Why the fuck did you stay in the guild that supposedly screwed you over loot every week for years? AND Why the fuck didn't you join a guild that used a loot system you preferred, or started one yourself?

That's a YOU problem, not a Blizzard problem.

But Blizzard is ok with PL. The most flawed lot system with the most flawed logic in the history of game development. And as you can see, it has killed organized guild raiding to the point where it is laughable to even consider starting a guild at this point.

Maybe all of you pro PL people should get together and start your own guild. Let's see how long that lasts.

[Spotnick]

Personal loot is probably fine, but master loot should be available for mythic difficulty.

The only reason I can see why it's useful for mythic raids is the case when 3 warglaives would drop without a DH in the raid.. this can't happen on personal loot... and it opens the door for more unique loot for classes such as librams in the past.

Personally my problem with it is that people just don,t even care anymore so you don't see what's available to roll on and you don't even roll your gear.. because it's a hassle that used to be done by the system... I don't understand why there isn't a built-in system to allow the players to let other rolls on an item they won if they can trade it... that would save so much time.

[Eosia]

The problem was always the players. You can't change my mind because you can't change reality.

No one ever said it wasn't. But when an exploit exists in the game, what does Blizzard do? Just let it go and keep punishing thep layers who utilize it? No, they fix it. When little Timmy keeps pounding holes in the wall with a hammer, do you just wag your finger at him and go "tsk tsk tsk" and just patch the holes in it? No. You take the hammer away.

What you fail to grasp is that the feature itself not being the problem but how it was used and abuse is IRRELEVANT. There were still problems that Blizzard had to deal with. As such, they implemented the fix they wanted to. That is the part you fail to grasp.

Dude you are totally full of beans.

I have yet to meet a single pro-PL person that can answer these 2 questions: Why the fuck did you stay in the guild that supposedly screwed you over loot every week for years? AND Why the fuck didn't you join a guild that used a loot system you preferred, or started one yourself?

Obviously there are other factors at play. The problem is the Pro-ML people are all making assumptions based on their own rationalizations and not hard data. Pro-PL people presume Blizzard had data to go by which showed problems with ML that they no longer wanted to deal with and thus resitrcted it to Guild Groups on Legion and finally removed it in 8.0.

That's a YOU problem, not a Blizzard problem.

You could say the same thing about the lack of ML. No one has been able to demonstrably come up with an argument that would show Blizzard erred when they removed ML. We are now almost 18 months into its removal. The world keeps turning. Guilds have not fallen. Method is still kicking people's butts in competitive raiding. Nothing has changed except what people are whining over.

But Blizzard is ok with PL. The most flawed lot system with the most flawed logic in the history of game development. And as you can see, it has killed organized guild raiding to the point where it is laughable to even consider starting a guild at this point.

And your data to back up your claim is....

[Kralljin]

There were still problems that Blizzard had to deal with. As such, they implemented the fix they wanted to. That is the part you fail to grasp.

They didn't have to when it was restricted to guild groups.

You could say the same thing about the lack of ML. No one has been able to demonstrably come up with an argument that would show Blizzard erred when they removed ML. We are now almost 18 months into its removal. The world keeps turning. Guilds have not fallen. Method is still kicking people's butts in competitive raiding. Nothing has changed except what people are whining over.

This is such a low bar.

I could also say that the Azerite system is good because people are still playing the game and Method is still #1.


Your entire argument at this point is:
Blizzard did it, they have the data, therefore it's better.

When history shows that Blizzard is very much human and could also have not see things through, it wouldn't be the first time where they had to roll back on certain changes.

[Onikaroshi]

PL being restrictive is the reason why it works: no one can force you trade or shame you for not trading if game does not allow it.
Loosening the rules up will break it.
What is needed is loot rebalance: make sockets bump item level, make warforging go in 15 ilvl increments instead of 5, make primary stats much more useful. That way item level will in become an upgrade most of the time thus removing a lot of situations where you don't need something yet can not trade it.

Oh God that sounds horrible, them trying to make ilvl king is one of the worst things they've ever done to loot, why even have other stats when all you look at is one, ilvl

[Great Destiny Man]

No one ever said it wasn't. But when an exploit exists in the game, what does Blizzard do? Just let it go and keep punishing thep layers who utilize it? No, they fix it. When little Timmy keeps pounding holes in the wall with a hammer, do you just wag your finger at him and go "tsk tsk tsk" and just patch the holes in it? No. You take the hammer away.

Game exploits are a completely different talking point, trying to lump it in with ML abuse is false equivalency.

Blizzard have made many changes to the game that have attempted to curb negative player behaviour against other players, that doesn't automatically mean the original behaviour fell under the categorisation of game exploits.

[CrawlFromThePit]

No one ever said it wasn't. But when an exploit exists in the game, what does Blizzard do? Just let it go and keep punishing thep layers who utilize it? No, they fix it. When little Timmy keeps pounding holes in the wall with a hammer, do you just wag your finger at him and go "tsk tsk tsk" and just patch the holes in it? No. You take the hammer away.

Yes you take the hammer away from Timmy who can't use it for shit. You don't take it away from the construction worker who has been using it correctly for 10 years.

Thank you for proving my point with an even better example than I could come up with.

[LorDC]

Oh God that sounds horrible, them trying to make ilvl king is one of the worst things they've ever done to loot, why even have other stats when all you look at is one, ilvl

Why even have other stats when all you look is one, simulationcraft results?
That is the problem of having Internet and large community with enough game-mechanical, math and programming savvy people: complex (as in, harder than 3rd grade math) gear systems just stop working. Anyone who cares about min-maxing has to follow guides that pop up weeks before next patch rolls out or worse - use external sites to optimize their gear.

[Onikaroshi]

Why even have other stats when all you look is one, simulationcraft results?
That is the problem of having Internet and large community with enough game-mechanical, math and programming savvy people: complex (as in, harder than 3rd grade math) gear systems just stop working. Anyone who cares about min-maxing has to follow guides that pop up weeks before next patch rolls out or worse - use external sites to optimize their gear.

I'm talking about points in time when secondaries meant something. ArP in Wrath, you tried to stack as much as possible to get to 100%, ilvl wasn't a big deal if it had the proper stats. Or Monks with Rune of Reorigination in MoP, trying to balance your stats perfectly so that the one you wanted it to switch to was a close to the others as possible. Those things were fun. Seeing a piece of gear that is 10 ilvls higher and it's automatically better is not fun. It's not there yet for most classes, but I worry it's heading there.

[Costa]

I do not care for whatever systems they implement IF they let you choose which one your raid want to use. It should not be gated and forced choice for something so touchy in terms of subject. Let me make a group loot for my guild or let me make this pug personal loot etc. I do not get why this is not a thing from Blizzard it makes no sense.

I think as well from a fantasy perspective group loot was always more "fun" when everyone races to loot the boss after it died to see what it dropped and see if they had a chance at "x" item. Now all it is, you loot an item and instantly get 10 whispers "DO U NEED?!?!" like jesus christ lol.