Personal Loot Feedback - Three Raids Later

[Cosmic Janitor]

It achieved the two things that were intended, fucked over cancer-guilds and fucked over equipping speed of people outside the world 200 list. Sadly they also sabotaged it with welfare m+ gear, because that is what it amounts to at this point. I really hope Blizzard will specialize gear more with the next expansion, because m+ has killed all incentive to raid anything below mythic at this moment in time - at least when it comes to gear progression.

[Mardux]

I am a solo player so I like it. I can get into a pug and not have to worry about some asshole deciding his friend gets something over me, even after a roll win.

Why even pretend this was an issue before the removal of ML? PUG groups were restricted to forced personal loot even while ML was around...

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I'm not wrong, in fact, every single guild I have ever been who used it abused the system to some degree. Not always to the extreme, but still, a little bias is still bias and it's bullshit.
I even gave examples.

Given, I didn't play in high-end raiding guilds where it could have been a neutral thing. But then again, those guilds don't complain but do their most optimal distribution, to this day.

Everyone else is a fckin hypocrite who just wants a free pass for loot from daddy GM once in a while to not feel bad about their bad performance.

You chose to join guilds run by shitty people, so the guilds that weren’t run by shitty people should be punished. Gotcha.

[Huzzaa]

The fact that it's a debate at all is mind boggling.

PL is trash, period.

For any organized group it's a hindrance thrown in their faces to overcome.

[kansor]

Reintroduce it for Mythic. You are already assuming total player cooperation with Mythic fights, so it's contradictory and frustrating design that you aren't also assuming it for Mythic loot.

[wrynil]

I'm not wrong, in fact, every single guild I have ever been who used it abused the system to some degree. Not always to the extreme, but still, a little bias is still bias and it's bullshit.
I even gave examples.

Given, I didn't play in high-end raiding guilds where it could have been a neutral thing. But then again, those guilds don't complain but do their most optimal distribution, to this day.

Everyone else is a fckin hypocrite who just wants a free pass for loot from daddy GM once in a while to not feel bad about their bad performance.

You are very much wrong.. Your anecdoctal evidence is in fact not evidence of anything else but your view of your experience... Tbh I would bet you don't even know if those cases you have experienced have been abuse, but just you not seeing the bigger picture/having been let in on the details and reasoning behind the choices that were made.

Throughout my years of playing, I've mostly played as a healer, and many times have I've been in a council. The philosphy that were most often used in the raid settings where that in generel gearing dps matters more than gearing healers. This varies in guilds, but its been my raidleading experience that it holds some water in old heroic and mythic settings. As such I've always voted against myself in the case of it being between dps and healers or dps and tanks. That will always be cases where this philosophy dont apply directly. In those cases we have used sims, attendance, potential and more parameters.

As an example we choose to give a big tf trinket from second boss in Nighthold to a new mage in the guild. He had the biggest upgrade and showed both potential and great attitude. Sometimes those choices will bite you, sometimes it will pay off.

Half of the time I've been GM I've assigned other masterlooters and not been a direct part of it. These experiences have been from top 50-1100 guilds. So no its not fact you are presenting, but anecdotes just like me.

And to be fair I have not experienced many ninja lootings to begin with throughout my many years of playing.. But a few months of personalloot got me so down; all the things we couldnt distribute to the players that needed it, the things people didn't need but couldn't trade. Those cases have been so many and each time it felt like complete shit and backpaddling.. What a completly depressing lootseting in socialized play..

OT. PL does not belong in socialized well working and coordinated groups of players in my opinion. I may return to the game if they decide its not a singleplayer game anymore.

[DechCJC]

I think anyone that believes that this change is ok for mythic raiding was either in a toxic guild or have a poor attitude towards group progression.

The raid team can be seen as one object when it comes to clearing; One person simply getting lucky and getting all the best drops is like going to the gym and only working out your left foot. It's absolutely fine for pugs and for people that are never going to see eachother again for personal loot to exist, I actually prefer it for myself nowadays as I don't mythic raid. But It would have pissed me off to no end years ago.

If the issue comes down to ninjaing or whatever, then it was never a very good guild to begin with and it was unlikely that proper gear distribution would have had a major affect on progression anyway. You always have the option to leave the guild or talk things through like adults if you don't like how they play, Blizzard shouldn't be trying to control it.

This wouldn't have been a big deal if master loot never existed in the first place, I think it was silly to remove it after it being in the game for this long.

[SirBeef]

Since my guild formed in late Cata, we have used /roll for all loot. Only stipulation is you win once, and cannot roll again unless it is an item no one else needs for MS, then it's open of OS, then DE material. We never had an issue of loot drama since it was transparent, no opinions as to who deserves or needs it more, and fast. Since PL became an option we switched to that. No issues since. Some raids we geared up faster, some slower, over all it has been the same. Our guild does not care about progression in terms of the race, server rank and so on. We get on drink and raid. If we get stuck, we try again next time. So no, I personally have no plans even though we have been stuck on Za'qul for a while now, and no one has left in previous times where we were stuck.

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I think anyone that believes that this change is ok for mythic raiding was either in a toxic guild or have a poor attitude towards group progression.

The raid team can be seen as one object when it comes to clearing; One person simply getting lucky and getting all the best drops is like going to the gym and only working out your left foot. It's absolutely fine for pugs and for people that are never going to see eachother again for personal loot to exist, I actually prefer it for myself nowadays as I don't mythic raid. But It would have pissed me off to no end years ago.

Provided the goal of the group is to be competitive. We just don't care. This is a fun social thing for us. Most of the time we clear the second half of mythic raids when overgearing them. typically one of the last guilds on our server to clear the raid on mythic and usually it is just a few weeks before the next one comes out if we do. It doesn't matter to us. Sure it happens and sure some get a bit jealous when it does, it's human nature, and trades happen willingly, never forced. But then we just care about having fun socializing while getting drunk and raiding.

[bullseyed]

we had a 455 Azshara trinket drop for a fury warrior on our first heroic kill who has it in his bags just for the lols now and hasn't equipped it a single time - to the detriment of the 3 fire mages and numerous other specs it would have been useful for.

Easy to tell this is made up, as any competent player would equip it to both trinket slots, even if they then remove it, so that they could trade the next one.

[Rendark]

I'm not wrong, in fact, every single guild I have ever been who used it abused the system to some degree. Not always to the extreme, but still, a little bias is still bias and it's bullshit.
I even gave examples.

Given, I didn't play in high-end raiding guilds where it could have been a neutral thing. But then again, those guilds don't complain but do their most optimal distribution, to this day.

Everyone else is a fckin hypocrite who just wants a free pass for loot from daddy GM once in a while to not feel bad about their bad performance.

Stop joining guilds that suck then. Most guilds that used master loot never abused it because that would just kill your raid team.

[bullseyed]

I think anyone that believes that this change is ok for mythic raiding was either in a toxic guild or have a poor attitude towards group progression.

I don't mythic raid.

It was fairly easy to tell you don't mythic raid from your post.

Prior to personal loot, mythic guilds needed to run 20+ heroic raids per week with every player having an alt of every class to funnel gear to main raiders, which was a toxic and unsustainable practice.

Now to do such split runs, they need to have full raids of equally geared alts that can then trade items.

Unfortunately 'e-famous' types can convince losers to join their split runs on their mains and funnel gear to a streamer so that their name shows up on some stream that doesn't matter.

[Levogames]

There was a lot of complaints in these forums when Master Looter was removed and all raid loot was turned personal. Now, 3 raids later, what are people's opinion of the current loot system?

To GMs and Raid Leaders:
- Is Personal Loot helping you with player retention by reducing loot drama?
- Or is it making player retention harder since players are no longer invested in sticking around in the guild once they are loot capped?

To Raiders:
- Has personal loot helped your raiding experience by reducing loot drama?
- Do you feel interested in staying with a guild once the guild hits a major road block or do you just move on to higher progression guild for easier loot drops?

As a Gm and Rl I lost tons of people bc the "less good ones" always looted things that they can trade but they wanted every piece of gear bc they don't really know how to optimize. Then I had to establish kind of loot council where all tradeable items are rolled.
I had very skilled people who wasted almost 3 months carrying bosses just because they needed one specific trinket but they left bc there was no way of getting it, bad luck, worst rng.


As a raider, I didn't left bc I had luck with coins and loot, but I saw a lot of Friends leaving the game. Also, if you don't play with friends, there is always a group of friends that only trades loot between them.
I just left my second raid bc we have huge troubles to kill Ashvane and 5 people who don't play to win or just don't even have 65 neck. Is sad.

Please return Master loot, please.

[bullseyed]

Maybe if you only got inside really terrible pug groups, but thats not at all how it was in the grand majority of things IMO.

Blizzard, the people who actually know and had to answer the GM tickets about it, says you're wrong.

[DechCJC]

It was fairly easy to tell you don't mythic raid from your post.

Prior to personal loot, mythic guilds needed to run 20+ heroic raids per week with every player having an alt of every class to funnel gear to main raiders, which was a toxic and unsustainable practice.

Now to do such split runs, they need to have full raids of equally geared alts that can then trade items.

Unfortunately 'e-famous' types can convince losers to join their split runs on their mains and funnel gear to a streamer so that their name shows up on some stream that doesn't matter.

I said I don't mythic raid right now.

There's a big difference between a group of players that want to clear the content and a group of players that want to pour their heart and soul into it for a few weeks to get a top world ranking. Only the latter would do what you're talking about as the gear would come naturally to anyone clearing it in a reasonable time-frame.

You can't seriously believe that this was the norm for mythic raiding. Even if it was, there are better workarounds than this.

[bullseyed]

If it was "full of ninja looting" it would have happened to me more than zero times.

just stupid.

Uses formal logical fallacies as arguments.

Calls other people stupid.

[prwraith]

Honestly personal loot seems designed to fuck over guilds. Like as if that was the only goal and then they had to invent PR to explain it was something else after they were done.

It's a nightmare for anybody who regularly progs mythic.

[DechCJC]

Provided the goal of the group is to be competitive. We just don't care. This is a fun social thing for us. Most of the time we clear the second half of mythic raids when overgearing them. typically one of the last guilds on our server to clear the raid on mythic and usually it is just a few weeks before the next one comes out if we do. It doesn't matter to us. Sure it happens and sure some get a bit jealous when it does, it's human nature, and trades happen willingly, never forced. But then we just care about having fun socializing while getting drunk and raiding.

I think that's absolutely fine, great even; This is why it should be a choice just like switching to group loot or free for all is a choice.

[klaps_05]

When kids are unable to leave guilds which abuse ML/LC, blizzard needs to step in. Lack of ML just made the game extremely selfish as especially during progress most people cant trade items due to ilevel. So you go in the raid, you loot your item, you leave. There is no sense of "oh wow i got this which is mediocre for me but amazing for that warlock, so ill give it to him ofc", no sense of Comradery.

[bullseyed]

I do understand the idea behind this though: Loot Councils. Would have been smarter for Blizzard to design it's own version of DKP and made a UI for it. Would most likely curb the behavior of Loot Councils. Getting told you don't get an item because someone on the LC doesn't like you feels great. Especially, when you're on the loot council and they say it then and there

Still think if it's my own volition, I should be able to give it to someone else though.

The problem is it is not of your own volition as far as the system knows. It's "trade X to Y or gkick" implicitly.

One of the bigger problem with loot councils is if you look at who the item is the biggest upgrade for, you're usually rewarding the worst and laziest people in the raid.

The best adjustment to the loot system would be to make sockets count as ilvl. So a 430 socketed = 460 because the socket counts as 30 ilvls. Then if you get a 445 you can trade it.

[Raelbo]

There was a lot of complaints in these forums when Master Looter was removed and all raid loot was turned personal. Now, 3 raids later, what are people's opinion of the current loot system?

I suspect that, for a lot of the fiercest opponents of PL, their opinion will never change. Sometimes people just have to be right, even if it's plainly obvious that they're not.

[Maljinwo]

The only issue is the ilvl restriction. Other than that it's been great