Personal Loot Feedback - Three Raids Later

[Eosia]

Why? You already claim to have seen this data. Is there a problem in your argument, sir? Is this more double standard from someone trying to prove me wrong just for the sake of fighting on the interwebz?

No, that is just you projecting. I just know the data exists because Blizzard obviously had to make the decision based on something. And since only a complete idiot would actually believe that the devs sit around holding meetings about how to "screw subscribers" over and "ruin the game" there is another explanation. Hence why the existence of the data is easily deduced.

You are the one who has claimed to see it.

[rrayy]

What makes a feature perfectly fine is if it does it's intended job perfectly. If the game had to remove everything that's not perfectly fine according to your definition then we would not even have a game at all.

Agagin, any feature that allows eplotation and abuse that easily like ML is not working perfectly fine. And nothing else remotely comes that close to be easily exploited, so your argument is not valid.

The only data they have is that the players are the problem. ML does not mind control people or give loot to different people than who the masterlooter decided to give it to. So the feature does its job, the players don't.

Explained many times before, I have no idea why you would make a post just to say something that is the opposite of reality. Pick that mic up and stop shaking so it will stop slipping out of your frail hands.

Which is why ML is a problem. Explained this many times before, if a mecahanic and feature is that easy to abuse and exploit, it's a problem.

- - - Updated - - -

So then you have a link to where they released this data?

Not actual access to the data, but the fact they removed ML proves the data was significant.

[Tekkommo]

Hate it.

Hoping they change it back next expansion, this is a MMORPG (well meant to be, Blizz seem to just keep pushing the arcade game route), not a looter shooter.

[rrayy]

My argument has and always will be forcing people to use PL is shitty.

Continuing to allows loot abuse and ninjaing by keeping ML would have been even worse.

- - - Updated - - -

No it wasn't.

Yes it was. Allowing people to screw over other players is ALWAYS more damaging to the game then a system that is fair to everyone.

[Tekkommo]

Yes it was. Allowing people to screw over other players is ALWAYS more damaging to the game then a system that is fair to everyone.

There is no ultimate fair system.

Item drops.

ML: Leader makes sure it goes to someone that needs it and is useful to them (last time I saw someone ninja loot with ML was back in WotLK).
Personal: Loot drops, person doesn't need it, has better gear equipped, ignores whispers if he needs it or not. Loot is vendored and lost to everyone else in raid.

This is what happens in pugs with personal loot. People that share their loot when they don't need is in the minority.

We all have different experiences, but this is mine when I pugged a lot when my guild stopped raiding this expansion.

[Drusin]

You guys saying no more raid leaders taking what they want have been in some shitty groups. 11 years raiding and I've only had that happen ONCE and I reported him and that was the end of it.

[Garymorilix]

There is no ultimate fair system.

Item drops.

ML: Leader makes sure it goes to someone that needs it and is useful to them.
Personal: Loot drops, person doesn't need it, has better gear equipped, ignores whispers if he needs it or not. Loot is sold and lost to everyone else in raid.

This is what happens in pugs with personal loot. People that share their loot when they don't need is in the minority.

We all have different experiences, but this is mine when I pugged a lot when my guild stopped raiding in this expansion.

What do you mean there no ultimate fair system?

PL is the fairest it can be: everyone has the exact same chance to get loot from the boss, no bias, just pure chance.

Here's how the system works:
ML: Leader makes sure the item goes to someone that needs it and is useful to them. Oh wait, but that guy is too new, well then, second best guy. Oh wait, that guy missed a raid in the past 2 months, then 3rd best guy. Oh, he died at the boss to avoidable damage, then let's give it to my friend instead.
Even worse case: That trinket is reserved for my GF, she has been farming it for 2 weeks now, I know you do double her HPS but still, she really wants it. Sorry.
You never even had the chance at loot.

PL: Loot drops for people, and that's the end of the story. The only one having power is RNGesus.
You had a chance at loot.

If someone doesn't need it and ignores your whisper then he already gave it to his friend. Shit sucks but at least you still had your chance at loot.
With ML they would just everything. That's the difference.

[Rendark]

Continuing to allows loot abuse and ninjaing by keeping ML would have been even worse.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes it was. Allowing people to screw over other players is ALWAYS more damaging to the game then a system that is fair to everyone.

Stuff like that didn't happen has much as you think it did.

[Dilbon]

There's nothing more fair than pure RNG without any human interaction whatsoever.

[CrawlFromThePit]

No, that is just you projecting. I just know the data exists because Blizzard obviously had to make the decision based on something. And since only a complete idiot would actually believe that the devs sit around holding meetings about how to "screw subscribers" over and "ruin the game" there is another explanation. Hence why the existence of the data is easily deduced.

You are the one who has claimed to see it.

Not at all, you first made the assumption that there is data, without having seen anything, and then made the claim that you knew what the data said. Basically you're talking out of your ass and not even providing either logic, analysis, or anything of value, your only goal is trying to prove me wrong by any means necessary including making things up, all that because the logical argument I provide hurts your feelings.

- - - Updated - - -

Agagin, any feature that allows eplotation and abuse that easily like ML is not working perfectly fine. And nothing else remotely comes that close to be easily exploited, so your argument is not valid.




Which is why ML is a problem. Explained this many times before, if a mecahanic and feature is that easy to abuse and exploit, it's a problem.

- - - Updated - - -

Not actual access to the data, but the fact they removed ML proves the data was significant.

Are you just gonna repeat wrong statements over and over or are you gonna learn at some point?
The problem is not the result of an action, it's what causes the action. The ML feature does not mind control people into wanting them to ninja stuff. That's garbage player greed that existed before WoW.
Now instead of ML issue we have armor stacking issue. According to your logic, having different armor types is the problem. In reality, it's not the problem, the problem is once again player greed that pushes them to search for ways to exploit.

Basically you think the problem is the place where someone can do something about it, that's not what a problem is. It's like saying stairs in a house are a problem cuz a baby could fall down the stairs, so you think you "fix" the problem by putting a fence to prevent the baby from going there. No, the problem is the baby doesn't know how to get down the stairs properly, when the baby learns oh what suddenly there's no problem anymore even if the evil stairs are still there, you can even remove the fence! WOW! Unbelievable. People die every year hit by cars cuz they don't look when they cross the street, cars must be the problem! Remove all cars right now! No the problem is stupid people, it's no different here with ML, and arguably it's EVEN WORSE! Because Blizzard ALREADY PROVIDED THE SOLUTION and people still consented to take the risk to have their shit ninja'd lol. I mean how much more obvious and easy to understand does it even have to get?

In order to claim that ML was at fault, it would need to do either of those things:
1. Give items to someone different than who the masterlooter clicks on to distrubute loot
2. Straight up delete items out of nowhere without the masterlooter's consent
3. Not distribute items even if th masterlooter is clicked the right things
4. Instantly give everything to the masterlooter without this person controling anything
5. Basically act on its own regardless of the masterlooter's commands

A real life example that would suit this. Let's say you buy a knife, start chopping food as you usually do, holding the knife correctly and cutting normal stuff. Then suddenly the knife breaks in your hands while you're using it properly. That's not the user's fault, the knife was poorly made and it broke. However, imagine this scenario where you buy a new knife, you start cooking, you're happy with your brand new knife and start flipping it around cuz it looks shiny, your clumsy hand fail to hold it and it just slips out and stabs you in the foot. That's not the knife's fault, that you being a dumbass. That's the ML situation in WoW, not the first example that you tried to push on people to justify I don't know what.

ML did nothing wrong, players did all the bad. Therefore, players are the problem.

Forget the wrong things you previously believed, learn from this^

[Eosia]

Not actual access to the data, but the fact they removed ML proves the data was significant.

Exactly.

Not at all, you first made the assumption that there is data, without having seen anything, and then made the claim that you knew what the data said.

No, there is no assumption. We know the data exists. Blizzard can track everything that goes on in this game. How do you think they are able to take characters who cheated and walk them back to the state they were in prior? Not to mention the fact that a CS representative back during Burning Crusade hilariously demonstrated Blizzard can see what you typed in guild chat going back at least six months, much to the amusement of the forums.

And I guess you need to work on your literacy skills a bit. I never said I knew what the data said. I just stated Blizzard obviously saw something in it that they did not like. They attempted to correct it in Legion but it obviously did not work as 8.0 removed ML completely. YOU are the one who made the claim to know what the data is. You have yet to provide it which would be a lot more productive than continuing to shoot off your mouth like an entitled child trying to rationalize your version of things when Blizzard already told you no.

Basically you're talking out of your ass and not even providing either logic, analysis, or anything of value, your only goal is trying to prove me wrong by any means necessary including making things up, all that because the logical argument I provide hurts your feelings.

No, see I don't have to prove you "wrong". That's not how this works. You have to prove yourself right. Because right now, the only party that is "right" is Blizzard. They have their data which was the basis for their decision. All you have is your self-serving rationalizations.

[Kralljin]

PL is the fairest it can be: everyone has the exact same chance to get loot from the boss, no bias, just pure chance.

I find it rather funny that people think PL is some sort of super simple system, yet it is obvious that Blizzard had to add a shit ton of mechanics "behind the curtain" to make it work.
The issue with these "hidden" rules is that they can fuck over the player and lead to weird behavior.

First off, it is obvious that there is a "bad luck protection" going on with PL, you didn't get an item on the first boss, so the chance to get one is increased on the boss next, if you didn't get one there, it goes up again.

It has led to the problem that people get really pissed if they happen to loot an item right before the boss where they want to loot one.
Happens in my raid constantly, we're at Glory of Azshara and suddenly the Melees get super pissed because they looted an item here and their chances for the Coral Trinket from Ashvane drops into almost nothingness.

Solution?
If people killed like ~2-3 Bosses without getting loot, they want to pass until you're at the boss where they need something, which is obviously pretty bad if you actually need those people in order to kill those bosses inbetween.
So, those people have to screw their own progress for the sake of the raid, good system.

Second, random Titanforging.

Multiple times mentioned in this thread, a Ring / Trinket / whatever might be bad for you, you want to trade it, but you can't because it Titanforged, you now got a useless titanforged item rotting your bag.
You are pissed because you got a useless titanforge, others are pissed because you can't trade it.

Third, Trade rules.
It started off simple: If you have an item equal Ilvl equipped, you can trade it.
That rule was already weird with certain items such as Rings / Trinkets, if you had only one "good" ring that would allow you to trade a second one of same ilvl, you would have to first equip the ring you already have in both slots, else you couldn't trade the second one.
Especially good in a world where the value of a ring wildly vary due Sockets being totally OP on Rings.

Then, these utterly insane Trinket loot rules.
There are currently 5(!) different trinket categories that might keep you from trading trinkets, you need not just one of the same ilvl, but of the same category as well.
Want to trade a tank trinket? Need one first.

Like, the "ilvl rule" was at least simple to grasp, but it just shows how the PL system makes everything so much more complicated for both dev and player in order to avoid "abuse".

Lastly,
to "improve" your raid, the RL has to sometimes take items away from people.
Here's how it went for me:
We were neckdeep into EP mythic Progress, but i still had a Heroic weapon.
Now, we kill Leviathan Mythic, a healer (that already had a 445 weapon) got the Dagger, which was BiS for him, with a socket, he was obviously happy, but he had to trade it because i, as dps, still had a heroic weapon and obviously needed the upgrade.

Sorry, but that simply sucks, having to hand over an upgrade because it's a bigger upgrade for someone else is just shit.
So thanks to PL, our RL had to take away items from people to improve the raid, rather than handing it straight to someone.

To quote my RL "ML was more work, but at least i didn't had to take items away from people".

The attempt to create the "perfect system" very often just leads to creating a perfect mess.

No, see I don't have to prove you "wrong". That's not how this works. You have to prove yourself right. Because right now, the only party that is "right" is Blizzard. They have their data which was the basis for their decision. All you have is your self-serving rationalizations.

Simply because Blizzards data reveals something as an issue, doesn't mean Blizzard does the right thing to fix it or that the alternative improves the situation.

Example: Legion PvP templates.
Blizzard thought that would be the perfect solution, so anyone could enjoy PvP without having to grind days / weeks for PvP gear in order to compete.
Well, see where the Templates are now, lasted exactly one expansion because the dropoff from WoD to Legion in terms of PvP participation was massive.

Sometimes, you just have to accept that there is no "perfect solution" and that you have to choose between evils.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Exactly.



No, there is no assumption. We know the data exists. Blizzard can track everything that goes on in this game. How do you think they are able to take characters who cheated and walk them back to the state they were in prior? Not to mention the fact that a CS representative back during Burning Crusade hilariously demonstrated Blizzard can see what you typed in guild chat going back at least six months, much to the amusement of the forums.

And I guess you need to work on your literacy skills a bit. I never said I knew what the data said. I just stated Blizzard obviously saw something in it that they did not like. They attempted to correct it in Legion but it obviously did not work as 8.0 removed ML completely. YOU are the one who made the claim to know what the data is. You have yet to provide it which would be a lot more productive than continuing to shoot off your mouth like an entitled child trying to rationalize your version of things when Blizzard already told you no.



No, see I don't have to prove you "wrong". That's not how this works. You have to prove yourself right. Because right now, the only party that is "right" is Blizzard. They have their data which was the basis for their decision. All you have is your self-serving rationalizations.

Read the rest of the post you quoted from, it explains why you're wrong.

BTW, removing ML doesn't make Blizzard right and it doesn't even make your point right in any way shape or form. All it does is show what they thought were best to stop the problematic players from continuing their bad actions. It does not, in any imaginable way, prove that the feature was at fault. So relying on it does nothing for your argument.

[Huzzaa]

@Kralljin

I'm gonna call it here, reading NabyBro's posts is a waste of time. (I went through his history earlier)

I was going to straw his own strawman up but it's pointless, you won't convince him. Neither will he convince us and the examples these kind of people bring up are often out of this world.

His example of 1st to 2nd to 3rd, whatever(I don't even remember anymore, I just ignored him after his latest in this thread) is something that barely, if ever, happens. Period.

These examples of how PL made life better for these pseudo-problematic occasions are ridiculous.

The kind of problems these people face are the kind where they themselves can't be arsed to spend the time to move on from the PUG world and find themselves a guild or a group of friends to play with.

Point being, they were a non-issue for everyone else apart the few rare random groups where the loot rules were deliberately kept vague in order to ninja.
Any group where you asked the loot rules and got them pointed out by the group leader, meant that they were actionable against if they broke them. All you had to do, was report it.


Blizzard catered to this mess because the majority are just that lazy and to cut costs on CS. Which is shameful. But fixable. You can keep that pain in the ass system and allow organized groups continue with the old way... Why not?

[Eosia]

Read the rest of the post you quoted from, it explains why you're wrong.

No, it doesn't. It does not prove anything. We've already been through this... rational < empirical.

BTW, removing ML doesn't make Blizzard right and it doesn't even make your point right in any way shape or form. All it does is show what they thought were best to stop the problematic players from continuing their bad actions. It does not, in any imaginable way, prove that the feature was at fault. So relying on it does nothing for your argument.

It makes them right in their mind... and that is all that counts since it is their game. Don't like it? Cancel and go play something else. ML is gone and not coming back.

Simply because Blizzards data reveals something as an issue, doesn't mean Blizzard does the right thing to fix it or that the alternative improves the situation.

Example: Legion PvP templates.
Blizzard thought that would be the perfect solution, so anyone could enjoy PvP without having to grind days / weeks for PvP gear in order to compete.
Well, see where the Templates are now, lasted exactly one expansion because the dropoff from WoD to Legion in terms of PvP participation was massive.

Sometimes, you just have to accept that there is no "perfect solution" and that you have to choose between evils.

That stat templates are gone, but the ability ones are still there. And those will not go away because they solve a problem that has caused uproars repeatedly since Burning Crusade.

[Kralljin]

It makes them right in their mind... and that is all that counts since it is their game. Don't like it? Cancel and go play something else. ML is gone and not coming back.

Oh fuck me.
Is this really an argument?

Like seriously, i gotta remember this one whenever someone criticizes anything within WoW: Blizzard thinks it's better, what you (or any other player) think(s) is irrelevant.

That stat templates are gone, but the ability ones are still there. And those will not go away because they solve a problem that has caused uproars repeatedly since Burning Crusade.

These have been a thing since WoD.

That people without gear got shat on in PvP has also caused uproars since Vanilla, yet Blizzard had to dial their "solution" back for some reason.
Which makes me think...did that make them wrong in their mind? Didn't you say that the only thing which matters is that Blizzard is right in their mind?

[Eosia]

These have been a thing since WoD.

That people without gear got shat on in PvP has also caused uproars since Vanilla, yet Blizzard had to dial their "solution" back for some reason.
Which makes me think...did that make them wrong in their mind? Didn't you say that the only thing which matters is that Blizzard is right in their mind?

No.. the nerfing of an ability because it is too strong in PvP or PvE and results in it being wrecked on the other side. Been a problem since at least December of 2006 when Marksman Hunters got castrated because of clothie tears in AV just prior to Burning Crusade's launch when everyone was grinding for Welfare Warlord gear. It has happened several times over the years.

Now they just have a template that says Ability X does 100% in PvP but maybe only does 95% in PvP. They can adjust the template so if they need to nerf it for PvP, they can drop it down to like 90% but still leave it doing full damage in PvE.

[Garymorilix]

I find it rather funny that people think PL is some sort of super simple system, yet it is obvious that Blizzard had to add a shit ton of mechanics "behind the curtain" to make it work.
The issue with these "hidden" rules is that they can fuck over the player and lead to weird behavior.

First off, it is obvious that there is a "bad luck protection" going on with PL, you didn't get an item on the first boss, so the chance to get one is increased on the boss next, if you didn't get one there, it goes up again.

It has led to the problem that people get really pissed if they happen to loot an item right before the boss where they want to loot one.
Happens in my raid constantly, we're at Glory of Azshara and suddenly the Melees get super pissed because they looted an item here and their chances for the Coral Trinket from Ashvane drops into almost nothingness.

Solution?
If people killed like ~2-3 Bosses without getting loot, they want to pass until you're at the boss where they need something, which is obviously pretty bad if you actually need those people in order to kill those bosses inbetween.
So, those people have to screw their own progress for the sake of the raid, good system.

Second, random Titanforging.

Multiple times mentioned in this thread, a Ring / Trinket / whatever might be bad for you, you want to trade it, but you can't because it Titanforged, you now got a useless titanforged item rotting your bag.
You are pissed because you got a useless titanforge, others are pissed because you can't trade it.

Third, Trade rules.
It started off simple: If you have an item equal Ilvl equipped, you can trade it.
That rule was already weird with certain items such as Rings / Trinkets, if you had only one "good" ring that would allow you to trade a second one of same ilvl, you would have to first equip the ring you already have in both slots, else you couldn't trade the second one.
Especially good in a world where the value of a ring wildly vary due Sockets being totally OP on Rings.

Then, these utterly insane Trinket loot rules.
There are currently 5(!) different trinket categories that might keep you from trading trinkets, you need not just one of the same ilvl, but of the same category as well.
Want to trade a tank trinket? Need one first.

Like, the "ilvl rule" was at least simple to grasp, but it just shows how the PL system makes everything so much more complicated for both dev and player in order to avoid "abuse".

Lastly,
to "improve" your raid, the RL has to sometimes take items away from people.
Here's how it went for me:
We were neckdeep into EP mythic Progress, but i still had a Heroic weapon.
Now, we kill Leviathan Mythic, a healer (that already had a 445 weapon) got the Dagger, which was BiS for him, with a socket, he was obviously happy, but he had to trade it because i, as dps, still had a heroic weapon and obviously needed the upgrade.

Sorry, but that simply sucks, having to hand over an upgrade because it's a bigger upgrade for someone else is just shit.
So thanks to PL, our RL had to take away items from people to improve the raid, rather than handing it straight to someone.

To quote my RL "ML was more work, but at least i didn't had to take items away from people".

The attempt to create the "perfect system" very often just leads to creating a perfect mess.



Simply because Blizzards data reveals something as an issue, doesn't mean Blizzard does the right thing to fix it or that the alternative improves the situation.

Example: Legion PvP templates.
Blizzard thought that would be the perfect solution, so anyone could enjoy PvP without having to grind days / weeks for PvP gear in order to compete.
Well, see where the Templates are now, lasted exactly one expansion because the dropoff from WoD to Legion in terms of PvP participation was massive.

Sometimes, you just have to accept that there is no "perfect solution" and that you have to choose between evils.

Provide your evidence for you bad luck protection please.

Cuz i've done 5 boss raids with like 7 loots in a row (coins) and 7 boss raids with 10 roll (normal + coin) and zero item.
Months apart ofc.

This is fanfiction as long as I'm concerned. Also, has nothing to do with loot distribution at all.

Titanforging, again, has nothing to do with loot distribution.
Also, I suppose we talk about 450/455 forging. Non-issue.
Firstly: It's extremely rare, I play 3 chars daily and only have ONE 455 item from mythic chest. Other may have better luck. Doesnt matter.
Secondly, most importantly: it doesn't take away loot from others. In other words: it doesn't halt the progression of other players. It's your item.
You also have to look at the situation the other way around: YOU got lucky, YOU get to keep it, nobody can FORCE you to give it up.
Cuz if ML was a thing (or you could trade it) then guilds would just guild trip you into giving it up.
Also, most the time a +15ilvl is a dps increase for everyone. There are few specs out there that have useless secondary stat combos.

LASTLY

That's the exact scenario where the system protects you from when it comes to titanforging.

Sorry, but that simply sucks, having to hand over an upgrade because it's a bigger upgrade for someone else is just shit.

Oh no shit. Like, isn't that what i've been mouthing about this whole time? So you do get it.
Thing is, the fact that he HAD to hand it over is the issue here. It's called peer pressure.
The system itself protects you from this (as the item is IN YOUR BAG, what can they do) so I hope it was a mutual agreement.

The exact same thing would've happened in your case with ML. Not a lick of difference. So I don't see the issue here. Unless ofc it was a forced exchange.

[CrawlFromThePit]

No, it doesn't. It does not prove anything. We've already been through this... rational < empirical.



It makes them right in their mind... and that is all that counts since it is their game. Don't like it? Cancel and go play something else. ML is gone and not coming back.



That stat templates are gone, but the ability ones are still there. And those will not go away because they solve a problem that has caused uproars repeatedly since Burning Crusade.

When there's no empirical you gotta use your rational.
Blizzard is not in this idiotic debate, they don't have to pick a side and like I said, removing ML doesn't mean they pick your side or that your side is right. It only means that was the most efficient use of their time to act on this issue. You really think they're gonna tell players they're garbage for ninja looting or too stupid to use personal loot which was already available to them to avoid every other issue coming from ninja players? There's not one solution that makes them politically correct, they are forced to make you believe ML was a problem in itself an you just gobble that up as if it was a truth and you COMPLETELY REFUSE to think further than what you're given.

You know what I said is true but you've been fighting against it for so long now that you'd rather say stuff that makes no sense until we both get tired of talking about it instead of just admiting you're wrong. Perfectly fine with me, you're just going to be #892347983 who does that on this forum.

[Kralljin]

No.. the nerfing of an ability because it is too strong in PvP or PvE and results in it being wrecked on the other side. Been a problem since at least December of 2006 when Marksman Hunters got castrated because of clothie tears in AV just prior to Burning Crusade's launch when everyone was grinding for Welfare Warlord gear. It has happened several times over the years.

Now they just have a template that says Ability X does 100% in PvP but maybe only does 95% in PvP. They can adjust the template so if they need to nerf it for PvP, they can drop it down to like 90% but still leave it doing full damage in PvE.

As i said, they've been doing that since WoD, it wasn't tied to the Template system of Legion in any shape or form.

Provide your evidence for you bad luck protection please.

Are you playing WoW?
Like, do an M+0, you'll find out that for some reason, you'll get one item per instance on average.
On average, you'll also get like 3 items per EP clear.
Sometimes you may get four, sometimes you get 3 and *very rarely* you'll get two items from two consecutive bosses.

It uses the same system as coins, the fact that you even seriously question this is baffling.

Titanforging, again, has nothing to do with loot distribution.

Personal loot has a hard rule regarding trading based on Ilvl.
Titanforging affects Ilvl.

Conclusion: Titanforging affects PL based on the trading option.

To test this: Without PL, the described issue above would not occur.

Firstly: It's extremely rare, I play 3 chars daily and only have ONE 455 item from mythic chest. Other may have better luck. Doesnt matter.

How many 455 you have is irrelevant.
By the way, the M+ weekly chest is utterly irrelevant to this discussion because said loot was never group based to begin with.

You also have to look at the situation the other way around: YOU got lucky, YOU get to keep it, nobody can FORCE you to give it up.

Go ahead, do that.
Want to know what will follow?
Drama.

What was PL supposed to avoid?
Drama.

The exact same thing would've happened in your case with ML. Not a lick of difference. So I don't see the issue here. Unless ofc it was a forced exchange.

You're wrong.
ML is that the ML decides who gets loot, that's the fundamental function of the system.
You don't "own" an item until you receive it, that's ML.
PL however, you have to give up an item that you already received, that is "your item" after all, you looted it.

PL and its trading rules however, randomnly distribute loot, then you'll have to redistribute loot based on these trade restriction.

The fact you cannot see your hypocrisy within this argument is utterly baffling.

PL_does_not_protect_you from this social pressure unless you cannot trade the item (which is random due to Titanforging), if your guild agrees that they will trade loot based on value, you'll abide by this system or have drama on your hands (which is identical to the decision to use ML).
The sole difference will that you have the item in inventory, but you still get drama on your hands.

And if your guild was going to decide not to use PL but go with a random loot system to begin, you could just use Group Loot.

A lot of Guilds that previously used ML, now function under a restricted ML based on the PL trade rules.
What an improvement.