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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Is Anduin one of the guys who "most" contributed to it?
    Sure he didn't punish Greymane and Rogers, but he wasn't like "let's burn this city and start a war to ensure there won't be a war"
    To be fair the Casus Belli was already in play by time of the Burning of Teldrassil. I mean he sent spies into Silithus as reconnaissance and with orders to hinder the Horde's actions in the area as preparatory measures for an assault before shifting most of the Night Elven army there after believing the Horde were going to set up there first which Saurfang exploited for the attack on Darnassus. He then immediately responded to that by sending most of Stormwind's forces north for a beach assault on Lordaeron and a siege he would have lost if not for Jaina literally popping up out of nowhere. We could also consider his agreement of letting Calia attend the Forsaken Gathering and attempting to get people to defect as another contribution to the war tbh.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Is Anduin one of the guys who "most" contributed to it?
    Sure he didn't punish Greymane and Rogers, but he wasn't like "let's burn this city and start a war to ensure there won't be a war"
    I mean, he's the king. His is the last word, and if he let himself be convinced by others crying for war, it's his responsibility. It wasn't like Genn went off and just started attacking the Horde or anything - they all waited for Anduin's okay.

    The Horde didn't attack anyone. They harvested azerite, and the Alliance decided that it was time for a preemptive strike. THEY started the war.

  3. #23
    Have no fear, we will all be Veterans of the Fifth War by 2023.

  4. #24
    Why can't blizzard just write a full on faction war of Alliance vs. Horde. Why do they always have to make it horde vs horde with alliance on the side? All this does is make Alliance upset they have to work with the Horde to solve their own problems and the Horde upset because they have to kill their own and feel like traitors by working with the Alliance. I feel like it would even be easier to write a regular Horde vs. Alliance story and it wouldn't be so divisive.

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    He then immediately responded to that by sending most of Stormwind's forces north for a beach assault on Lordaeron and a siege he would have lost if not for Jaina literally popping up out of nowhere.
    Well, after having one of your allies/subject cities burned to the ground with innocents inside, most people would retaliate. Even if they suck at tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    We could also consider his agreement of letting Calia attend the Forsaken Gathering and attempting to get people to defect as another contribution to the war tbh.
    Blanduin didn't ask Calia to make the Forsaken defect. That was something she decided in the middle of the meeting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I mean, he's the king. His is the last word, and if he let himself be convinced by others crying for war, it's his responsibility. It wasn't like Genn went off and just started attacking the Horde or anything - they all waited for Anduin's okay.

    The Horde didn't attack anyone. They harvested azerite, and the Alliance decided that it was time for a preemptive strike. THEY started the war.
    Greymane and Rogers did attack the Horde in Stormheim (Sure, we learn that Sylvanas was up to her usual shenanigans but they didn't know at the time). Anduin's blame is to not having scolded them at all after they got back. Specially when fighting the Legion.
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  6. #26
    Keyboard Turner Protovoid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Why can't blizzard just write a full on faction war of Alliance vs. Horde. Why do they always have to make it horde vs horde with alliance on the side? All this does is make Alliance upset they have to work with the Horde to solve their own problems and the Horde upset because they have to kill their own and feel like traitors by working with the Alliance. I feel like it would even be easier to write a regular Horde vs. Alliance story and it wouldn't be so divisive.
    I believe that would require players on both side to realize that if you want to tell a good story then each faction needs to have wins and losses that properly reflect in the actual game world and don't just end up with a scolding. Problem is everyone thinks there has to be perfect balance...we lost a city so you have to lose a city or 2 of our faction leaders got killed or badly injured so do yours.

    Difficult story telling within a MMORPG I feel at least.

  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Well, after having one of your allies/subject cities burned to the ground with innocents inside, most people would retaliate. Even if they suck at tactics.

    Blanduin didn't ask Calia to make the Forsaken defect. That was something she decided in the middle of the meeting.

    Greymane and Rogers did attack the Horde in Stormheim (Sure, we learn that Sylvanas was up to her usual shenanigans but they didn't know at the time). Anduin's blame is to not having scolded them at all after they got back. Specially when fighting the Legion.
    I understand that completely and even give props to Anduin for having the initiative to retaliate as quickly as he did after what happened, especially after Varian sorta ignored Theramore after something similar happened and didn't respond in any real fashion till the Pandaria campaign, but we are discussing how he was a major contributor to the war and immediately attacking another capital city is kinda major example of continuing a war.

    I also know Anduin didn't ask Calia to do carry out the subterfuge but agreeing to allow a displaced monarch to engage in negotiations/talks of diplomacy with a group from the Kingdom she belonged to isn't really the greatest of ideas not to mention confrontational in concept.
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  8. #28
    Herald of the Titans Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    I understand that completely and even give props to Anduin for having the initiative to retaliate as quickly as he did after what happened, especially after Varian sorta ignored Theramore after something similar happened and didn't respond in any real fashion till the Pandaria campaign, but we are discussing how he was a major contributor to the war and immediately attacking another capital city is kinda major example of continuing a war.

    I also know Anduin didn't ask Calia to do carry out the subterfuge but agreeing to allow a displaced monarch to engage in negotiations/talks of diplomacy with a group from the Kingdom she belonged to isn't really the greatest of ideas not to mention confrontational in concept.
    Anduin isn't the brightest lad out there with the whole Calia business.
    But not retaliating after Darnassus would be disastrous for his position as High King of the Alliance.
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Greymane and Rogers did attack the Horde in Stormheim (Sure, we learn that Sylvanas was up to her usual shenanigans but they didn't know at the time). Anduin's blame is to not having scolded them at all after they got back. Specially when fighting the Legion.
    True, but that wasn't really war, just the usual skirmishes between Horde and Alliance that have been going on since... well, forever. What happened in Pandaria wasn't really war either, was it. Not in the way BFA showed war anyway.

  10. #30
    The Unstoppable Force Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Why do they write it the way they do?

    Because the playerbase.
    They can't do a legitimate war narrative because one side has to be the losers, and guess which faction will cry Muh Faction Favoritism...?

    Which is why they should bury the narrative and make it about splinter factions if they want Orc v Human-type stories. As much as players claim to like the War in Warcraft, it's only when they don't feel that they're playing on the losing side.

    Since they did start to communicate more about the narrative and lay it out long before we see it after the crapshoot that was Cataclysm (and a hilariously dropped ball in WoD), they should be more than capable of causing convincing turmoil that doesn't divide the playerbase.
    If you or a loved one wants a Hamster (any kind), consider going with a custom cage. Most of the retail cages, even the biggest, are simply too small for the hamster's well-being. There are far cheaper solutions using IKEA furniture, for example, that also results in a more stylish habitat that's bigger and easier to match with your decor! I use the IKEA Detolf + KALLAX solution! Check it out! Another clever and even cheaper solution is converting the IKEA SAMLA Bin!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Why do they write it the way they do?

    Because the playerbase.
    They can't do a legitimate war narrative because one side has to be the losers, and guess which faction will cry Muh Faction Favoritism...?
    Alliance cries about HORDE BIAS about literally everything (latest example being a thread complaining that Alliance having to run a dungeon to unlock Dark Iron Dwarves is HORDE BIAS) and has done so for years. Making them lose a faction war wouldn't change anything in that regard. Blizzard wrote it the way they did because they wanted to. Particularly because they wanted to grace the world with more of their fortune cookie "wisdom" about the power of friendship that they pretend is enlightened.
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    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Greymane and Rogers did attack the Horde in Stormheim (Sure, we learn that Sylvanas was up to her usual shenanigans but they didn't know at the time). Anduin's blame is to not having scolded them at all after they got back. Specially when fighting the Legion.
    yes, they did. they knew from the PlCh returning an intercepted missive in azuna.
    we learn post that attack the alarming nature of her activities through the involvement of odyn.
    but not only are they justified by sylvanas' breaking of the horde's agreement to the vanilla treaty, and apparently instigating the mid-wrath cold war, she has no right to assume that anyone will hold a treaty with Her after attacking arathi without provocation.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by sillag View Post
    this is what blizzard's writers are retardedly trying to say but it doesn't work. this would only work if the races who actually currently are being fucked over by the cycle decided to abandon it. like if the night elves and zandalari or worgen and forsaken teamed up and said "ok we're ending this cycle here and now." and went to fight against n'zoth or whatever. thus inspiring the other races to follow suit because if they can do it the rest of us can

    when its the humans and orcs deciding that war is over and you are all gonna have to roll with it you end up with the situation we are in. the orc and human bourgeoisie have decided on everyone's behalf that the current state of affairs is fine. too bad about your capital cities and kings who got murdered and all those people who got burned to death. us humans who never showed up to help and us orcs whose city is still prosperous and intact have decided that its time to abandon the cycle. what you don't agree? damn didn't realize you were consumed by vengeance bro.

    it would be so simple for any one of you to write a better story than blizzard's.
    Yeh there would be riots on the streets and a complete uproar by common folk if Anduin just decided by himself to end the war just like that. Just because he is king doesn't mean he will stay king if those under/beside him think he is betraying the Alliance. That's one thing I don't like about wows story telling.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2019-10-04 at 11:42 PM.

  14. #34
    Well it seems like Tyrande and the like will be picked up on in the future. We'll have to see. For the most part even those who want to fight can't do much considering both armies were ground to dust by the faction war. We had enough for one battle, scraping the bottom of the barrel, that would not have left anybody alive to fight N'zoth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    yes, they did. they knew from the PlCh returning an intercepted missive in azuna.
    we learn post that attack the alarming nature of her activities through the involvement of odyn.
    but not only are they justified by sylvanas' breaking of the horde's agreement to the vanilla treaty, and apparently instigating the mid-wrath cold war, she has no right to assume that anyone will hold a treaty with Her after attacking arathi without provocation.
    As usual in reply to this fascinating story of yours:
    1. provide source for Azsuna happening before Stormheim.
    2. provide source for the Alliance version of that Azsuna questline being canon, because it's mutually exclusive with the Horde version.
    3. try to explain why Genn says multiple times after the attack that he has no idea what Sylvanas is up to.

    At least the bit about "Vanilla treaty" is new, but I have no idea what you're talking about there. And mid-Wrath cold war? Mid-Wrath was a period of open war... And it was declared by Varian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Yeh there would be riots on the streets and a complete uproar by common folk if Anduin just decided by himself to end the war just like that. Just because he is king doesn't mean he will stay king if those under/beside him think he is betraying the Alliance. That's one thing I don't like about wows story telling.
    very true. unfortunately because blizzard's writers are less competent than 10 year olds in english lit class the entire fabric of the universe will warp around making sure anduin is right. characters brains are reprogrammed by the narrative to suit the main characters' goals just like they lobotomized the entire horde to make teldrassil happen. because our writers don't know how to write a story where events naturally follow on from previous events.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Well it seems like Tyrande and the like will be picked up on in the future. We'll have to see. For the most part even those who want to fight can't do much considering both armies were ground to dust by the faction war. We had enough for one battle, scraping the bottom of the barrel, that would not have left anybody alive to fight N'zoth.
    ppl keep saying both armies were ground to nothing but this is complete bullshit. the horde loyalists had an army that alleria figured was strong enough to take on n'zoth. the alliance and horde rebels had an army big enough to have a shot at beating them in a siege of a huge fortress city. thats 2 fuck-off huge armies that are still 100% intact. minus the 5 sylvanas loyalists dumb enough not to pinky-promise baine they would be good again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    like how are u gonna sit there saying "oh the alliance and horde dont even have the manpower to fight eachother anymore even if they wanted to" when the last cinematic was literally the alliance and horde armies about to fight eachother

  17. #37
    The faction war was inconvincing to begin with.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by sillag View Post
    ppl keep saying both armies were ground to nothing but this is complete bullshit. the horde loyalists had an army that alleria figured was strong enough to take on n'zoth. the alliance and horde rebels had an army big enough to have a shot at beating them in a siege of a huge fortress city. thats 2 fuck-off huge armies that are still 100% intact. minus the 5 sylvanas loyalists dumb enough not to pinky-promise baine they would be good again.
    They looked like they had an army that could handle N'zoth. Peek behind the curtain in the loyalist version and it's a very different story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  19. #39
    The problem is that they have several writers all trying to write a different story and not coordinating with eachother.
    This story is a complete mess, but most of the stories in this in a vacuum were actually okay. Saurfangs story was interesting if it was the only thing you knew about wow, but because it completely destroys so many other stories i hate it. The zandalar story was good, i havent done the kultiras stuff but it looked interesting from afar, and the raids have been interesting.

    Its just that some of the threads completely shit on the others. The ending of the faction war felt EXTREMELY premature, we are still doing warfronts in current content but we are supposed to be at peace? too much of the content of this expansion has been about the faction war and now it is all narratively completely obsolete? its the wrong time.

    The faction war ending was pure distilled garbage. It was the biggest let down in wow i have seen since kaelthas getting hit with the villian bat.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    They looked like they had an army that could handle N'zoth. Peek behind the curtain in the loyalist version and it's a very different story.
    Which Nobbel video did you pull this nonsense out of? The patch says over and over that Sylvanas has the largest army and we've known of the Alliance troop shortage since Lost Honor.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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