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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    It's not bait. The FF XIV community is just extremely defensive. They can't allow any criticisms, even founded ones like the obvious combat clunkiness.

    But anyone who have ever played anything else knows that combat isn't the greatest point of XIV for sure. It's not bad, but it's also far from being smooth.
    I love XIV but I gotta agree. Once I said that it feels like all I do is log in to jump into the queue and my entire FC lit up insinuating I was just being dumb and had no idea how to play the game. XIV does have a better community in general than other MMOs but if you provoke them right, they can be just as nasty.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Forteofgray View Post
    I love XIV but I gotta agree. Once I said that it feels like all I do is log in to jump into the queue and my entire FC lit up insinuating I was just being dumb and had no idea how to play the game. XIV does have a better community in general than other MMOs but if you provoke them right, they can be just as nasty.
    The thing in FF is there is a huge variety of content. If you are only doing roulettes/instances it's cause that is what you want to do.

    I find it strange they would say things like you don't know how to play, unless you actually haven't explored all the game has to offer. It does have a lot to do, if you want to do it.

  3. #403
    In reply to point 1: Ability pruning. ......why the fuck has no game, even WoW, embraced WoW's PVP Talent system as its primary ability list.

    There a ton of different abilities, they can keep adding them, and it doesnt matter how many there are because you only pick like three of them and theyre utility crap not tied into your base rotation.

    WHY CANT PALADINS HAVE EXORCISM AS AN OPTIONAL SPELL

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    There a ton of different abilities, they can keep adding them, and it doesnt matter how many there are because you only pick like three of them and theyre utility crap not tied into your base rotation.

    WHY CANT PALADINS HAVE EXORCISM AS AN OPTIONAL SPELL
    Exorcism wouldn't be just utility though, that's a straight up damage spell. Not that it really matters because that kind of a system would also fall prey to min/maxing meta game pretty fast.

  5. #405
    I don't think that FFXIV necessarily needs to prune abilities so much as they should be merged into one another. Much like as in PvP, combo abilities should be tied into one button.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    So to fill the downtime created by completing most of the activities in 8.2, as well as to clear the bad taste playing wow classic has left in my mouth, I decided to jump in and try out FF14. I've always been a great fan of FF games, so the thought of playing those old school jobs in an mmo setting and riding chocobos seemed kind of cool to me. One of my mates also plays it which gave me an additional incentive to try it.

    I'm a person who gets a kick out of leveling things up, collecting stuff and all that, so every game that allows you to do that will provide me with some sort of entertainment. And I had a fair share of fun playing FF14 btw, about 3 weeks of fun to be precise. There's a lot of good things in the game, and overall it is an mmo, and everyone who enjoys that kind of gameplay will enjoy it to an extent. In this thread I will be focusing on the negatives, but that does not mean I hate the game. I wanted to make this very clear because fanboys are often unable to understand that.

    At some point however, all the gameplay problems started to mar my experience to the point where I no longer feel the need to log in to play anymore. I stopped playing the game 5 levels away from the cap (at 75) because it's just unpleasant to play it now. It also made me realize how much I value some aspects of a game, ones that I normally don't think about. With that said, let me enumerate the biggest problems I encountered.

    1. The combat

    ...is awful. Much like Rift, Swtor and all the other usual suspects in the past, it just feels clunky. It's one of those things that are hard to put into words. It's just not as smooth and fluid as you'd like. It feels like there are unnecessary delays between you using a skill on your keyboard and the character actually executing the command.

    The other thing is that the rotations are extremely bloated as you advance your level. FF14 is a good example of what happens when you don't do the so called "ability pruning" that all the elitist players criticise so much in wow. At max level, or even slightly below the max level, your rotations include about 20-25 skills. And that is not including AOE skills, utility skills etc. It's just the single target rotation. I'm sure someone will argue that using 25 skills in a rotation is fun, but to me it's really not. It makes it hard to pick up a class because unless you're a gaming professor you will have a hard time learning it. It also makes it ridiculously hard to optimize your gameplay, let alone min-max, which is downright impossible. Using your actual rotation on anything outside of a dungeon boss? You wish. You'll just have to settle for using a couple random skills, using a fraction of your potential on those non-boss things. As far as the number of skills, combat below level 50 at best feels okay, afterwards it's just too much filler stuff in your rotation.

    The funny thing is I didn't even think combat would matter so much, because I am mostly interested in other areas of an mmo, but it turns out that a bad enough combat system can turn you away from a game even if you aren't combat oriented.

    2. Leveling and alts

    MSQ Leveling is a bit weird, but it's fast and varied, which is good. Myself I am not a plot-person so I don't care at all what the game's story is about and thus I skipped every cutscene ever. Somewhat enjoyed all the leveling of my main job still, because at least it took me around the world, through all the zones, and it was close to the questing/leveling experience I know from other games. No problems here.

    However, the real problem is the leveling of your alt jobs. Now some people will probably scratch their heads and start telling me how fast it is and all that...okay, I don't disagree, it may be fast, but fast does not equal entertaining or interesting. Quite the contrary, leveling alt jobs is pure pain in FF14. You use your main character for all of the jobs, and you can only do quests once per character, which means that you are pretty much left with the following methods for leveling up your alt jobs/classes:

    -levequests (incredibly boring repetable quests, which are also capped hourly to make it even worse and stop you from doing them all the time)
    -doing dungeons over and over (only really viable for tank and healer jobs)
    -a dungeon crawler mini game that you can do over and over for levels

    While those methods may be quick, they are an absolute and complete pain. I managed to level an alt tank job to a level of about 40 or so through dungeons which is where I felt I am done with it and can take no more of the same dungeons over and over. The whole system seems to be designed with blocking grinds in mind. You are supposed to just do a daily roulette once per day and level your alt job that way, over the course of like 100 days.

    3. Queues are ridiculous, even during the peak hours.

    It's no surprise that playing DPS results in long queue times, but even trying to queue up for a trial from the current expansion, that is required for a MSQ quest can take up to an HOUR. The game is only playable if you have a friend who can tank/heal for you, otherwise you have to wait for like an hour, and your best bet is to just do something else (but that something else can't be playing an alt job, because the best way to level that up is doing dungeons, and you can't queue for another thing at the same time).

    It's pretty funny, because while I never believed all the talk about FF14 killing WoW, all the voices make you think and consider the possibility that the game is pretty active. Again, reality turns out to be different than the forum rhetoric. If you have to wait up to 1 hour in queue as a dps for current obligatory MSQ content, that means barely anyone is playing it.

    4. Professions are done horribly

    So with this one I don't have much hands-on experience, because after researching how those things work in FF14 I decided not to even try. Profession skills such as mining, cooking etc. work as a separate class, so they lower your level to 1. It is an interesting concept, but also means you have to switch jobs whenever you want to partake in those activities (because you will get one shot by any mob otherwise). To pile up onto that, you have mining rotations, which you have to use correctly, or you risk failing the mining activity (I mean really?).

    There were some other minor things that got on my nerves, many of those probably more subjective so I won't be talking about them too much. Dungeon encounter design, un-obvious boss mechanics, UI bugs, the horrid TRUST system (doing dungeons with NPCs which takes like 1 hour longer than a normal party), retainers instead of a regular deposit place, market interface, confusing housing system.

    In the end...it's just one of those games. It's fun for a while to take a break and play it. It will just make you appreciate and enjoy the proper MMORPG more once you go back to it full time.
    1) Combat:

    there has actually been a lot of ability pruning. There's at least 10 abilities I czn name off the top of my head that don't exist anymore. You didn't get to max level and that kind of causes an issue for combat the way it does in wow. Most classes aim for a certain amount of skill or spell speed to hit an exact number so that the rotation becomes EXTREMELY fluid. Paladin for example gets enough skill speed so that when they get to the point where they use their bleed ability, the previous one fell off less than a second before so have an extremely minimal amount of time that it isn't up. The fluidity example I will use to explain how combat works for most melee is the gunbreaker continuation combo. It's 3 gcd abilities with 3 ogcd abilities in between them. So you end up using 6 abilities within 7 seconds ish which is a vastly larger amount of abilities than wow. But yeah, skill and spell speed make the game much more fluid. The one thing I will say is the somewhat clunky avoiding ground abilities lag but that isn't something that can be avoided. That is an engine thing.

    2) leveling:

    Leveling alts is a joke. You get about a 3rd of a level per dungeon for the max one you are capable of, levequests, beast tribe dailies, side quests, fates, deep dungeons, etc... and thats ignoring roulettes. Your argument of doing the same dungeon over and over to level is lackluster because that's what most people do in almost every mmo of this genre. I mean.. how many times did you do like.. ubrs, black morass, mythic+, for instance to get gear? That's the same thing except instead of leveling the goal is gear.

    3) queue times:

    While I'm not exactly going to argue q times may be ridiculous, that's kind of normal. I've waited in dps q at max level in wow for 30+ minutes before too. Forget mythic plus as a dps.. I was a top 20 m+ monk on my wow server so not only was my raider.io score super high, I was meta AF. I would still spend over an hour a lot of the time applying to multiple runs while I sat fishing. So saying long q times are aweful is a bad argument because that also happens in most of the "holy trinity" games.

    4) Professions:

    I actually hate professions in this game... well.. in all games really.. but thats a huge selling point for a ton of the ffxiv community lol. People love the way professions are in this game. It just isn't for me. You get experience for crafting items, you never have to leave town so the possibility of being one shot isn't a thing. The gathering professions have abilities that make you invisible to monsters so you don't get attacked so there is also no way to be one shot there unless you screw up. The rotations for crafting and gathering is weird to me too, but most people like it apparently.

    You talk.about unobvious encounter mechanics? This game is the most telegraphed one I have ever played until you get to harder raids. You mentioned ui bugs? I've honestly never had a ui bug. Can you elaborate? The trust system was implemented this expansion and is far from perfect, but its meant for people who don't want to wait in the q or want to learn the mechanics without having to deal with the anxiety of failing in front of other people. The reason it takes longer with them is because they don't aoe and they don't do wall to wall pulls. It usually only takes me roughly 30 minutes a run with the trust (and I haven't leveled them). Normal groups usually take 20 on average. So.. if you combine your complaint about 1 hour queues.. a normal group would be an hour and 20 minutes per, vs 30 with the trust. That makes the trust a net increase of almost 3x faster.

    The rest of your things I can't really comment on as I don't usually partake in those aspects of the game.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Subrias View Post
    1) Combat:

    there has actually been a lot of ability pruning. There's at least 10 abilities I czn name off the top of my head that don't exist anymore.
    That didn't solve much though. They remove 2 abilities then add 5 new ones in an expansion.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The thing is that in this case their claim isn't even true.

    Like I said before, XIV's economy is actually extremely broad. Even max level players will still be looking for glamour items, housing items, crafting items, gear for alt jobs, materials for quests, levequest items they don't want to bother crafting and so on.

    Even this late into the expansion I can sell level 70-80 crafting leve items at 500% markups. Housing items for whatever people felt like marking them up for. It's just crazy out there.
    I understand, but I was arguing that even if it was true, it's just something to be expected in a video game. Especially an RPG. I think people tend to forget MMORPGs also need to do video game things and RPG things as well the MMO things. (I also think people forget what those things actually are, but that's another topic.)

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    It's not bait. The FF XIV community is just extremely defensive.
    Every MMORPG community is defensive. Try shitting on WoW in the WoW subforum and people will come after you hard. Nobody likes having people hating on their game.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Every MMORPG community is defensive. Try shitting on WoW in the WoW subforum and people will come after you hard. Nobody likes having people hating on their game.
    There's a big difference between shitting on a game and just stating an observable fact.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Every MMORPG community is defensive. Try shitting on WoW in the WoW subforum and people will come after you hard. Nobody likes having people hating on their game.
    There is literally a thread up in the GD forum about an obviously fake LARP shitting on blizzard that people are debating the merits of its points despite the fact is obviously fake. Wow's reddit spent all week dabbing on suevanas.

    Neither of these things would ever happen if they were related to FFXIV. I don't even know why it's so controversial to point out FFXIV players are hyper defensive here, every other FFXIV fansite basically admits it.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    There is literally a thread up in the GD forum about an obviously fake LARP shitting on blizzard that people are debating the merits of its points despite the fact is obviously fake. Wow's reddit spent all week dabbing on suevanas.

    Neither of these things would ever happen if they were related to FFXIV. I don't even know why it's so controversial to point out FFXIV players are hyper defensive here, every other FFXIV fansite basically admits it.
    Can you provide proof and those fansites?

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Can you provide proof and those fansites?
    What would proof be for you a link?, two, three?

    How could I even prove *some number* of people in a given community have a trait to a level you personally would find compelling? Hell if you haven't noticed this weird near messianic aura Yoshi has among the fans already, you're probably never going to see it.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Every MMORPG community is defensive. Try shitting on WoW in the WoW subforum and people will come after you hard. Nobody likes having people hating on their game.
    every community is full of people who just want to be negative and argue with stuff for the sake of it. every single thread on these forums is proof of that. anything that people enjoy, there is going to be a demographic that comes out of the wild to shit on it even though it's probably just not for them. kinda like the guy who was comparing ESO to XIV adamantly.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    I don't think that FFXIV necessarily needs to prune abilities so much as they should be merged into one another. Much like as in PvP, combo abilities should be tied into one button.
    Yup. I agree with that.

    The combos can go in one button. Gw2 does that too. I think every class has at least 2 combos. It would imediatly free 4 slots.

  16. #416
    Decent? Have you played it? I had a hard time registering the account. It took me half an hour on their morally dead website. The game itself looks like trash. I couldn’t even get to the first quest how dead boring it is.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethas View Post
    Decent? Have you played it? I had a hard time registering the account. It took me half an hour on their morally dead website. The game itself looks like trash. I couldn’t even get to the first quest how dead boring it is.
    Compared to a lot of MMO's I've played in my years, FFXIV is triple A quality, nevermind some hiccups here and there.
    If FFXIV isn't even decent then those other MMO's are straight dumpster material.

    And just FYI, I quit the game two times before I really got into it.

  18. #418
    Exactly, those queues maybe for like 12am-11am anything other than that is highly unlikely. Because roulette includes all dungeons and everyone does them for tomes/exp so even if your dungeon is one that isn't common you'll still be paired with people. Trial roulette also includes all primals, and since titan is a lower lvl one it is more likely to get chosen because the pool of people is larger. I have NEVER ever had a 2hour queue outside of like trying to do some random thing at 4am. And that would have to be somethign not included in the MSQ.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    I just wish they would fix the way they do lvl scaling in low lvl dungeons. Scaling is a good idea but taking 90% of your skill bar away and forcing people into the mmo hell of lvl 10 experience press 3 buttons for 30min is insane and makes it painfull. Just scale the damage and let higher players enjoy the whole skill set. Its not like leveling is competitive.
    No the problem with this is it leads to toxic gameplay of players getting upset when they have new people because they do not have access to later skills. Since FF14 has a lot of direct damage upgrade skills and AoE for some classes is later. It would make the experience for new players horrible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Is this bait? I vastly prefer FFXIV but I can't think of a popular mmo with more 'clunky' combat than FFXIV.
    From the rigid unbending rotations, to the gcd to the weird animation locks. It's basically the opposite of fluid.
    How is a static rotation of 1-2-3 with OGCD skills in anyway "clunky"? Some dps rotations are long yes, but hardly clunky. You can easily focus on the fight instead of your UI unlike many other MMOs. So i think your idea of clunky is off. Do you know what clunky means? Hard to use, weird to understand, gets in the way. A clunky object is awkwardly shaped and heavy. When I think clunky a static rotation is like the last thing that comes to my mind lol

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    When I think clunky a static rotation is like the last thing that comes to my mind lol
    A non-clunky static rotation would be something like this: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,3......... boring yes, clunky no.
    This is what FF has: 1,2,3,4,5,x,y,z,1,2,3,q,r,4,5,x,6,y,f,f,z.... etc. for like 2 mins until the rotation is fully complete.
    Hard to use, weird to understand, atleast for new players
    Besides when people talk about the clunkines in FF, they mean mostly the lack of responsiviness.
    Last edited by zorkuus; 2021-07-14 at 12:31 AM.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    How is a static rotation of 1-2-3 with OGCD skills in anyway "clunky"? Some dps rotations are long yes, but hardly clunky. You can easily focus on the fight instead of your UI unlike many other MMOs. So i think your idea of clunky is off. Do you know what clunky means? Hard to use, weird to understand, gets in the way. A clunky object is awkwardly shaped and heavy. When I think clunky a static rotation is like the last thing that comes to my mind lol
    Shit like slide casting, animation locks, ogcd clipping depending on lag and server ticks, nin playing like basically a separate jo depending on your distance from the server.
    The long rotations are fine on bosses but when you get into add switching or downtime between packs or RP intervals you can be left swinging in the breeze, he some classes have buttons specifically for this issue.
    Then there are design choices like DWD and assassinate or autocrossbow/scattershot being separate binds.

    Further, I was only using clunky because the person you responded to did, hence the inverted commas. I would say janky is more apt.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

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