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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Literally irrelevant. Waiting for, at most a lot of time, 15 minutes for a queue isn't a block. I will repeat this again and read it very slowly. A block is something where you can't progress at all until the next part unlocks in the game. An example of an ACTUAL block is when you weren't allowed to progress the covenant campaign until the next reset.
    I'm not sure why you think that the part that you're dismissing is irrelevant, when it's really close to the actual problem being discussed.

    Maybe a more sound comparison will help a little bit more? Take WoW on one hand. Bastion in Shadowlands. The end of the leveling experience in that zone literally drops you right in front of the dungeon entrance, unlocks that dungeon, and then shortly afterwards, you can leave that zone to continue on with WoW's main story as it takes you into the next zone. You don't have to have done Necrotic Wake to advance into Ardenweald. You can start doing the Ardenweald story while you're in the queue for Necrotic Wake. There is no point in that sequence of events where the main story stops progressing.

    Now, let's take FF14 on the other hand. The second arc of Stormblood. Right before you get to the major city hub of that expansion, you're on a ship that falls under attack, and that attack is played out through a dungeon, the Sirensong Sea. You cannot progress with any more main story quests until that dungeon is completed. And for Stormblood and prior, that means sitting in a queue.

    "Oh, but it's not a very long queue!" That's literally irrelevant. Yeah, it's very likely that you'll have the good fortune of waiting less than five minutes to find a dungeon group. But the fact remains that you are being asked to wait. The main story has stopped, completely, for an indeterminate amount of time, and there is nothing you can do about it, except find some way to keep yourself busy until the red light turns green.

    "There you have it, then! Just keep yourself busy!" That doesn't address the main issue someone might have with the system, though. It just looks away from it, ignores it, and in the case of this argument, it calls you stupid for even thinking there's an issue to start with.

    Me, personally? I didn't mind that much, having to queue for story dungeons and trials. More often than not, I would just alt-tab and do something else until I heard the queue chime, or get up and stretch. It didn't bother me. But I can easily imagine something like this bothering someone else, especially someone coming over from WoW, and I suspect that you can, too. This isn't that hard to comprehend. I think you might be getting a bit too hung up on what the problem is called, rather than acknowledging it outright, even if it may not be a problem to someone like you or me.

    It was enough of a problem for other people that it was addressed and somewhat fixed in Shadowbringers. The Trust system allowing you to immediately take NPCs into the story dungeons without a queue time almost totally eliminates the above issue. It's just unfortunate that it couldn't extend to dungeons prior to Shadowbringers, and that it's still a problem for Shadowbringers trials. But if that's not enough of a sign that maybe the system as it worked before had its kinks, I dunno what is.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Literally was not. I was talking about Bov, to Bov. I said TO him "Considering this is coming from the guy" - Suggesting I was talking to the person who I was talking about.

    There is no scenario in which I was responding about you. The entire post states I was talking about Bov. I addressed your question with that. You didn't respond hyperbolically, and I never said so, because I wasn't talking about you.

    You literally cannot tell me who I was talking about, ESPECIALLY not when I had already stated to Bov not more than a page before about how he had been responding hyperbolically to me.



    Like... I'm sorry you misunderstood, but I LITERALLY wasn't talking about you. For real.

    I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on the rest, but I at least want to make this clear. That post was not about you.
    You're right, my apologies. I see where I got confused. The point was about me (remember I switched around your post and you got offended), so the initial point was you talking about me, but then you pivoted to actually responding to Bovine and because I wasn't reading your guys posts intimately I missed your point you highlighted above where it was directed at him and I was only a brief snippet in that response.

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmatrix View Post
    Are there good and bad blocks? Yes but it is based on personal preference. The MSQ requires group content, it you enjoy group content then its fine. If you don't like or want to do group content then its bad.
    Most of the MSQ quests are based on personal performance, group content however is tied to the group. Imagine being told you can't go to Shadowlands until you beat Nzoth normal.
    It's not a fair comparison because you don't complete a raid but a single boss fight which takes like 5 minutes.
    When you say "you have to beat Nzoth on normal" a WoW player will connect that to the trash fights and the whole raid - not just the last fight of the raid which a lot of players probably want to see in the first place because they are usually pretty nice and fun to do.

    Yeah, imagine it, do it - but don't imagine how WoW does it, imagine it with how FFXIV does it.
    With a roulette where experienced players help new players experience the old raid/dungeons/bosses, with a system and story telling that is consistent and each expansion is connected to the next and your character is not forgotten once you are done with the current expansion.

    If I had to level a character for the first time in WoW and would get to experience the raidboss fights that have a proper story attached to it, I'd be glad - not sad.
    The same thing applies to FFXIV.
    In WoW, you used to level through 5 expansions, but you never got to actually solve an issue. You just skipped the important parts.
    Now you choose 1 expansion, but you still skip the important part.
    That's not good.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-07-19 at 01:58 PM.

  4. #584
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    No in FFXIV you don't just need to wait for a queue. If a new player (or even one who isn't new but hasn't progressed that far in the MSQ) wants to play with friends who are already in Shadowbringers their options are; spend hundreds of hours progressing through the MSQ, which includes dungeon and trial queues, or buy a boost to skip to Shadowbringers and THEN they still have to spend dozens of hours playing through that story.
    FFXIV isn't wow
    I believe it's story first, MMO second. I already had cases of people that didn't like the game because they didin't want to do the story but "kill stuff and get to max level" and went back to ESO
    While I have other people that, to be honest, thought they wouldn't like the slower pace and they made it to Shadowbringers in less than a month because they ended up liking the story and other stuff (housing, gold saucer,etc)

    It's not a game for everyone
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    Then why is that supposed to be a negative again? Could it be possible there are bad blocks and good blocks, like putting an invisible wall in front of an open door or telling you come back in 7 real days without any real reason for it seems pretty bad. On the other hand, mabye you need to find the key to unlock that door by exploring another area as a good block or you need to finish a dungeon that has a story inside in order to progress the story itself, just like in order to understand the story of any game, its unlikely you can start on the last level?
    The idea isn't bad, or wrong, it's the execution here.

    Yes, it's just like any other single player story game where you can't see the later story until you complete the earlier story. The issue is, this isn't a single player game, it's an MMO where people aren't all playing for the story. Some are, some just want to play with friends, some just want to do end game stuff, some have other priorities (can't speak for everyone, just leaving it general).

    Having the vast majority of the game being locked behind the MSQ forces those people to spend what could end up being hundreds of hours slogging through stuff they don't care about and don't really want to do to get to the stuff they DO want to do. And part of that requirement are several dozen dungeons and trials that can't be done solo, which halts their MSQ progression until they complete that group content that requires a queue.

    That means, that essentially by design, the MSQ has "waiting in line" as part of its game play experience. With the length of that wait being extremely variable depending on multiple factors.

    Waiting in a queue to do group content isn't a bad thing, necessarily, it's part of the genre at this point and is expected. The issue is how dependent FFXIV is on that group content.

    Just looking at these two links:
    https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Dungeons
    https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Trials

    I count a minimum of 51 instances of group content you have to queue for (did not include Shadowbringers dungeons as you can do those solo via the Trust system). Assuming a wait time range of 5-15 minutes (which is pretty normal, but Castrum and Praetorium and some trials take longer than that) that's a total wait time range of at least 255 minutes - 765 minutes (4.25 - 12.75 hours). That's 4.25 - 12.75 (!) hours of waiting to move the MSQ forward.

    You can of course do other things in-game while waiting, and I encourage anyone to do so because there's a LOT to do, but that's not the point. The game forces you to wait that long in order to progress the MSQ and unlock content.

    That's not fun or engaging design.

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by letgoit View Post
    FF14 is a bad, clunky game with boring, janky combat.
    Nailed it! After the flash and new car smell wears off one starts to understand how weak the game is at the core.

    For some, ffxiv is exactly what they want from a game, totally cool and happy for them. I was quite enamored with the game for first couple months at launch, tried a couple returns, to now, just, no more, please, never again. I don't think a game has ever bored me that much.

    Problem with the ffxiv (the second coming) wave is that it's for far too many an easy stab at Blizz and nothing more than that. Which then fuels the lemming players to go oh, everyone is playing ffxiv, so that is the game i should be playing now, whether they like it or not is irrelevant.

    I got dc'd, "Welp off to FFXIV", i only got 15 gold reward for quest "Welp off to FFXIV", omg Ven'ari doesn't offer Spatial Realignment Apparatus season 2 "Welp off to FFXIV", i farmed gondria for 15 hours and nothing "Welp off to FFXIV" any little freaking thing, "Welp off to FFXIV" when in reality most of the people saying that are still playing wow and don't even have a Square account.

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    FFXIV isn't wow
    I believe it's story first, MMO second. I already had cases of people that didn't like the game because they didin't want to do the story but "kill stuff and get to max level" and went back to ESO
    While I have other people that, to be honest, thought they wouldn't like the slower pace and they made it to Shadowbringers in less than a month because they ended up liking the story and other stuff (housing, gold saucer,etc)

    It's not a game for everyone
    Oh, agreed.

    I loved it the first time I played through, and really appreciated it the second time through because I was still thoroughly invested in and cared about the story. But on my third play through I really understood where people were coming from where it just felt like a slog to get through because, like some people, I didn't really care about the story and just wanted to get to the parts of the game I wanted to see (Replayed ARR when HW launched, replayed HW when SB launched, replayed SB when ShB launched and am now replaying ShB now that all the patches are out).

    Point being, at some point, and for some people the design doesn't feel great.

    If that's just how they want it, that's fine, but they're alienating a pretty sizeable population by doing so and could bring in more folks if they adjusted the design a bit.

    But I do think that they could streamline things and provide more options for people instead of funneling and forcing everyone to play through everything to unlock that stuff.

  8. #588
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    But I do think that they could streamline things and provide more options for people instead of funneling and forcing everyone to play through everything to unlock that stuff.
    It's still a JRPG. With an online component, yes. But story in these things is always important
    Different strokes for different folks
    Last edited by Maljinwo; 2021-07-19 at 02:37 PM.
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    It's still a JRPG. With an online component, yes. But story in these things is always important
    I'm not disagreeing with this. But, some people really don't care about it. Some of those people still love FFXIV despite how focused on story it is.

    This tells me it's not a hard requirement for group content to be so directly tied to the story for people to enjoy it.

    I don't hate the current design, but I do understand why new players do, because they're forced to play through hundreds of hours of content before they can even see the current content, or on monetary note, to even see the content they paid for.

    If this were a single player game, each expansion would have been a new installment in the series, bought separately years apart with the player jumping directly into whatever game they purchased without being forced to play through the previous installments before enjoying what they bought.

  10. #590
    As someone who has played FFXIV since ARR went live (I didn't have the misfortune of trying it before it was built from the ground up again) I've briefly skimmed over this thread and some of the posts and I have a few things to see that may or may not be relevant, this is just from the perspective of someone that has sunk thousands of hours into the game at this point.


    1. Community. Very few MMO's do community well these days, most of them lose their social/community feeling due to shortcuts or dungeon queues or other things that just hide you away from other players, and yet, FFXIV has not only managed to use these very modern systems BUT managed to maintain its social/community feeling.

    2. If you don't like story-driven content, FFXIV likely isn't for you. The story is arguably the most important thing after community in FFXIV and enjoying that content is crucial for a long and happy FFXIV life.

    3. The Profession System is a touch of genius. It's definitely more time consuming than other games but it's also much more engaging. I've played almost every MMO since the original Everquest was still considered the king and I have yet to find an MMO with a crafting system I've enjoyed as much as FFXIV.

    4. The Class System. I think it goes without saying being able to have every class on a single character is amazing, no more massive lists of alts, no more having to gather multiple sets of the same gear for multiple characters.

    5. PvP. The PvP in FFXIV isn't great but it never really claimed to be, it was never a game that was going to be built around this idea of PvP, the PvP is just there as an added bonus... a mini-game as sorts and should absolutely be looked upon as such. When you start to see FFXIV PvP as more of a mini-game, you'll enjoy it more than taking it deadly seriously.




    There are other things I could touch on but I felt those were the main ones people keep coming back to. I hope you enjoy Eorzea as much as I have and still am

  11. #591
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I don't hate the current design, but I do understand why new players do, because they're forced to play through hundreds of hours of content before they can even see the current content, or on monetary note, to even see the content they paid for.

    If this were a single player game, each expansion would have been a new installment in the series, bought separately years apart with the player jumping directly into whatever game they purchased without being forced to play through the previous installments before enjoying what they bought.

    Personally, I paid for the story since everyone was saying how good it was (Specially with ShB) so no complaints from me
    Of course, im not every player. And hey, they can use the Free Trial to see if the would pay for a story driven MMO. By level 60 they'd know what they are getting themselves into.

    The players I know that didn't like the game uninstalled it after level 6 because "There's too much text"

    I understand your point but I simply think the neither the game nor the devs share the "game starts at max level" mentality.
    Max level players can play with their friends by using the duty finder. At least that's what I did. Helped them out by tanking dungeons, trials, and all
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That is the dumbest fucking comparison I've ever heard. Did you pull a muscle when doing all this reaching? BY DEFINITION, it's not a "7 day queue". You're just so desperate to avoid saying you're wrong that you'll now just say whatever nonsense comes to mind first.
    1... rude. 2. I'll reiterate it for him. If the argument is the fact that you are waiting to do something before you can progress, then a 1 week time gate in wow is a 10,080 minute time gate. Let's be lenient and sY every mandatory queue in ffxiv took you 30 minutes. That would mean there has to be 336 30 minute queues before they equal out. Not to mention that wow literally does it every week even at max and ffxiv only does it during the leveling process. According to what you are arguing anyway.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Personally, I paid for the story since everyone was saying how good it was (Specially with ShB) so no complaints from me
    Of course, im not every player. And hey, they can use the Free Trial to see if the would pay for a story driven MMO. By level 60 they'd know what they are getting themselves into.
    Agreed, that does mean players can try it for free and see if it's something they'll like.

    The players I know that didn't like the game uninstalled it after level 6 because "There's too much text"
    Which is a fair criticism, but that's part of what people discuss when making adjustments. Does everyone HAVE to be forced to experience all that text and everything else associated with the MSQ?

    My experience says "no" as I know many people who skip everything they can, don't care about story at all, focus almost entirely on the group content and STILL enjoy the game.

    All they're asking for are options. I'm not necessarily opposed to that idea, so long as it doesn't change my experience. I like and am fine with the game as it is, mostly.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You're right, my apologies. I see where I got confused. The point was about me (remember I switched around your post and you got offended), so the initial point was you talking about me, but then you pivoted to actually responding to Bovine and because I wasn't reading your guys posts intimately I missed your point you highlighted above where it was directed at him and I was only a brief snippet in that response.
    Wait.. did someone just apologize for misunderstanding something? Get out! (Sarcasm).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xpsync View Post
    Nailed it! After the flash and new car smell wears off one starts to understand how weak the game is at the core.

    For some, ffxiv is exactly what they want from a game, totally cool and happy for them. I was quite enamored with the game for first couple months at launch, tried a couple returns, to now, just, no more, please, never again. I don't think a game has ever bored me that much.

    Problem with the ffxiv (the second coming) wave is that it's for far too many an easy stab at Blizz and nothing more than that. Which then fuels the lemming players to go oh, everyone is playing ffxiv, so that is the game i should be playing now, whether they like it or not is irrelevant.

    I got dc'd, "Welp off to FFXIV", i only got 15 gold reward for quest "Welp off to FFXIV", omg Ven'ari doesn't offer Spatial Realignment Apparatus season 2 "Welp off to FFXIV", i farmed gondria for 15 hours and nothing "Welp off to FFXIV" any little freaking thing, "Welp off to FFXIV" when in reality most of the people saying that are still playing wow and don't even have a Square account.
    What is wrong with you? Who hurt you? Where is all the animosity toward ffxiv coming from? You don't like the game? Ok fine.. go play something you do like and stop forcing toxicity on people who do. Thats like being a door to door Bible thumper.. just because you like religion doesn't mean everyone wants you to stuff your opinion down their throat.
    Last edited by Subrias; 2021-07-19 at 04:14 PM.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Subrias View Post
    Wait.. did someone just apologize for misunderstanding something? Get out! (Sarcasm).

    - - - Updated - - -



    What is wrong with you? Who hurt you? Where is all the animosity toward ffxiv coming from? You don't like the game? Ok fine.. go play something you do like and stop forcing toxicity on people who do. Thats like being a door to door Bible thumper.. just because you like religion doesn't mean everyone wants you to stuff your opinion down their throat.
    Streamers come and go, some are around longer than others but overall i've noticed their shelf life isn't forever, that time in the spotlight fades fast as their audience matures, or they've made so much money they just don't care anymore and peeps lose interest, numerous reasons.

    Sure, you have supreme exceptions such as pie, but so many drift out of importance seemingly over night. People are people, and they be no different from you or I, their soapbox is just bigger for a time, in the end they walk away multimillionaires, and all thanks to people who wasted their time watching, whom then walk away chumps with nothing.

    I'm happy for people whom love ffxiv, for me i know what the game is like at the core and is not for me, wow is far superior to me in every conceivable way being a EQ2 vet from the golden era of mmorpg's, rip EQ2 2004 - 2008.

    Absolutely hated on wow for a better part of decade for destroying the genre by flooding it with "i want it now" casuals, wow is and will always be the destroyer of worlds.

    Years back went through the whole being a pinball bouncing from mmo to a new mmo every other week era, and eso, ffxiv, lotro just never made the cut, way to "push button i win" as long as your credit card is on tap, then short story short i was luckily awakened to the fact that wow has hard af content.

    Daddy D in a 2-2-6, HELL YEAH!!!! MOFO's!!! HELL F YEAH!!! it was so good, smiling for days after that take down, haven't been that high since EQ2, all the practice, all the preparing, all the teamwork.

    Oh POG cut scene ffxiv wow so exciting, lotro cool shire and one shot'n mobs, eso is just a disgrace, it literally feels like it's falling apart at the seams, enter wow... polished, rock solid, exceptional crisp graphics, fast loads, hard hard hard content YES like omg and BFA as an example is supreme content for solo players where you play along as stories are told, you interact not sit there for an entire evening watching never ending cut scenes, perfect game to watch through a console and lay down on the couch, and some love that, which is great.

    Just letting people know ffxiv isn't that great and they don't have to be a lemming and follow peeps like Asmond, or followers like yourself who play only whats popular, whether you like it or not is irrelevant, just following the popularity crowd, and you ask what's wrong with me is quite humorous and cute tbh cause you only need to look in to the mirror to find out what's truly wrong.
    Last edited by xpsync; 2021-07-19 at 04:40 PM.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by xpsync View Post
    Streamers come and go, some are around longer than others but overall i've noticed their shelf life isn't forever, that time in the spotlight fades fast as their audience matures, or they've made so much money they just don't care anymore and peeps lose interest, numerous reasons.

    Sure, you have supreme exceptions such as pie, but so many drift out of importance seemingly over night. People are people, and they be no different from you or I, their soapbox is just bigger for a time, in the end they walk away multimillionaires, and all thanks to people who wasted their time watching, whom then walk away chumps with nothing.

    I'm happy for people whom love ffxiv, for me i know what the game is like at the core and is not for me, wow is far superior to me in every conceivable way being a EQ2 vet from the golden era of mmorpg's, rip EQ2 2004 - 2008.

    Absolutely hated on wow for a better part of decade for destroying the genre by flooding it with "i want it now" casuals, wow is and will always be the destroyer of worlds.

    Years back went through the whole being a pinball bouncing from mmo to a new mmo every other week era, and eso, ffxiv, lotro just never made the cut, way to "push button i win" as long as your credit card is on tap, then short story short i was luckily awakened to the fact that wow has hard af content.

    Daddy D in a 2-2-6, HELL YEAH!!!! MOFO's!!! HELL F YEAH!!! it was so good, smiling for days after that take down, haven't been that high since EQ2, all the practice, all the preparing, all the teamwork.

    Oh POG cut scene ffxiv wow so exciting, lotro cool shire and one shot'n mobs, eso is just a disgrace, it literally feels like it's falling apart at the seams, enter wow... polished, rock solid, exceptional crisp graphics, fast loads, hard hard hard content YES like omg and BFA as an example is supreme content for solo players where you play along as stories are told, you interact not sit there for an entire evening watching never ending cut scenes, perfect game to watch through a console and lay down on the couch, and some love that, which is great.

    Just letting people know ffxiv isn't that great and they don't have to be a lemming and follow peeps like Asmond, or followers like yourself who play only whats popular, whether you like it or not is irrelevant, just following the popularity crowd, and you ask what's wrong with me is quite humorous and cute tbh cause you only need to look in to the mirror to find out what's truly wrong.
    You sound high AF....

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You sound high AF....
    What they say must be true for people like you, Truth hurts. ouch for you.

    If you love playing games on autopilot that's fine, nothing wrong with that, just don't know what compels you to lash out at others over it, you got your paradise game you should be happy?

    Think about it, you can buy anything you want on the cash shop, HECK you can even PAY to SKIP all the content, my dude you should be jumping for joy, and not angry at the world. Enter your cc and enjoy paying your way, it's what you've been begging for all these years and now it's here, can't understand why you'd be so upset?

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by xpsync View Post
    What they say must be true for people like you, Truth hurts. ouch for you.

    If you love playing games on autopilot that's fine, nothing wrong with that, just don't know what compels you to lash out at others over it, you got your paradise game you should be happy?

    Think about it, you can buy anything you want on the cash shop, HECK you can even PAY to SKIP all the content, my dude you should be jumping for joy, and not angry at the world. Enter your cc and enjoy paying your way, it's what you've been begging for all these years and now it's here, can't understand why you'd be so upset?
    I meant the way you're speaking. You sound like one of those super high AF hippies who talk about some profound revelation they came to about the world and are trying to share it with people, and everyone who isn't also high has to get a translator to try and understand the point.

  19. #599
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I meant the way you're speaking. You sound like one of those super high AF hippies who talk about some profound revelation they came to about the world and are trying to share it with people, and everyone who isn't also high has to get a translator to try and understand the point.
    Oh good, I thought I was the only one who thought that while reading the post.

  20. #600
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Which is a fair criticism, but that's part of what people discuss when making adjustments. Does everyone HAVE to be forced to experience all that text and everything else associated with the MSQ?

    My experience says "no" as I know many people who skip everything they can, don't care about story at all, focus almost entirely on the group content and STILL enjoy the game.

    All they're asking for are options. I'm not necessarily opposed to that idea, so long as it doesn't change my experience. I like and am fine with the game as it is, mostly.
    Well, the option to skip the story does exist even if it costs money so I think it would be possible to just unlock stuff as you level up as other games but that's not a philosophy the designers want to encourage, it seems
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

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