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  1. #781
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    It's ironic you mention GW2, which is arguably the best MMO currently on the market and has no sub. The main reason it struggles has nothing to do with a lack of endgame content
    I don't consider the Grindaries or the mastery grinds to be fun content. GW2 is in the same boat as FFXIV where once you've done all of the story content, there isn't any meaningful content left to do besides repeatable content (ie grinds for grindness' sake). GW2's story content has awful writing, less interesting characters (Rytlock and Canach are the only memorable characters) and way shittier presentation than in FFXIV (lol the cutscenes). The one thing will give GW2 is that their setpieces are pretty good, be it running through the jungle being chased by a spider lady, or jumping from rock to rock across an abyss towards Mordremoth's tower, or jumping into Mordremoth's mind, or assaulting Kralkatorik, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    Most zones have large-scale events that were/are the effective endgame content
    Doing Vinewrath or Mouth of Mordremoth your first time is fun. Doing it a hundred more times isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    not to mention the crafting system for legendary items and high-level gear.
    I will give GW2 that once you obtain your pinks, you can never have to worry about gear ever again. The inventory micromanagement is 10x worse than FFXIV, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    FF is literally getting attention solely because it was the most recent release and Asmongold played it.
    The last time GW2 got a lot of hype was when HoT released in 2015. After that, it got a small amount of publicity with PoF's launch, 4 years ago. GW2 has been pretty much forgotten since. The only outlet talking about it was that one writer for Massively OP who talked about the episode releases (I think the name of his column was Flameseeker Chronicles?), and that was it.

    FFXIV's rise in popularity began around Stormblood. You started seeing more and more coverage of each patch and live stream, way more than GW2 ever got with its patches and LWS episodes. And then in 2019 news publications began lapping up every FFXIV interview or tidbit they could find. And then the word of mouth reviews about ShB really began making the game balloon in 2019/2020. Asmongold is just the latest line in a long train of events.

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    As far as I know it has nothing GW2 doesn't also have and do better in many cases.
    • +++ I can play every class/spec/job on a single character. In GW2 you have to jump between multiple characters. Class design in GW2 is really muddled because - like WoW - each "class" is actually like 3+ different classes because of the specializations. You have to spend hours and hours watching youtube videos, levelling up to 80, grinding to unlock the specializations, reading guides on all of your combos and playstyles, and then have to spend time testing them out, just to figure out if you even like the playstyles. With FFXIV you can easily just unlock the job, go into PotD or the Wolf's Den, and find out within 10 minutes whether or not you will like the job. Also way easier for the devs to design for.
    • + FFXIV's story isn't the most amazing thing ever like the cultists make it out to be, but there are very few other games right now - even singleplayer ones - with the standards of quality that FFXIV has. From voice acting to cutscene presentation and so forth. GW2's story is a joke. It's even more infuriating if you've actually played GW1, and then go into GW2 and realize what a joke the lore has become. Charr apologism, every race working together, and so on.
    • + Instanced content in FFXIV is miles better than GW2. Now, I'm not saying FFXIV's instanced content is WoW levels of amazing, but it is still good nonetheless. It's easy but not braindead boring or tedious grinding like GW2.
    • +/- This is an opinion, but I don't think GW2's action combat is an improvement over FFXIV's more traditional combat.
    • ++ Great music. Masayoshi Soken's soundtrack is overall legit great. Up there in my top 5 game OSTs. GW2 only really ever had Jeremy Soule during vanilla, and after that it goes bad. The only GW2 song after he left that I can recall is the Mordremoth final battle theme.
    • + I know people make fun of FFXIV's special effects, but battles aren't visually incoherent like this:



    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    Plus it has a sub, which is an enormous negative in my eyes at this point.
    GW2 effectively has a subscription model as well. If you're not actively playing, then you have to pay for each episode you missed. Each episode is only like $2 but it adds up. If you join GW2 now, you have to drop $30 to buy the base game, and then you have to buy 4 seasons of episodes. That's easily going to run you over $100. And then you have to drop more money because how predatory GW2's cash shop is, buying extra bank space and unbreakable mining tools and so on. Yes FFXIV puts mounts and cosmetic armors on their story but the gameplay and systems aren't designed to infuriate you to the point that you have to pay for convenience. Ultimately with FFXIV, you can buy the game for $50, beat it before your subscription service runs out, and then drop it. Or stay subbed, or whatever. With GW2, you have to drop $100+ at least in order to access all of the content, and due to the grinds you will have to spend way more time playing GW2 then you reasonably should.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Other things


    There are a few things I do really miss from GW2. For one, the Charr. They're an actual beastman race I can play. I love beastmen races, but sadly very few games do beastmen right. They're usually just humans with animal heads. Not so in GW2. The Charr have inhuman faces, are hunched over, have different anatomy from a human, and so forth. They even run on all fours! They actually feel like beastmen.






    FFXIV's attempt at "beastmen" in that regard is rather pathetic. They're essentially just humans with rubber animal masks on. I wish I loved Hrothgar like I loved Charr, but alas. Mind as well just play which variation of human I prefer the most (Lalafell, or right now, old man Elezen).


    Also, when it comes to sparkly weapons, GW2 has FFXIV beat.

    • When you draw the shortbow, Chuka and Champawat, the two tiger spirits will roar and jump into the bow, making it glow and enlarge slightly. Rather than shooting arrows, the shortbow shoots out tiger spirits that run towards the target. The wielder also leaves behind claw marks as their "footprints".
    • If you use the focus, the Binding of Ipos, the tome will float in front of the character and a shadowy hand will grow out of the player. When you cast a spell, it will send out a giant, ghostly hand towards the target, or an evil eye.
    • Drawing the warhorn Verdarach summons ghostly soldiers and ghostly swords.
    • The greatsword, Exordium, changes shape depending on what ability you are using, ie morphing into a hammer for a melee AoE or widening into a shield when blocking.
    • The staff Nevemore will summon a flock of crows to circle high above you when drawn.
    • The greatswords Twilight and Sunrise (Sunrise is pictured below) have a beautiful, painterly animation, looking as if you are wielding a living painting as a sword. You can see another world inside the sword. If you look into the blade of Twilight, you see starry galaxies. If you look into the blade of Sunrise, you see a blue and golden sky with fluffy clouds. Swinging either sword leaves trails of paint.





    FFXIV has nothing like that. They're just sparkly weapons. No special sound effects, no drawing or ability animations, no nothing.

    And before it's brought up, yes mounts in GW2 are way better than in any other MMO. Racing around in the beetle chariot is cool, and the momentum based flying is fun.


    If FFXIV didn't exist, then I might still be playing GW2. But FFXIV does exist, and to me those positives for GW2 aren't enough to outweigh GW2's negatives and the positives FFXIV has.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2021-09-09 at 01:31 AM.

  2. #782
    I loved GW2 when it launched. At the time, it was damn near close to the type of MMO I would've designed. Then they started gradually going back on their manifesto. It's since become one of the few MMOs I've played that I haven't had a desire to return to since I quit. I didn't like the Living Story let alone in lieu of expansions, so I felt like I did everything I wanted to do in the game. I'd already moved on to something else before HoT was announced. I've heard PoF is good but, again, just haven't seen anything that's made me feel like I want to go back.

    Also, yeah, inventory was an issue even at release. They want you to pay for more space. I can't imagine what it's like now.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    It's ironic you mention GW2, which is arguably the best MMO currently on the market and has no sub. The main reason it struggles has nothing to do with a lack of endgame content, but a lack of player imagination and understanding of it. Most zones have large-scale events that were/are the effective endgame content, not to mention the crafting system for legendary items and high-level gear.

    FF is literally getting attention solely because it was the most recent release and Asmongold played it. As far as I know it has nothing GW2 doesn't also have and do better in many cases. Plus it has a sub, which is an enormous negative in my eyes at this point. No game is so good it deserves to suck from my wallet's tit every month.
    "Am I so out of touch?"
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  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    So the biggest excuse that many guys have shared here about ARR, is a bad excuse. ARR story may not be that "interesting", but its not bad or slow to do.
    Edit: Not to deter anyone, some people genuinely enjoy ARR and that's fine I just didn't happen to be one of them. I loved HW though.

    It isn't bamboo under the fingernails torture, but it's not fun either. It's a lot of porting back and forth with little action. My ranking is as follows:

    Start to joining a GC, decent if you start in Ul'dah. I am biased, Ul'dah is best starter city with best Scion.
    Sylphs to Coerthas, not fun. Coerthas gets a pass here for reasons.
    Post-Coerthas to Snowcloak, not fun.

    That is far and away the bulk of ARR, probably 80% of it at least. I did all of ARR twice in the trial and I would not want to do it again even though it is a massive amount of EXP for leveling multiple jobs with the Road to 70 buff. I'd sooner do daily roulettes, fates, and logs. It might be slower, but I'd enjoy it more.
    Last edited by Lane; 2021-09-09 at 05:10 AM.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    If we are talking about the perfect videogame my vote goes to Xenogears.
    First time we've agreed in a while methinks.

  6. #786
    NGL This thread kinda triggered me. I made an account just to set somethings straight. Main thing is ability pruning which has been done, IIRC it was done towards then end of Heavensward or Beginning of Stormblood. Trust me it used to be alot worst and I think they did a great job removing redundant and downright useless abilities. As MCH for example I have exactly 20 important abilities and depending on AoE or single target I will only use 14 or 15 of those consistently. Ninja which is my main uses exactly 25 slots and 2 are very situational healing abilities that are pretty much only used for solo play 3 are AoE and 1 utility. I will log on and provide a screenshot if I must to show how downright wrong this is observation was. Imo 15-22 abilities for an MMO is perfect otherwise the game starts to become an over-glorified action-RPG(cough WoW)And on professions I think this is one of the if not the last MMO to actually get crafting right next to Everquest2 so that is very much so subjective to your playstyle.

    on a side note to the person(s) above me. yes indeed Xenogears was the greatest game ever made. Long live Fei Fong Wong! Now im gonna go play some FF14 with Xenogears music playing in the background!

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    I mean, ARR is not bad as saying "Shadowlands". ARR content is still fun to play, for example: Dungeons and Jobs. Leveling up its a fun thing to do, at least for me.

    But also, ARR goes that fast, that i dont even care enough for it. Once you have read the story, there is no need to do that again. You can simply skip all the cutscenes and text.
    The only thing that makes the MSQ tolerable to enjoyable (IMO) is being interested in or liking the story. One of the big differences between ARR and HW was I read everything and talked to everyone because I was hooked, so the porting back and forth wasn't as noticeable. There was also a lot less filler.

    I skipped cutscenes and sped clicked through everything the second time around in ARR along with my SO (who doesn't care about the story) and our experience could be described as a lot of groans, grumbles, and sighs. Port several times across the continent, queue up for something, rinse and repeat. It still took us quite a bit of time to get through it because when we sit down to game we don't want to play port clicker for hours.

    I'm going to throw in here too that I hate the way FFXIV does job trainers. You start out in a major city with (usually) a teleport directly to them only at level 30 to be sent to NPCs out in the wilderness (or otherwise in a city/area that makes no sense) and, if you level multiple jobs, good luck remembering where they all are. I have to look it up almost every time (except for DRG). Ability acquisition throughout ARR is still abysmal, made worse by low level content syncing. You get excited to finally learn another active ability only for it to be greyed out the next duty or dungeon you enter.

    I think if the MSQ is going to be the primary means of progression they should add more combat to it. You mentioned Shadowlands, which I didn't like most of, but I was at least playing my character between story beats.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  8. #788
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    I think the main problem from FF14, the one i faced with my main character, is that there is not much things to do at Shadowbringers endgame. Other than collect currency and buy armor styles. Other than that, i havent been able to check what else it has to offer. I got tired fast of Shadowbringers for some reason....But i returned to older content to play alt jobs.
    While yes there is a lack of meaningful content to do, I am glad that there is minimal padding. It's not like WoW or GW2 where your progression through the content is heavily padded by timegating and grinds. FFXIV respects my time. I just do the content and then I'm done. Maybe I stick around and do Gold Saucer and PvP when I feel like it. The only real grind is levelling up alt jobs or doing the relic weapons.

  9. #789
    go for it, will be good

  10. #790
    Well I played for 6 months, but I’m quitting til Endwalker as of tomorrow.

    It’s a good game, but the terrible engine, wonky servers, and many of the limitations they cause are the big things that wore me down.

    Hopefully they either do an overhaul to their back end or move the bulk of their resources onto a next gen FF MMO after Endwalker.

    Preferably a next gen MMO.

  11. #791
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Hopefully they either do an overhaul to their back end or move onto a next gen FF MMO after Endwalker.

    Preferably a next gen MMO.
    Firstly, I doubt we will get another big budget MMO again. MMOs are quite possibly the #1 most expensive genre of game to develop and to maintain. You need to employ an army of artists and animators to make your world and hundreds of monsters and to animate all of them and give players their hundreds of different animations required. Those artists usually live in a place with a very high cost of living (Silicon Valley or LA in California, or Austin Texas, or Tokyo, etc). So the upfront costs are very high. And then you have the standard marketing strategy of sinking hundreds of millions of dollars into advertising.

    FFXIV began development in 2005... right when WoW and was an unprecedented smash success for the video games industry. Everyone wanted their own WoW clone to double dip in that "sell players a $60 game AND charge them $15 a month!" and rake in the cash. When the game finally released in 2010 and flopped, it was still in a climate in which the big developers still hadn't given up on the themepark MMO yet. WoW was still on it's meteoric rise in subscribers and the titans, SWTOR and GW2, were still just around the corner, so from a business perspective a FF themepark MMO still had a chance to be a success. That and Japanese pride to salvage the tarnished name of the FF franchise (the 2000s were pretty bad for Square, with the movie flopping so they had to merge. And FFXII, FFXIII, and Versus XIII had legendarily troubled development cycles).

    Nowadays, MMOs are pretty much a near dead genre. All of the true, oldschool MMOs like Ultima Online or Ragnarok or SWG are either dead or have servers with only a few hundred players, most only currently existing as private servers. The mobile port (and remaster or remake?) of FFXI was cancelled a couple years ago. Every themepark MMO that isn't named WoW, GW2, or ESO are in sorry shapes and are in a very late term milking phase, soon to go on life support if not shut down entirely (SWTOR, STO, LOTRO, Rift, Camelot Unchained, Crowfall, Shroud of the Avatar, etc). WoW is a hollow shell of its former shelf, and being eclipsed by FFXIV isn't much to write home about when FFXIV still lives in the shadow of golden age WoW from over a decade ago, still towering over it with at least 5x as many subscribers at its height. The rest have been dead for years. The biggest MMO coming out in years, the new Lord of the Rings MMO by Amazon, has been cancelled. Apparently not even they think that the new TV show will give enough of a bump of interest in the IP to make a new LoTR MMO successful.

    Rockstar gaming culture has died. You no longer have companies like oldschool Blizzard or ArenaNet that passionately make games - not to make the most money possible - but because they want to have fun, and were okay making high production quality masterpieces aimed at niche audiences. They've all been converged and have become soulless companies that chase after as wide of a market as possible and making as much money as possible. MMOs ceased being the most profitable trend to chase a decade ago. LoL happened and the craze became MOBAs. Then battle royals became the trend, but now they're no longer very trendy. Current conventional wisdom says to just make shitty mobile games.

    Unless SAO's FullDive Gear becomes a reality, we will likely never get a high budget MMO again. Looking at the abysmal state of the Western AAA industry (and just look at the decline of the Japanese games' industry. Many studios and IPs did not survive the transition to HD), we're quite lucky we're even getting FF16 at all.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2021-09-10 at 04:09 AM.

  12. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Firstly, I doubt we will get another big budget MMO again. MMOs are quite possibly the #1 most expensive genre of game to develop and to maintain. You need to employ an army of artists and animators to make your world and hundreds of monsters and to animate all of them and give players their hundreds of different animations required. Those artists usually live in a place with a very high cost of living (Silicon Valley or LA in California, or Austin Texas, or Tokyo, etc). So the upfront costs are very high. And then you have the standard marketing strategy of sinking hundreds of millions of dollars into advertising.

    FFXIV began development in 2005... right when WoW and was an unprecedented smash success for the video games industry. Everyone wanted their own WoW clone to double dip in that "sell players a $60 game AND charge them $15 a month!" and rake in the cash. When the game finally released in 2010 and flopped, it was still in a climate in which the big developers still hadn't given up on the themepark MMO yet. WoW was still on it's meteoric rise in subscribers and the titans, SWTOR and GW2, were still just around the corner, so from a business perspective a FF themepark MMO still had a chance to be a success. That and Japanese pride to salvage the tarnished name of the FF franchise (the 2000s were pretty bad for Square, with the movie flopping so they had to merge. And FFXII, FFXIII, and Versus XIII had legendarily troubled development cycles).

    Nowadays, MMOs are pretty much a near dead genre. All of the true, oldschool MMOs like Ultima Online or Ragnarok or SWG are either dead or have servers with only a few hundred players, most only currently existing as private servers. The mobile port (and remaster or remake?) of FFXI was cancelled a couple years ago. Every themepark MMO that isn't named WoW, GW2, or ESO are in sorry shapes and are in a very late term milking phase, soon to go on life support if not shut down entirely (SWTOR, STO, LOTRO, Rift, Camelot Unchained, Crowfall, Shroud of the Avatar, etc). WoW is a hollow shell of its former shelf, and being eclipsed by FFXIV isn't much to write home about when FFXIV still lives in the shadow of golden age WoW from over a decade ago, still towering over it with at least 5x as many subscribers at its height. The rest have been dead for years. The biggest MMO coming out in years, the new Lord of the Rings MMO by Amazon, has been cancelled. Apparently not even they think that the new TV show will give enough of a bump of interest in the IP to make a new LoTR MMO successful.

    Rockstar gaming culture has died. You no longer have companies like oldschool Blizzard or ArenaNet that passionately make games - not to make the most money possible - but because they want to have fun, and were okay making high production quality masterpieces aimed at niche audiences. They've all been converged and have become soulless companies that chase after as wide of a market as possible and making as much money as possible. MMOs ceased being the most profitable trend to chase a decade ago. LoL happened and the craze became MOBAs. Then battle royals became the trend, but now they're no longer very trendy. Current conventional wisdom says to just make shitty mobile games.

    Unless SAO's FullDive Gear becomes a reality, we will likely never get a high budget MMO again. Looking at the abysmal state of the Western AAA industry (and just look at the decline of the Japanese games' industry. Many studios and IPs did not survive the transition to HD), we're quite lucky we're even getting FF16 at all.
    I mean, there are at least 2 new high budget MMO’s in development right now that I’m aware of - AOC and Riots unannounced MMO.

    So there are definitely major western MMOs on the horizon, though I hear what you’re saying about the current climate being not what it was.

    I don’t think the future is the quest to dungeon to raid MMO formula EQ and then WoW popularized, I think the future is going to be more metaverse esque where there will be dungeons/raids that are more of just another side thing you can do, rather than the primary. I see the future of MMOs leaning more into social lifestyle aspects like second life than grind and raid games like EQ.

    FF has tons of nostalgia and characters and worlds that would be a great foundation for something like that. Itd be smart of them to lean on nostalgia and make a next gen FF MMO as something more like “FF online” where they could make use of all their FF characters and worlds if they wanted rather than a FF17 or whatever that would essentially be like FF14 with a new coat of paint.

    I think future MMOs will be fundamentally different and built to last decades with current tech being as good as it is, unlike FF14, which has a much more finite shelf life. I personally dont see it having much appeal to the masses beyond Endwalker without major back end revamps.

    They did a great job patching the game up, but it’s innately bad in a lot of ways because of bad decisions made with 1.0 that seemingly can’t really be fixed and will always turn people off the game.

    A new FF MMO has the potential of real mass appeal and why I think it’s plausible.
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2021-09-10 at 06:53 AM.

  13. #793
    Idk about unplayable but I did not enjoy that last raid of ARR like, at all it was at least 80% super wordy cutscenes and that's not remotely hyperbole.

    Kind of hated it actually.

  14. #794
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyrinx View Post
    Idk about unplayable but I did not enjoy that last raid of ARR like, at all it was at least 80% super wordy cutscenes and that's not remotely hyperbole.

    Kind of hated it actually.
    Ya, the Praetorium is a well known bad spot in the game in the community.

    Everyone hates it.

    Good news is it's the only instance like that in the whole game.

  15. #795
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Well I played for 6 months, but I’m quitting til Endwalker as of tomorrow.

    It’s a good game, but the terrible engine, wonky servers, and many of the limitations they cause are the big things that wore me down.

    Hopefully they either do an overhaul to their back end or move the bulk of their resources onto a next gen FF MMO after Endwalker.

    Preferably a next gen MMO.
    What's wrong with the servers?

  16. #796
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    What's wrong with the servers?
    Server ticks and things like improving the glamour system to be like WoW's transmog and collection system, for example, aren't possible because of limitations of their servers (from what I've heard).

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Ya, the Praetorium is a well known bad spot in the game in the community.

    Everyone hates it.

    Good news is it's the only instance like that in the whole game.
    Oh well that's good, because man it REALLY sucked lol. Had family aggro, needed to be done and it took 20 mins of dialogue and 2 mins of fighting to get thru that final fight....

  18. #798
    Scarab Lord
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    Luckily they never do anything like the Praetorium again. Pretty sure it takes 45-50 minutes total, where it's like 35 minutes of dialogue and 10 minutes of actually fighting. The other scenario is by contrast a lot faster.

    Unless you somehow wipe a lot, most dungeons are like 20 minutes and each individual trial or raid boss (not savage or extreme) is 3-8 minutes long typically. I pretty much only died in dungeons half a dozen times from 1-80, with probably a dozen wipes total in all of the raid/trial content I did. One of the trials I wiped to three times simply because the action sequence event half way through the battle requires everybody to do it successfully, to which we failed it three times.

    I hate action sequence button prompt things in games. I disliked them before they popped up in FF14 and wiping several times because somebody couldn't spam their keyboard or controller was really annoying. Had we just wiped cause a lot of people fell off the side or got hit by mechanics I would've been fine with.

  19. #799
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Server ticks and things like improving the glamour system to be like WoW's transmog and collection system, for example, aren't possible because of limitations of their servers (from what I've heard).
    I've heard it had to do with the PS3 hardware limitations. Could be BS as I haven't seen any dev explanation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Ya, the Praetorium is a well known bad spot in the game in the community.

    Everyone hates it.

    Good news is it's the only instance like that in the whole game.
    They should completely scrap it as a raid, make it a lengthy cinematic that it practically is or a solo duty.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    I've heard it had to do with the PS3 hardware limitations. Could be BS as I haven't seen any dev explanation.

    - - - Updated - - -.
    I know that for sure created a lot of limitations, such an why it's not an actual open world, and many many other things.

    I'm not sure the glamour system update is one of them. I remember someone saying Yoshi-P said it was a server thing, but I could be wrong.

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