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  1. #201
    Warchief Advent's Avatar
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    What I often see, as in the case of even this thread, is someone who states that they dont like something about FF14, followed by rabid vitriol about how "It's not supposed to be like WoW". Very counterproductive and childish imo. But then again, critiquing FF14 in any capacity is met with fire and pitchforks because any criticism is taken as some sort of personal attack.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    This is complete nonsense. The positionals give a great dimension to your gameplay as you figure out the timing to maximise your damage through positionals while avoiding mechanics and when to use the skill that lets you temporarely ignore the positional. It gives you a lot more to think about as dps. More decisions and seeing a reward from them means more fun.

    You are absolutely wrong. But i guess you only played low level stuff to say that kind of thing.
    Firstly - let me add that while I do not play melee DPS at the savage/ultimate level currently, I played DRG in ARR/HW at the highest levels (CoB/SCoB and Gordias).

    1) They're not consistent (i.e. not all bosses have them)
    2) The netcode really isn't good enough to support them
    3) Optimal usage of positionals actually minimizes their engagement, i.e. micro stutters to optimize positioning isn't particularly fun
    4) SE has consistently reduced their impact and their punishment for failure (i.e. Not getting Heavy Thrust buff if you missed the flank)
    5) Button bloat is an issue in this game and creating an ability to mitigate the already reduced impact of positionals seems unnecessary
    6) Most positionals are flat damage increases (barring like SAM) which for average players (not using FFLogs/ACT) means that you can't even tell the difference between hitting them or not.
    7) They're fixed in occurrence and frequency. They always happen at the same time, on the same ability, for the same effect. I.e. static and not dynamic makes even less appealing to me.

    I do think atm FFXIV is the superior game. The raids encounters are amazing and rely more on visual queues rather than addon warnings to react to mechanics. The excitement of the fights doesn't compare either. There is destruction and arena deformation in ways we never seen in WoW. Amazing boss attacks as well.
    My favorite fight is the final boss of Orbonne Monastery. That fight takes you for a ride!
    I can't say it's a superior game, even if I truly want it to be. If they could clean up the netcode and add some dynamism in the systems and content design it could EASILY be the best MMO on the market, but everything feels and is too rigid.

    I don't quite understand the arena statement as I find that's actually one of the weakest areas in FF14 (Titan alleviates this somewhat, but it's a rare example). Look at a fight like Jaina compared to anything in FF14.

    Don't get me wrong - I actually think that FF14 does extremely well with raid design on average. It's a bit rigid, but the presentation is often top tier and I regularly cite EX primals as some of the best content designed in the modern MMO space.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; Yesterday at 04:51 PM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    This is complete nonsense. The positionals give a great dimension to your gameplay as you figure out the timing to maximise your damage through positionals while avoiding mechanics and when to use the skill that lets you temporarely ignore the positional. It gives you a lot more to think about as dps. More decisions and seeing a reward from them means more fun.

    You are absolutely wrong. But i guess you only played low level stuff to say that kind of thing.
    I disagree somewhat, at least on the idea that it gives you something to think about and that it's a reward. After playing enough, you don't really think about it and there's no real reward for doing it right, there's just penalties for doing it wrong. The reason I say there's no reward is because other classes can do just as good, if not better, damage without having to worry about positionals and the classes with positionals HAVE to hit their positional requirements in order to compete with them. That to me means there's no reward, as it's expected you hit them to do competitive DPS. That also means, to me, positionals are not "fun," they're a nuisance which means (again, to me) that it's not compelling game play. They're actually a deterrent for me to ever play those classes as more than just a side thing to level just to have the classes at max level.

    EDIT: To add, after reading @Wrecktangle post, I don't see how it can be considered a reward when in most cases the person can't even tell whether they're doing it right or not. There's no in game feedback to let you know when/if you hit the positional correctly, you might see different numbers, but without a parser you wouldn't even be able to tell. So someone playing the class and hitting every positional feels exactly the same as someone playing the class and trying to but missing every positional...how is that compelling or rewarding?
    Last edited by Katchii; Yesterday at 03:46 PM.

  4. #204
    The thing about positionals is - as Wreck pointed out already - they're always the same, in the same order, at the same time in your rotation. There's no "thinking about it" or something. You stand there at the rear/flank corner and shimmy to the left every other global and shimmy to the right every other global. (Or whatever sequence your job uses.)

    The long GCD doesn't help in this regard, either, since you have an eternity to get into position each time. (I don't think there are any oGCD's with positionals, are there? I can't recall any.)

    If there was some dynamic element to the movement, something that made you react and move accordingly, that might be more interesting.

    (Your auto-attacks have a chance to reveal your target's weak spot, refreshing the cooldown on [Some oGCD Thing] and increasing its potency to 500 if delivered from the [rear/flank, chosen at random and indicated on the targetting circle]. Additionally, any currently active combo is reset if [Some oGCD Thing] is executed in the wrong position.)

    Anyway, I'm no game designer, that's just spitballing. It's just that positionals always bore me to tears because it feels like something so basic, so trivial, and so repetitive, yet I have to constantly devote this segment of my attention to it, just swaying a couple inches back and forth over and over and over again. It's not stressful or challenging, it just makes me feel exceptionally bored. It's like driving your car except you have to change the radio station every 10 seconds or else the car will stall.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    What I often see, as in the case of even this thread, is someone who states that they dont like something about FF14, followed by rabid vitriol about how "It's not supposed to be like WoW". Very counterproductive and childish imo. But then again, critiquing FF14 in any capacity is met with fire and pitchforks because any criticism is taken as some sort of personal attack.
    Well, you know how it is.

    To some people, their chosen MMO isn't just a game.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; Yesterday at 05:07 PM.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I disagree somewhat, at least on the idea that it gives you something to think about and that it's a reward. After playing enough, you don't really think about it and there's no real reward for doing it right, there's just penalties for doing it wrong. The reason I say there's no reward is because other classes can do just as good, if not better, damage without having to worry about positionals and the classes with positionals HAVE to hit their positional requirements in order to compete with them. That to me means there's no reward, as it's expected you hit them to do competitive DPS. That also means, to me, positionals are not "fun," they're a nuisance which means (again, to me) that it's not compelling game play. They're actually a deterrent for me to ever play those classes as more than just a side thing to level just to have the classes at max level.

    EDIT: To add, after reading @Wrecktangle post, I don't see how it can be considered a reward when in most cases the person can't even tell whether they're doing it right or not. There's no in game feedback to let you know when/if you hit the positional correctly, you might see different numbers, but without a parser you wouldn't even be able to tell. So someone playing the class and hitting every positional feels exactly the same as someone playing the class and trying to but missing every positional...how is that compelling or rewarding?
    You know, the same can be said about ranged having to move and break their DPS rotation. Learning to reduce the needed movement also results in better performance.
    Well, in the case of Dragoon you have an indicator if you did the last one correctly cause it changes your first combo button. But damage is the hint. After you've done it enough, you'll know. Obviously, it shows on your damage parse result too.

    Also, as some other tried to mistakingly say, they are -not- always the same. Each job works differently. If it were a random proc said people would be here complaining how it was so difficult to react to and unintuitive.
    In the case of dragoon you got 2 combos, They both have different positionals and the positional combo after each other so they are the opposite on order in each combo. Samurai has at least 3 combos from what i know, Monk has at least 2. I haven't leveled them to max.
    Last edited by Swnem; Yesterday at 10:28 PM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    You know, the same can be said about ranged having to move and break their DPS rotation. Learning to reduce the needed movement also results in better performance.
    Well, in the case of Dragoon you have an indicator if you did the last one correctly cause it changes your first combo button. But damage is the hint. After you've done it enough, you'll know. Obviously, it shows on your damage parse result too.
    Point being in a game that natively does not have a way to reliably track damage, having damage be the hint is not really great design. I don't use a parser, there's no real way for me to know whether I did it right or not. There's no feedback.

    Also, as some other tried to mistakingly say, they are -not- always the same. Each job works differently. If it were a random proc said people would be here complaining how it was so difficult to react to and unintuitive.
    In the case of dragoon you got 2 combos, They both have different positionals and the positional combo after each other so they are the opposite on order in each combo. Samurai has at least 3 combos from what i know, Monk has at least 2. I haven't leveled them to max.[/QUOTE]

    It's not a mistake, I think it's a misunderstanding on your part.

    When you execute the combo, it's done the same way every time. You might execute the combos in a different order depending on when your buffs/ debuffs fall off, but you execute the combos using the same buttons in the same order every time you do them.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Firstly - let me add that while I do not play melee DPS at the savage/ultimate level currently, I played DRG in ARR/HW at the highest levels (CoB/SCoB and Gordias).

    1) They're not consistent (i.e. not all bosses have them)
    2) The netcode really isn't good enough to support them
    3) Optimal usage of positionals actually minimizes their engagement, i.e. micro stutters to optimize positioning isn't particularly fun
    4) SE has consistently reduced their impact and their punishment for failure (i.e. Not getting Heavy Thrust buff if you missed the flank)
    5) Button bloat is an issue in this game and creating an ability to mitigate the already reduced impact of positionals seems unnecessary
    6) Most positionals are flat damage increases (barring like SAM) which for average players (not using FFLogs/ACT) means that you can't even tell the difference between hitting them or not.
    7) They're fixed in occurrence and frequency. They always happen at the same time, on the same ability, for the same effect. I.e. static and not dynamic makes even less appealing to me.



    I can't say it's a superior game, even if I truly want it to be. If they could clean up the netcode and add some dynamism in the systems and content design it could EASILY be the best MMO on the market, but everything feels and is too rigid.

    I don't quite understand the arena statement as I find that's actually one of the weakest areas in FF14 (Titan alleviates this somewhat, but it's a rare example). Look at a fight like Jaina compared to anything in FF14.

    Don't get me wrong - I actually think that FF14 does extremely well with raid design on average. It's a bit rigid, but the presentation is often top tier and I regularly cite EX primals as some of the best content designed in the modern MMO space.
    1. Well, you can't very much get to the back of walls, so yeah, some bosses give you freebies. There is nothing wrong with that. Just allows more varied raid encounters.
    2. Fair enough. But we are talking 100 ms. Like, it is not unplayable.
    3. If you're going to use micro-stutters your will likely miss some. Bosses move cause tanks got to dodge mechanics and so do you. Like, bosses aren't hit dummies. In the dummy you can make micro-stutters for a nice parse, but in real encounters you will have trouble. Theres 2.5 secs to reposition (well, 2.4 if you got skill speed), it is enough for you to make sure you get the positional right, or decide you can't and use the skill to ignore it.
    4. Ok, but they still matter if you want to maximise damage, and that is important cause enrage timers are tight in FFXIV.
    5. Hmm... button bloat as you put is easy to fix, but i do not think there is ability bloat. The thing is, the 3-hit combos should just be in a single button that changes after each hit. They already do that for PvP, i'm sure they will add that to PvE eventually. But i'll take more buttons over too few buttons anyday.
    6. Numbers and certain procs are the tells. You gonna tell me you don't look at your damage numbers? I suspect you can make them bigger if you want.
    7. Like, i don't even get what you'd want them to be. You want a random skill? Spin the wheel and see what you get? That is usually not very popular.


    Honestly, i see a theme here. The game adds complexity and i see peeps complaining that positionals are boring and theres too many buttons. So, you want WoW? Cause that is what WoW is and by large people recognise the classes in WoW are super boring atm. *shrugs*

    I love positionals. They increase my damage and make my gameplay more dynamic cause i've got to adjust to them, the movement of the boss and the movement of the tank and it's effect on the boss. I dunno how that is not dynamic. But to each their own. We will have to disagree on that one and the conclusion that WoW is better. You say that cause you consider performance to be the most important aspect of a game. While i do defend it quite vehemently as well, i can also excuse a bit of delay or slower pace if the rest of the game is good.
    In my opinion, no matter how responsive WoW is, it is a boring game. Classes are simplistic 3-4 button affairs and end-game is an infinite grind of AP and procced gear.
    FF is a bit slower paced, but i enjoy the classes and it's end game is well structured and finite.

    For me, responsiveness alone doesn't make a better game, though it is important.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Point being in a game that natively does not have a way to reliably track damage, having damage be the hint is not really great design. I don't use a parser, there's no real way for me to know whether I did it right or not. There's no feedback.

    Also, as some other tried to mistakingly say, they are -not- always the same. Each job works differently. If it were a random proc said people would be here complaining how it was so difficult to react to and unintuitive.
    In the case of dragoon you got 2 combos, They both have different positionals and the positional combo after each other so they are the opposite on order in each combo. Samurai has at least 3 combos from what i know, Monk has at least 2. I haven't leveled them to max.

    It's not a mistake, I think it's a misunderstanding on your part.

    When you execute the combo, it's done the same way every time. You might execute the combos in a different order depending on when your buffs/ debuffs fall off, but you execute the combos using the same buttons in the same order every time you do them.
    Get a damage meter or make parses. They won't ban you for that as long as you don't harass other people with it.

    Honestly, i don't know who would want a positional to be random. That is ridiculous to me. You got enough stuff to worry about to land that positional, the last thing you need is to not be able to plan for it.
    Like, i dunno until how far you went but in low level such things would be acceptable, but at end-game they would get you killed.
    Last edited by Swnem; Yesterday at 11:39 PM.

  8. #208
    i agree with number 1. i started playing a samurai and having a 33 gcd rotation, with a specific off gcd filler (or 2, once you have enough speed) between each one was pretty much the most anti-fun thing ive done in an MMO in a long time. made me completely lose interest in the game.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    ....
    Jesus, man.

    You either intentionally misrepresent peoples posts, or you just don't read them. Seriously, I can count at least three places in this last post where you've either intentionally lied about what someone said or just didn't understand what you read.

    Also, drop the whole, "...well, in end-game content..." nonsense. No one here is impressed by it.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Jesus, man.

    You either intentionally misrepresent peoples posts, or you just don't read them. Seriously, I can count at least three places in this last post where you've either intentionally lied about what someone said or just didn't understand what you read.

    Also, drop the whole, "...well, in end-game content..." nonsense. No one here is impressed by it.
    Please, point out where i lied, cause i don't apreciate being slandered just cause you disagree.

    I don't care if you are impressed. Facts are facts. If you didn't play end-game you don't have a grasp on the class and encounter design. Be impressed or unimpressed all you want.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Get a damage meter or make parses. They won't ban you for that as long as you don't harass other people with it.
    1) No. I don't want or need a parser to enjoy the game and I don't want to deal with setting it up and all that.
    2) If I have to have a technically "illegal" third party add-on in order to know whether or not I'm playing a job "correctly" that's bad design.

    Honestly, i don't know who would want a positional to be random. That is ridiculous to me. You got enough stuff to worry about to land that positional, the last thing you need is to not be able to plan for it.
    Like, i dunno until how far you went but in low level such things would be acceptable, but at end-game they would get you killed.
    I never advocated for them to be random, but I do think that having them proc randomly would be more "fun" than what we have now.

    I'm not sure why low level vs end-game is relevant here. I don't think it would get you killed, why do you think it would get you killed? Because getting the proc would require you to adjust and possibly put you into compromising/ decision making situations where you have to decide whether to try to use the proc to maximize damage or resolve the encounter mechanic instead? That sounds like a compelling game play decision to me.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    1) No. I don't want or need a parser to enjoy the game and I don't want to deal with setting it up and all that.
    2) If I have to have a technically "illegal" third party add-on in order to know whether or not I'm playing a job "correctly" that's bad design.



    I never advocated for them to be random, but I do think that having them proc randomly would be more "fun" than what we have now.

    I'm not sure why low level vs end-game is relevant here. I don't think it would get you killed, why do you think it would get you killed? Because getting the proc would require you to adjust and possibly put you into compromising/ decision making situations where you have to decide whether to try to use the proc to maximize damage or resolve the encounter mechanic instead? That sounds like a compelling game play decision to me.
    Then look at the numbers. What do you want? A bling sound when you get the positional right?
    The devs themselves said it was ok to use them as long as you don't harass other people. The breach would be harassment, not using the meter. Would i like an in-game one? Sure. But they are worried about harassment so that's the way they circunvent it.

    It would get you killed cause almost all mechanics one shot you at max level. The things you have to avoid come at a higher pace and you got plenty of off-gcd skills to contend with too. Low level is not representative of the end-game. It's a completely different game.
    Last edited by Swnem; Yesterday at 11:15 PM.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    What I often see, as in the case of even this thread, is someone who states that they dont like something about FF14, followed by rabid vitriol about how "It's not supposed to be like WoW". Very counterproductive and childish imo. But then again, critiquing FF14 in any capacity is met with fire and pitchforks because any criticism is taken as some sort of personal attack.
    Same case with any other game, in any other thread?

    Who would of known you would get a negative response going into a paticular games forum and making a post where your first "point" is calling something about the game awful.
    Last edited by Ravex; Yesterday at 11:31 PM.

  14. #214
    The Patient Sharby's Avatar
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    I kinda agree with the above, gameplay alone doesn't make an MMO good.

    In WoW currently the raids and classes while lackluster function as intended and the combat is largely a success, but the game is still suffering. Because why in the world would I play a sub-based game solely for combat when there are other games that do combat better and are one-time purchases IE MHW or some other variant. This is largely why I feel my more talented friends have dropped WoW.

    I agree that WoW has superior combat (with exceptions) and superior accessibility/UI support via addons, but I still think it is an inferior MMO to FF14 because that really is all it has going for it in my opinion and this isn't enough.

    To me an mmo is supposed to take good elements from single player RPG's and apply them to a multiplayer design, WoW fails hard on that. There is quite literally nothing interesting or engaging to do aside from M+ and Raids, any sort of interest in older content is immediately diminished by the fact that there's still a rigid weekly lockout and you only have a chance to get the item or mount you want. Making it a terrible game for collectors. The game flips on its head every single expansion and it feels like if you're absent for any period of time you suffer setbacks, its riddled with awful timegating which sadly isn't even a recent thing, but the difference now is that the amount of content that isn't gated is super minimal. In FF14 the only timegating I've experienced are beast-tribes which reward mainly vanity content and raid systems like valor and weekly boss lockouts. The fact that I can spam any previous expansion's content as much as I want without restriction on loot feels amazing and if I ever want a challenge I can sync myself down to play it as it was meant to be played. You can't do that in WoW without jumping through hoops.

    WoW outside of raiding is essentially dead or at best extremely barren, there isn't reason to stay logged in, WoW is a terrible game to hang out in and even worse to just chill by yourself on. In FF14 you can goof around with emotes, you have player housing, the profession system is complex enough to where you can spend an entire day working on it. There's shit like player marriages and the Performance feature. The game just lends itself to being able to be enjoyed outside of combat, WoW does not. Even if you aren't interested in any of the above at the very least you have the OPTION to do so which is a win in my book, a consistent difference between the games is that FF14 is built on the idea of giving player options whereas modern WoW seems to take more and more away as the game progresses.

    You can't personalize your character at all outside of armor and only recently do we have the option to hide most slots, despite having a far better transmog system WoW has such a lack of armor variety and really stupid rigid rules. I mean come on we still can't dye gear and gear color variants are locked to different difficulties that are a once a week deal, seriously? Whereas FF goes balls to the wall with player agency in regards to how you customize your avatar including your voice, idle animations and even weird stuff like birthday. In WoW right off the bat you're restricted from what you can or cannot play cosmetically based on the 'story' which in itself doesn't deliver on the expected exclusivity because they can't be assed to make racial skins for classes, Sunwalker Tauren are a great example of this, the fact that some races are straight up better than their counterparts due to shit like racials is ridiculous even if the problem is more or less resolved now, why does it even exist? And If you even make a choice of race WoW's customization is still barbaric, why the hell is shit like eye/lip color still based on your face type? Why are names still so restricted? There isn't an excuse for it to be so bad.

    The combat in FF is at worst, predictable, I find it fun due to the consistency because its extremely satisfying to plan out fights and execute your plans well. Despite being proficient at it, Frost Mage felt like garbage this expansion, it was far too rng-dependent to be enjoyable at all. Not to mention even if you do play relevant specs there's nothing guaranteeing that you won't drop like a rock next balance cycle, I mean hell WoW's balance is as such that some specs are literally being taken in groups of three or more because the power gap is that massive. You don't have anything like that in FF14, everything is viable and the gaps between the worst and best job power-wise are small enough not to be a barrier.

    I won't even touch on the large quality gaps in regards to the story of both games because I feel like its been talked about to death, but I will say that FF14's story could easily be a standalone RPG without much changing.

    I think the main reason FF14 players seem to be adverse to critique on the game is because a large amount of criticism the game receives is the same shit, if you strip away everything else but combat of course WoW is gonna' come out ahead every time, but I feel like fans think this is unfair because the game is so much more than its battle system. You're free to have your own idea of how important gameplay is.


    TLDR: At the end of the day, WoW has its strengths, the gameplay and polished UI as well as third party support being some of them.I genuinely believe these to be superior to FF14's, but it is extremely lacking in all other regards in my opinion, making it essentially a sub-based combat game. Which renders it inferior to other games that are also combat focused because they have better combat and no sub. This isn't to say FF14 is without problems, but in my opinion FF14 is a much better game holistically and an example of a proper MMORPG, so if I can enjoy all that it has to offer at the cost of slightly worse combat its a no brainer to me which I prefer to play.
    Honorary member of the Baine fanclub, the only member really.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Then look at the numbers. What do you want? A bling sound when you get the positional right?
    The devs themselves said it was ok to use them as long as you don't harass other people. The breach would be harassment, not using the meter. Would i like an in-game one? Sure. But they are worried about harassment so that's the way they circunvent it.

    It would get you killed cause almost all mechanics one shot you at max level. The things you have to avoid come at a higher pace and you got plenty of off-gcd skills to contend with too. Low level is not representative of the end-game. It's a completely different game.
    I’m well aware of how end game works. You didn’t answer the question. Why would a proc kill you in end game?

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I’m well aware of how end game works. You didn’t answer the question. Why would a proc kill you in end game?
    Oh wait, i think i see the problem. So you want it to be a proc, but that you know what it is ahead of time and it just randomly happens? Yeah, i'm ok with that. I am sure it will happen eventually.

    Would it be better though? Depends on preference i'd say. But i'm sure it might happen on some classes.
    Last edited by Swnem; Today at 12:51 AM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    Who would of known you would get a negative response going into a paticular games forum and making a post where your first "point" is calling something about the game awful.
    Because that's what reasonable people do? Discuss things that they're involved with, positives and negatives alike?

  18. #218
    I think FF14 is a great game overall, but i do agree at some points with OP. The combat is turnoff for me, as he was saying it's unresponsive and bloated, the melee jobs feel overly complex and playing dragoon was a huge mistake, if I ever come back I'll probably go with bard or redmage.

    The leveling is one of my favorite parts, and the storytelling of this new exp was insane but when i came back to the game with friends that were new I heard a lot of complains about how stupid the leveling 1-50 felt, with bad quest design and poor storytelling.

    I'm also not a big fan of the FF14 Itemization, it's too bland and predictable, there's no spice or excitement in getting new loot, every piece of gear is just a boring stat stick.

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