A decent MMO plagued by some serious problems that make it unplayable in the long run

[Katchii]

Its pretty simple, I dont sell stuff. So whenever i complete a quest that gives me a piece it's going into inventory. When it's full i simply discard the bad looking ones or crap. CBA with selling this.

That's fair. I get it. Inventory management is not fun.

[shadowmatrix]

My personal problems with crafting, probably nonissues for other players..
Timed nodes - They are fine for collectables but suck as part of regular recipes.
Collectables - Why are there collectables that have no use? Every one of them should have a 24/7 turn in spot with custom deliveries being a side option for better rewards.
Travel - Each expansion's recipes should use ingredients from just that expansion. I don't want to travel to 4 different spots to make one item.
Job quests - Job quests that teach a new mechanic should be rigged towards success, catching 40 fish because the HQ I need won't show up teaches me jack squat.

Diadem - Well this one gets it's own section.
Firmament lacking features - Why does the place meant for crafters and gathers not have proper tool and gear vendors? Where is the marketboard? Where is the materials vendor?
Needs to be self contained - At this point everyone sees Diadem as the powerleveling area, gathers should be able to get everything needed for Skybuilder's recipes inside Diadem. Why is there nowhere to farm shards, crystals, and clusters? Why not add nodes to get non-Skybuilders materials? Why gives us cloudfishing at 45 if we can't use it there?

[BiggestNoob]

It's not just you. It's a very common complaint (it's bad because of spaghetti code) and the only reason they haven't addressed it yet is because they ahven't found an actual solution.

The other guy is literally saying "don't play the way you want, play the way I do, then you're fine". That's just terrible advice.

For collectors or fashionistas (glamours), inventory is a huge issue and has been since the game came out. Paying extra each month for retainers is also not a solution, but I can see why, there is literally a limit or the servers would be overloaded. Removing alot of HQ items might be the first step to addressing it.

???

The game shoves random shit into your inventory, the correct response is to get rid of shit you don't want.

Try this another way.

A: my apartment is dirty, I don't like it
B: clean it up
C: A telling you to live how they want is giving you bad advice, it's not you, it's just reality that's got you down

?????????

Sadge game doesn't auto-level you and kill bosses for you too.

[Zequill]

In this thread, a lot :


Replace the names with gaming related name and you have it.

[draugril]

Trusts are just bad in general. They're not only slow, they're predictably slow. If that makes sense. They're just so painfully boring.

I know a lot of people love them, and they are handy for getting through MSQ stuff without breaking up the flow of the story by waiting in a queue for 20 minutes, but honestly they're just pretty awful outside of that.

Even with DPS jobs, you're probably better off just queueing for dungeons normally and doing other XP-gaining activities while waiting in the queue.

The thing with Trusts is, if you hate them or see them as pointless... you're kind of missing the point. They're not meant for players like you. They're for those people that are intimidated by doing dungeons with other people. Those with social anxiety. Those who refuse to watch guides on YouTube.

A lot of FFXIV is designed like this - they don't try to make features that apply to everyone, or primarily those to the most informed and competent players. They make a wide breadth of content and hope that you like a few of them. For good or for ill.

[ippollite]

The thing with Trusts is, if you hate them or see them as pointless... you're kind of missing the point. They're not meant for players like you. They're for those people that are intimidated by doing dungeons with other people. Those with social anxiety. Those who refuse to watch guides on YouTube.

A lot of FFXIV is designed like this - they don't try to make features that apply to everyone, or primarily those to the most informed and competent players. They make a wide breadth of content and hope that you like a few of them. For good or for ill.

Can i offer a more nuanced alternative that both supports and disagrees with you? (I mean, im obviously going to, but just want to pre-empt the 'feel' of what im gonna say).

Here's why i like trusts:

From about Braflox i have always watched a guide on the dungeon im about to run (usually two).
Im the healer. The tank dies? No worries. The dps die. No worries (are there any story dungeon enrage checks?). I res you. We win. But if i screw up... sometimes its fine (ive been carried through a couple of dungeons floor tanking, but mostly, if i mess up, its likely a wipe). Everyone else gets to go in blind and get a redo, as a healer, i kinda dont.
So i cant just run in blind and hope for the best. I feel incredible pressure on the group's progress. Maybe i need to get to know more pallys. But it feels (in a blind context - since i usually do a dungeon once to beat the msq), that i dont get the luxury to just wing it.

But i wanna just wing it like everyone else does. I want the excitement of not knowing whats coming and potentially messing up. But i cant. For whatever reason (anxiety - you dont want to be the cause of the wipe and honestly, youre gonna feel like it any time someone dies)
So trust is a great way for me to go in blind, mess up, and then LEARN the mechanics (because if you screw up even one of them and die, its a full party wipe).

And if i understand the dungeon at that level, im way less worried or anxious about dealing with it in duty finder. I know, if we wipe, its not my fault. I beat this on trust. So i did all the mechanics and hit all the checks. This makes me more likely to just queue and help others through it.

Im fine running dungeons with other players, but i'd just love to learn the mechanics first then group up (heck, they could give you a training exercise where you skip the trash, and dont get the msq clear until you run it with other players and id take it).

What i hate about trust (as a healer):

Every. Single. Trash. Pull. Is a three minute affair. My holy is now basically a stun (the dps is woeful). My assize is still decent and my blood lilly is nice, but not quite as nuclear as i was led to believe. Its just so slow on the least engaging parts of the dungeon.
Thats all i hate about it. Well, that and the fact that if i have to choose the exarch as a tank (only 2 shb dungeons) i spend so much more time healing and further curtailing my dps.
Oh, and y'shtola plus alisaie is a terrible combination which i accidentally picked for the first time in amaurot. The game kept recommending it, so i figured "maybe ryne isnt optimal". What a mistake.

[Delever]

Can i offer a more nuanced alternative that both supports and disagrees with you? (I mean, im obviously going to, but just want to pre-empt the 'feel' of what im gonna say).

Here's why i like trusts:

From about Braflox i have always watched a guide on the dungeon im about to run (usually two).
Im the healer. The tank dies? No worries. The dps die. No worries (are there any story dungeon enrage checks?). I res you. We win. But if i screw up... sometimes its fine (ive been carried through a couple of dungeons floor tanking, but mostly, if i mess up, its likely a wipe). Everyone else gets to go in blind and get a redo, as a healer, i kinda dont.
So i cant just run in blind and hope for the best. I feel incredible pressure on the group's progress. Maybe i need to get to know more pallys. But it feels (in a blind context - since i usually do a dungeon once to beat the msq), that i dont get the luxury to just wing it.

But i wanna just wing it like everyone else does. I want the excitement of not knowing whats coming and potentially messing up. But i cant. For whatever reason (anxiety - you dont want to be the cause of the wipe and honestly, youre gonna feel like it any time someone dies)
So trust is a great way for me to go in blind, mess up, and then LEARN the mechanics (because if you screw up even one of them and die, its a full party wipe).

And if i understand the dungeon at that level, im way less worried or anxious about dealing with it in duty finder. I know, if we wipe, its not my fault. I beat this on trust. So i did all the mechanics and hit all the checks. This makes me more likely to just queue and help others through it.

Im fine running dungeons with other players, but i'd just love to learn the mechanics first then group up (heck, they could give you a training exercise where you skip the trash, and dont get the msq clear until you run it with other players and id take it).

What i hate about trust (as a healer):

Every. Single. Trash. Pull. Is a three minute affair. My holy is now basically a stun (the dps is woeful). My assize is still decent and my blood lilly is nice, but not quite as nuclear as i was led to believe. Its just so slow on the least engaging parts of the dungeon.
Thats all i hate about it. Well, that and the fact that if i have to choose the exarch as a tank (only 2 shb dungeons) i spend so much more time healing and further curtailing my dps.
Oh, and y'shtola plus alisaie is a terrible combination which i accidentally picked for the first time in amaurot. The game kept recommending it, so i figured "maybe ryne isnt optimal". What a mistake.

Yeah trusts are slow af but this kind of has to be the case otherwise you run the risk of making them just as or even more optimal than queuing and players will always pick the more convenient route. They serve their purpose as a means to alleviate stress from people who do not want to run dungeons with other players and for that they are totally fine. Personally I have never used them once. They re still all sitting at whatever level they start at (I assume 70?).

[ippollite]

Yeah trusts are slow af but this kind of has to be the case otherwise you run the risk of making them just as or even more optimal than queuing and players will always pick the more convenient route. They serve their purpose as a means to alleviate stress from people who do not want to run dungeons with other players and for that they are totally fine. Personally I have never used them once. They re still all sitting at whatever level they start at (I assume 70?).

Yupyup. It seems like its 'intended' to alleviate dps queues whilst removing dpsers from the duty finder and thereby shortening the number of dps in the duty finder queue. But its pure 'law of unintended consequences'. It cures the symptom but not the issue. The issue is that healers carry too much weight in the success/failure in a dungeon run. The trust system incentivises them to 'practice' whilst hard punishing them by their genuine lack of dps. This in turn makes me NEVER want to run that dungeon again as a healer once im done with it.

I dunno if theres an easy solution here (aside giving everyone a res, even on a cd, PLEASE DO EXACTLY THAT!). My instinct is this: I dont mind wiping on a boss from failing a mechanic check (i would love more checkpoints though so i can get back to the boss faster and learn quicker). But i really hate the time it takes me to clear through the trash.

Ah, im probably being entitled. I like playing with others and teaching them what to do. But those wipes in player dungeons hurt your heart. In trusts, its just personally annoying (and much less stressful).

[Sorrior]

If you're using that much actual Inventory or Armory space for glamour stuff, rather than the glamour chest, you're doing it wrong IMO. Or you're a freaking glamour fiend who's already used up all the glamour chest slots and have that much overflow...in which case there's no amount of inventory space that would ever alleviate your problem, lol.

I personally don't see the point, you'll never use or need access to every glamour item available all the time, but can understand people just being obsessed with having all of those items. This is where I agree that FFXIV should take a page from WoW's book with the transmog library. because having those options available IS nice, but unnecessary IMO.

There's a few exceptions that you can't store in the Armoire or the Glamour chest, but not enough to be a big deal, IMO. Again, unless you hoard and collect literally EVERYTHING. Which again, there's no amount of inventory upgrades that would alleviate that issue, no game gives the character enough inventory slots to hold literally every item there is in the game at once.

Glamor chests tiny and gets filled day 1 every exoansion. I collect most green items and am far from alone in this.

Also wows transmog really isn't that great a system. Better the ffxiv oh hell yes(insofar as having a fully unlockablw wardrobe/glamor log) but RIFT, Wildstar, GW2..frankly most mmos blow both wow and ffxiv away with customizability via things like no class restrictions etc.

For simple appearance choices though ffxiv blow wow away. If they could add a glamor log it would instantly be far superior to wows system imo...And fix inventory issues

[Delever]

Yupyup. It seems like its 'intended' to alleviate dps queues whilst removing dpsers from the duty finder and thereby shortening the number of dps in the duty finder queue. But its pure 'law of unintended consequences'. It cures the symptom but not the issue. The issue is that healers carry too much weight in the success/failure in a dungeon run. The trust system incentivises them to 'practice' whilst hard punishing them by their genuine lack of dps. This in turn makes me NEVER want to run that dungeon again as a healer once im done with it.

I dunno if theres an easy solution here (aside giving everyone a res, even on a cd, PLEASE DO EXACTLY THAT!). My instinct is this: I dont mind wiping on a boss from failing a mechanic check (i would love more checkpoints though so i can get back to the boss faster and learn quicker). But i really hate the time it takes me to clear through the trash.

Ah, im probably being entitled. I like playing with others and teaching them what to do. But those wipes in player dungeons hurt your heart. In trusts, its just personally annoying (and much less stressful).

In general, the role of the healer and to an extent the tank carries more visible weight than that of the dps without necessarily that being the case. Its just a lot more apparent when a tank or a healer fucks up, especially in a raid environment, thus making it more stressful. DPS carry a lot of weight too its just not as apparent as typically a dps dying does not signal the end of the run like a tank cleaving the party does or a healer timing their aoe heal badly on a nuke.

[Swnem]

Watching a streamer, he bought something off of the Marketboard and went to go find a mail-moogle to get it - WoW reflex, as you have to go to a mailbox to get items you buy off the AH.
He explained it to the audience who seems to largely FFXIV players, and they called it bad/garbage/trash design.

Meanwhile, he wanted to post something on the Market and went into the Marketboard, and his audience were telling him that you have to go into the retainer to post on the Market.

Like- that's some ass-backwards design there.
WoW having AH management in the AH, but picking up from a Mailbox = bad.
FFXIV having items from the Market going into your bag, but having to manage the Market from a separate NPC in a separate menu = acceptable.
wut

Theres a retainer bell just steps away from the market board. It's just different. It's part of the imersion of the game though. You are sending your servant to go sell your stuff in a market. It makes sense.

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Im absolutely sure that...

If you mono game, every single apparent inconvenience comes from your experience as a mono-gamer. I struggle to empathise with you. Jusy play disco elysium and lets discuss it.

This so much. Oh it's so difficult to make them see they are just used to the way things work in WoW they see anything different as wrong.
WoW has conditioned people, and some can't break free anymore. It's kind of like the Matrix now that i think about it. XD

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I can't actually believe people are advocating for 14s inventory system over wow's.

To each their own... I guess.

Honestly if we are being pedantic, all inventory systems suck. But, it is mostly cause of all the trash they want us to pick up.

For example, Guild wars has an amazing mats material bank. Your mats are just a number and they don't take inventory space.
But GW2 has small bags, asks you to give them real money to expand it and drop lots and lots of trash on their zones.

WoW doesnt ask you to pay, but also drops tons of trash that fill your bags. Lots of different pips of anima and archivist relics, and due to it's convoluted gear system, you are forced to hold lots of gear on your bags too. Oh you gotta hold your mats too.

FF's has more compartments where you can stash your mats such as chocobo or retainer but it hardly drops trash or unique currencies in it's zones, so my bags don't fill up so often. But, of course it's a bigger hassle to manage and it does ask you to pay for more.

All in all... they all suck. None of them is good cause they all have design flaws.

[ippollite]

In general, the role of the healer and to an extent the tank carries more visible weight than that of the dps without necessarily that being the case. Its just a lot more apparent when a tank or a healer fucks up, especially in a raid environment, thus making it more stressful. DPS carry a lot of weight too its just not as apparent as typically a dps dying does not signal the end of the run like a tank cleaving the party does or a healer timing their aoe heal badly on a nuke.

I cant cut tanks a break because i can res them. At any time. With a swiftcast. I just hit two buttons (off gcd i believe). So long as im alive they can be raised and with moderately targeted dps kiting/baiting mechanics (its normal dungeons, not savage), kiting is a thing that can work (sans tankbuster). But i have a swiftcast/res right there waiting for the tank and a benediction...

Tanks... i love you... you figure out so much i wont. But you dont have to deal with the same group pressure a healer does. If you dont believe me, play a healer.

[Delever]

I would disagree, really.

As a healer, I just kinda get to follow along and do whatever I want, however I want, within reason. There's responsibility, but it's pretty low key. As long as everyone is alive and you did some DPS, chances are no one really cares about your playstyle that much. It's super comfy and relaxed, even when it gets a bit hectic.

As a tank, I'm expected to do things exactly one way, and the whole group is watching and expecting something. Take a step in the wrong direction and someone is going to be mad. Don't pull quite the way someone is used to and they'll be mad. Rotate the boss one way and not the other, and someone is going to get mad. (I once had a Monk bothering me for DAYS about how I ruined their positionals on a boss because I sidestepped a telegraph. And even if they don't say something because GCBTW, you know they're thinking it.)

Not to mention being reliant on the healer to make you look good. If the healer doesn't keep you up people are going to be thinking that you failed in some way, too.

I just feel way more stressed as a tank, even if it's actually much easier than healing on paper.

I was about to share a similar story where a MNK complained to me about missing a positional after the boss turned because I side stepped a telegraph. Like bro what am I supposed to do??

[Lane]

Tanks and healers each have their own brand of stress. As a tank, I'm expected to know everything. I should know where to go, what to do, every mechanic, etc. Add to that the pressure of the party almost always wanting to go faster than I want. I've been yanked around by healers, had DPS pull for me, the works.

As a healer, I'm expected to fix other people's F-ups and, if I can't, I look like a bad healer. It's not like I can say, "You're the worst tank/group I've ever had to heal and it's amazing we made it through this place at all." Healing can be relaxing with a competent group that goes at a moderate pace, but I'm not getting those as much as I am people who don't know what they're doing and, worse, think they're capable of doing much more than they actually are.

Also wows transmog really isn't that great a system. Better the ffxiv oh hell yes(insofar as having a fully unlockablw wardrobe/glamor log) but RIFT, Wildstar, GW2..frankly most mmos blow both wow and ffxiv away with customizability via things like no class restrictions etc.

I loved Rift's system. The only good part about WoW is the appearance database. I am WoW poor, I can't afford that 250k mount and I also can't really afford to spend hundreds of gold on transmog every time I get gear upgrades (or the inconvenience of having to travel to a city that offers transmog). I've only really been able to enjoy it on heirlooms because each piece is only 1g. Aside from hiding appearances, which costs nothing, none of my WoW chars have a transmog. It's just too expensive and too much of a hassle to maintain.

I was hoping glamour plates were going to be overlays like Rift had, but was disappointed to learn that it glamours over the gear. Yeah, I can buy dispellers, but that's not what I was hoping glamour plates were. They're still better than WoW though aside from not being able to use them outside of cities.

[Frostfred]

-snip-

Didn't someone mention here that the trust system adjusts to player power, and the instances take more or less the same time whatever you do? I.e. they do more damage when you just afk around, and less when you're going in with a well geared DD and do a lot? Note that I cannot confirm, I'm not even there yet in the game, I just seem to remember the discussion back then. But in that case, being a healer in the system would be quite annoying, as it would prevent you from playing the most "effective" way - which is pulling some stuff, then going afk and do other things. ^^

As for dungeon anxiety: I get where you come from. I've watched guides in the beginning for the same reasons. As a healer, it's much worse than as a dd. However, at some point I stopped, because I was spoilering so much of the story and taking a lot of fun out of the game. And it's going really well, for the most part. There are very few mechanics in dungeons, which are not intuitive AND cause a death if you don't play them right. In most of those cases, you'll be fine just imitating what the other players do. Also just writing that you're new in the beginning helps - if there's such a mechanic, at least sometimes someone will mention it before the boss. Most of the time it gets ignores, but as said, most of the time there's nothing special.

There is one exception to this, however, and these are trials. There are lots of fairly unique and sometimes not so intuitive mechanics. An example would be on Lakshmi. There isn't a good indication when to use the extra button, or that you get charges for it when collecting the orbs. If you didn't see a guide, you'll probably die there.

[Rogalicus]

And yet somehow I don't have a problem, even with the incredible amount of stuff I carry around that I listed.

The game gives us a TON of inventory space. Outside of extreme hoarders, there really shouldn't be any situation where you're stressed for space.

And yet I've listed all the junk the game throws at you, which should've answered your question. If you don't have this problem, it's only because you are sitting at the level cap without touching lower content. I've played plenty of MMOs, including F2P trash, but this is the only one where inventory management constantly annoyed me.

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???

The game shoves random shit into your inventory, the correct response is to get rid of shit you don't want.

Try this another way.

A: my apartment is dirty, I don't like it
B: clean it up
C: A telling you to live how they want is giving you bad advice, it's not you, it's just reality that's got you down

?????????

Sadge game doesn't auto-level you and kill bosses for you too.

This is the first time I've seen anyone essentially "gitgudding" when it concerns inventory. Honestly, it's a new low even for GCBTW.

[Itori]

It has nothing to do with level or anything else, it's just...sell stuff, get rid of junk, etc. You don't even need to jump through hoops to do it, just hit up any vendor or just destroy it on the spot or desynth it if it bothers you.

There's SO MUCH inventory space in this game that I don't even understand how people can run into issues. There's nothing that's actually dropping SO MUCH junk that you're overwhelmed by it.



It's not "git gud" it's literally just saying that if you have too much junk in your bags then...get rid of the junk! Other than glamour fans having issues with the dresser storage, this shouldn't be hard for anyone.

Its next to impossible to reason with someone who’s dead set on trying to find flaws in non WoW games, you can tell them that you get 200 inventory slots right out of character select screen, 150 for each retainer so 300, and another what 80? Once you unlock your chocobo, and they'll still find a reason to complain about 580 slots.

Atleast we dont need a 3rd party addon and drop 1k gold on 30slot bags just to have more space.

[shadowmatrix]

WoW doesnt ask you to pay, but also drops tons of trash that fill your bags. Lots of different pips of anima and archivist relics, and due to it's convoluted gear system, you are forced to old lots of gear on your bags too. Oh you gotta hold your mats too.

FF's has more compartments where you can stash your mats such as chocobo or retainer but it hardly drops less trash or unique currencies in it's zones, so my bags don't fill up so often. But, of course it's a bigger hassle to manage and it does ask you to pay for more.

All in all... they all suck. None of them is good cause they all have design flaws.

WOW has a reagent bank to store your materials that lets you craft directly from the bank. 100 gold for 98 slots.

[Schmittay]

???

The game shoves random shit into your inventory, the correct response is to get rid of shit you don't want.

Try this another way.

A: my apartment is dirty, I don't like it
B: clean it up
C: A telling you to live how they want is giving you bad advice, it's not you, it's just reality that's got you down

?????????

Sadge game doesn't auto-level you and kill bosses for you too.

Wut??? I'm not talking about the random enemy drops. Did you even read my post? Try again after you've read and understood the kind of player I am talking about. Cheers.

[ippollite]

Hey Ipps, just out of curiosity how many different classes have you played in dungeons?
Whats that? Just a whm? And you're trying to make an argument about the different expectations of the various roles in dungeons and why healers clearly have it worse? AND you're complaining that 'if they dont believe you, they should play a healer"?

Well this is awkward...