Page 12 of 31 FirstFirst ...
2
10
11
12
13
14
22
... LastLast
  1. #221
    I sure hope none of this is gonna go to waste by Blizzard completely ignoring everyone and doing as they see fit. It really is a monopoly and I can't wait for it to end. There is unfortunately currently no real competition to WoW. If there was one, Blizzard wouldn't be disrespecting the players so much.

  2. #222
    It was never intended to "make sense", You must do the content before you can skip the content.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by 1know View Post
    It was never intended to "make sense", You must do the content before you can skip the content.
    Which begs the questions:

    Why doesn't the content design account for flying so that it doesn't result in a "skip".

    Why is flight still locked even after the content has bern done?

    Why is blizzard doing things that don't make sense?

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by 1know View Post
    It was never intended to "make sense", You must do the content before you can skip the content.
    How many times? A thousand is enough before it can be skipped? I just drained all my energy by doing my daily list of chores in BfA's dull grindfest zones. I have no more energy or desire left to do anything else that is actually fun like....um...ah....can't think of anything tbh, it's BfA after all. Well, maybe leveling a new toon or something I guess?
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2019-10-16 at 11:31 AM.

  5. #225
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,389
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I would agree with this, but only with the assumption that Blizzard won't deviate from the ground-centric design.
    Won't or can't. Yeah, implicit in my argument is the assumption that Blizzard fail to come up with some radical change to their content design philosophy that would meaningfully change the parameters of how the game is experienced.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What they SHOULD be doing is designing zones to use flight from the very beginning.
    Assuming this is feasible. That being said, for me it's not a particularly big deal. I generally enjoy the experience of exploring and discovering new content from the ground. But if they could make what you suggest and it's works well, why not? I am even fine with some zones never having flying at all, provided there is sufficient rationale for it, and provided that they can address the problem of tedious travel.

    Timeless Isle was an interesting experiment. They created a zone specifically designed to never have flying. I think it kind of worked, and while it was certainly a fun zone to play in for a few months, I can't help but wonder whether all the effort they went to make sure it would never have flying was worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Or, barring that, have flying, once unlocked, provide access to additional content or zones which can only be accessed via flying.
    Not much point in arguing against this.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Ideally with a late-expansion content release, instead of two grounded zones which flight shits on completely - like what happened with Nazjatar and Mechagon - we'd have one zone specifically designed to use flying, and one in which flying was disabled.

    Thus giving players of both camps the opportunity to FULLY enjoy the content style they prefer, but without completely denying one or the other like with the Pathfinder system.
    To be honest, I don't entirely buy this idea of players preferring the style of play without flying. Because the simple fact of the matter is that pretty much everyone will use flying given the chance. It really is a strange dichotomy that you'll get players who will both complain incessantly about how much of a cancer flying is, hand waving away their own hypocrisy in using flying by making spurious claims like that convenience of flying "forces" them to use it. Sorry, but to me that's just BS.

    I think the biggest difference between the two camps is that the anti-flying brigade like to blame flying for the fact that they no longer experience the game as they did in the past.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2019-10-16 at 01:07 PM.

  6. #226
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    20,131
    Back in TBC 5K gold was a LOT and it took time and effort to access epic flight (60% gryphons were pretty much useless).
    Pathfinder is supposed to mirror that.

    I have no problem with the achievements themselves but having to wait a year for the second part is, and always has been BS.

  7. #227
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,389
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Which begs the questions:

    Why doesn't the content design account for flying so that it doesn't result in a "skip".
    My guess: It's easier said than done.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Why is flight still locked even after the content has bern done?
    Because Blizzard are convinced that flying detracts from the game experience. We might think that we want it, but we really don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Why is blizzard doing things that don't make sense?
    Because to them it makes absolute sense. The fact that it makes sense to them is based on two central pillars:

    1) They are partially correct. Flying does change the way we experience content, specifically in that it allows us to bypass certain design features that they put into the world that was intended to enhance the gameplay experience. What they don't account for is how the value of such features is affected over time.
    2) Confirmation bias from the highly vocal anti-flying brigade minority, who, by all accounts, are simply immune to reason and logic.

  8. #228
    Banned CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    The Depths Bellow
    Posts
    1,391
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Dude, as I already said, I was using the Toulmin method of argumentation to assess your argument. It's not my opinion that your argument is lacking. It is objectively lacking because it lacks the basic elements that are required to construct an argument. Hence why I keep focussing on the difference between an assertion and an argument.

    We may not agree on matters of opinion. But the simple fact is that, to date, your "argument" to support the notion of "flying is cancer" is close to non-existent. I explained exactly why but clearly you have no interest in logically answering that because, simply put, you can't.
    I explained why it's bad for the game, you didn't explain why it's good for the game and didn't prove my points wrong. So I have no reason to stop believing reality.

    Just because you say you don't like my argument doesn't do anything. They're still good logical points backed by technical aspects of game design and issues the game is suffering from right now, and explained why it's coming from flying being implemented. Just because you disagree doesn't mean that's not true. It only means you see something different than reality.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    To be honest, I don't entirely buy this idea of players preferring the style of play without flying. Because the simple fact of the matter is that pretty much everyone will use flying given the chance. It really is a strange dichotomy that you'll get players who will both complain incessantly about how much of a cancer flying is, hand waving away their own hypocrisy in using flying by making spurious claims like that convenience of flying "forces" them to use it. Sorry, but to me that's just BS.

    I think the biggest difference between the two camps is that the anti-flying brigade like to blame flying for the fact that they no longer experience the game as they did in the past.
    It was more of a commentary on how the current implementation of flying doesn't actually add anything to the game. It just wrecks the existing ground-based content and acts as a "skip", as someone said earlier. I don't view that as being particularly good design.

    If a zone is meant to be experienced from the ground, then that's how it should always be. As you mentioned earlier with Timeless Isle. But I think the opposite is also true, with zones such as Stormpeaks. The problem we're seeing with the current implementation of Pathfinder and flying is that it takes zones that are intended to be played from the ground and ruins them, while not really giving flight a lot of value. It's the worst of both worlds.

    The reason I suggested having both types of gameplay in separate zones was to avoid this problem. You even said above that you general enjoy the experience from the ground. But you also brought up a very good point about how everyone will use flying if it's available. Blizzard is doing their players a great disservice by not providing and preserving both styles of gameplay in the open world.

    The Pathfinder design philosophy has been bad from the beginning. It's till bad right now, and should be taken back to the drawing board. It's limiting both players, and in my most sincere opinion, the developers as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    My guess: It's easier said than done.
    And taking the easier path got us both WoD and BfA, two of the worst expansions to date. It also got us Argus, which wasn't nearly as good as it could have been.

    Blizzard taking the easy way out is not a good situation. When they stop innovating and challenging themselves to make a better game, it causes poor results.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Because Blizzard are convinced that flying detracts from the game experience. We might think that we want it, but we really don't.
    And we all know how that turned out. I made this point earlier in the thread: Blizzard needs to stop trying to tell players what they enjoy, and REALLY needs to start listening instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    2) Confirmation bias from the highly vocal anti-flying brigade minority, who, by all accounts, are simply immune to reason and logic.
    They don't need reason or logic. They have papa-Blizz to tell them how to think, how to have fun, and what is good. Didn't you know?

  10. #230
    Stood in the Fire Agrossive's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    352
    I agree here, I love to play wow here and there but I dont have the energy to sink into a daily chore in order to get all the fun stuff like flying and allied races.

    They really need to break this pathfinder precedent and do something different, it's so annoying being handicapped because I didnt play everyday.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    I explained why it's bad for the game,.
    Flying is only bad for the game when the game is specifically designed to ignore that flying exists.

    The problem is that there's no way to prove that flying is actually bad for the game. We have the word of Blizzard devs who have, in their own past, expressed dislike for flying. That doesn't mean flying is inherently bad for the game. It just means some Blizzard devs with authority and influence in the design process don't like it.

    On the other hand, we DO have correlation between hard numbers of expansion like TBC and WotLK, wherein flying WAS part of the overall design of the game, and the highest population the game has ever had. It might not prove that flying is good for the game, but it IS significant evidence that flying is not BAD for the game. Because the popularity of the game when flying was part of the design just doesn't support the idea of it being bad.

    I think we can all agree that flying does bad things for an open world which doesn't account for it. But that's the entire crux of the argument people are making: Flying can be good in a design that actually uses it.

    I don't think we'll ever get any real resolution to this argument. But I think it will be VERY interesting to see the results and popularity when Blizzard re-releases "Classic TBC" and flying.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-10-16 at 03:12 PM.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    My guess: It's easier said than done.



    Because Blizzard are convinced that flying detracts from the game experience. We might think that we want it, but we really don't.



    Because to them it makes absolute sense. The fact that it makes sense to them is based on two central pillars:

    1) They are partially correct. Flying does change the way we experience content, specifically in that it allows us to bypass certain design features that they put into the world that was intended to enhance the gameplay experience. What they don't account for is how the value of such features is affected over time.
    2) Confirmation bias from the highly vocal anti-flying brigade minority, who, by all accounts, are simply immune to reason and logic.
    Because pro-flyers aren't? Because as I see it pro-flyers are compeltey unwilling to budge from "I should get it unlocked for gold, just as it always was". They don't take into consideration just how much easier it is to attain gold now than it was back then. Pro-flyers as just as immune to reason and logic as anyone else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrossive View Post
    I agree here, I love to play wow here and there but I dont have the energy to sink into a daily chore in order to get all the fun stuff like flying and allied races.

    They really need to break this pathfinder precedent and do something different, it's so annoying being handicapped because I didnt play everyday.
    You don't have to play every day to get it. I didn't come close to playing every day and I got Pathfinder done easily. The only thing "handicapping" you is personal laziness and personal entitlement.

    Pathfinder is perfectly fine. Players need to simply stop their laziness and entitlement.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Because pro-flyers aren't? Because as I see it pro-flyers are compeltey unwilling to budge from "I should get it unlocked for gold, just as it always was". They don't take into consideration just how much easier it is to attain gold now than it was back then. Pro-flyers as just as immune to reason and logic as anyone else.
    Only a handfull of people are asking for that. And to be completely, brutally honestly, even a gold-purchase unlock of flight would be better than the arbitrary 8 month lockout that has no basis in gameplay or reason. We can argue that in a civil manner if you like.

    I think you'll find that if you actually look at the entire spectrum of people talking about this subject, a vast majority are ok with doing the work to unlock flight, in both camps. Where things break down is when the lockout overstays its welcome.

  14. #234
    Banned CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    The Depths Bellow
    Posts
    1,391
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Flying is only bad for the game when the game is specifically designed to ignore that flying exists.

    The problem is that there's no way to prove that flying is actually bad for the game. We have the word of Blizzard devs who have, in their own past, expressed dislike for flying. That doesn't mean flying is inherently bad for the game. It just means some Blizzard devs with authority and influence in the design process don't like it.

    On the other hand, we DO have correlation between hard numbers of expansion like TBC and WotLK, wherein flying WAS part of the overall design of the game, and the highest population the game has ever had. It might not prove that flying is good for the game, but it IS significant evidence that flying is not BAD for the game. Because the popularity of the game when flying was part of the design just doesn't support the idea of it being bad.

    I think we can all agree that flying does bad things for an open world which doesn't account for it. But that's the entire crux of the argument people are making: Flying can be good in a design that actually uses it.
    And WoW's design doesn't use flying, it's literally just a luxury to have it easier, it brings nothing to the gameplay and only takes away from stuff that are made to be done without flying. That makes flying bad for the game.

    Also, sales numbers don't really mean that much, it only represents if people still enjoy the game enough to keep playing it, players are not judges of quality, if anything they have bad taste just like the music they listen to. Enjoying something doesn't make it good. I enjoy flying in WoW, but at the same time I'm aware of all the terrible things it does, and did, to the game. But it's just so tedious to go through that shit content in a slower version that I end up liking it. That's the difference between subjectivity and objectivity.

    I like flying, but I recognize its cancerous role in the devlopment of the game, I'm not sitting there defending something I enjoy, I'm just pointing out why it's bad, regardless of how I feel about it, unlike that other guy who thinks his feelings are a point of argument.

  15. #235
    Stood in the Fire Agrossive's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Because pro-flyers aren't? Because as I see it pro-flyers are compeltey unwilling to budge from "I should get it unlocked for gold, just as it always was". They don't take into consideration just how much easier it is to attain gold now than it was back then. Pro-flyers as just as immune to reason and logic as anyone else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You don't have to play every day to get it. I didn't come close to playing every day and I got Pathfinder done easily. The only thing "handicapping" you is personal laziness and personal entitlement.

    Pathfinder is perfectly fine. Players need to simply stop their laziness and entitlement.
    I dont want to spend my free time doing boring ass dailies, I'd rather spend my limited time on something fun.

    Laziness and entitlement have zero to do with it, your just slapping on recycled labels that in no way apply. Use your brain instead of mindlessly regurgitating what other people say.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Because the Blizzard Devs have got this notion into their heads that flying is a cancer to the game and that really, even if think we want flying, we'll enjoy the game more if we don't get flying. Sadly a loud vocal minority agreed with them which simply validated their delusion.

    I guess we should be thankful we even get flying at all.
    The loud vocal minority are those crying about not having flying. You should stop lying.

  17. #237
    I'm gonna put it like this. FFXIV does it perfectly.

    You have some clickable intractables you have to find across the map and have a compass to do. You have to finish the story of the map and you have to do a couple of secondary quests. Done! You unlocked flying!
    It makes you explore the zone and see the sights, and it makes you experience the quest content. This is ALL that is needed. There is no logical sense to force us to be on the ground for a year to promote the portfolio of arrogant people.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Agrossive View Post
    I dont want to spend my free time doing boring ass dailies, I'd rather spend my limited time on something fun.

    Laziness and entitlement have zero to do with it, your just slapping on recycled labels that in no way apply. Use your brain instead of mindlessly regurgitating what other people say.
    Taking two seconds to get from A to B instead 15 qualifies as fun? Sorry, no. You are just lazy. If you weren't, you would motivate yourself to get it done knowing you can unlock flying at the end. I didn't really like the repetitiveness either, but I motivated myself to keep doing it knowing flying would be unlocked later. AS it is, you can't be bothered to waste your "limited free time" on the requirements, but you have no issue wasting it here whining about it. I would be spending that tie in game getting it done instead being here complaining about it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    I'm gonna put it like this. FFXIV does it perfectly.

    You have some clickable intractables you have to find across the map and have a compass to do. You have to finish the story of the map and you have to do a couple of secondary quests. Done! You unlocked flying!
    It makes you explore the zone and see the sights, and it makes you experience the quest content. This is ALL that is needed. There is no logical sense to force us to be on the ground for a year to promote the portfolio of arrogant people.
    WoW isn't FFXIV. If you want FFXIV, go play that. If you can't handle having to actually to put a little effort into getting things, then WoW isn't the game for you. There are plenty of other games that will hand you everything for nothing.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post

    WoW isn't FFXIV. If you want FFXIV, go play that. If you can't handle having to actually to put a little effort into getting things, then WoW isn't the game for you. There are plenty of other games that will hand you everything for nothing.
    That's too bad buddy cause i don't limit myself. I play what i want and the way flying is unlocked in WoW is terrible and must be criticized. You are just gonna have to deal with that.
    Oh and yes FFXIV is vastly superior in that department. You gonna have to deal with that too. And if you played it as well, you would know how ridiculous your point is cause everything is way more difficult to achieve and rewarding in FFXIV than WoW. So, thanks for the laughs.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    I'm gonna put it like this. FFXIV does it perfectly.

    You have some clickable intractables you have to find across the map and have a compass to do. You have to finish the story of the map and you have to do a couple of secondary quests. Done! You unlocked flying!
    It makes you explore the zone and see the sights, and it makes you experience the quest content. This is ALL that is needed. There is no logical sense to force us to be on the ground for a year to promote the portfolio of arrogant people.
    Thats ok for singke player game but dedinitly not ok for mmorpg game.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •