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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Yes, but why make zones then?
    And not just raids?

    And the reason blizz gave was: not wasting x amount of time for everyone to fly over.
    And for people like me . who are pro flying, and pro faster as now. But against ding=flying. it bugs us, makes pvp/warmode a hell, people gank you kills/quests etc.

    But like i said....i am not anti flying. But ding is to fast.


    But lets put it like this:

    BFA launched 14 augustus.
    Uldir launched 4 september.

    That is about 3 weeks between launch and raids. If they put flying at launch of Uldir normal..it be enough to for most people to level and to justify getting flying. I would love to see it a week or 3 later. But to keep you pro flying people happy. A happy medium.
    Hell maybe pathfinder should have a requirment that needs you to complete something around the raid?

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    I do, they never did it before...and now they do it 2 times....ergo they are looking into flying. Why else would they put dangerous flying mobs in the game after 15 years??

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    Again, i do not think valid critisim is crying. I clearly stated: when people say i must have flying because i want it. With no good reason except...because its boring. Is not a valid critism. And if they do not counter our points. And just say i want it. Then they are crying.



    This is not real life. But lets compare it. Did we start flying from the start. Nope it took time to develop it. Just like space travel. So using your logic...each time we set a goal like flying, space travel, submarines etc. We did not get it at once. We developed it, failed at it. And in the end perfected it.
    And for other people expiericing the fullness of life ( aka all the quest) is the life goal. But flying interputs that for some people.



    Again their are more sides then the pro ground ( you think i am....i am not) and the pro fly teams.
    And its clear with the flying elites they are looking into new ways to counter it.
    And we are not saying flying should be removed. I think its hard to find anti flying people ( they are there). But its like you saying raids should go first. and quests and pvp should be done later. And if raids block the non raiders they should not be mad about it?



    Then why are you trying to debate me?......THIS is what i have been saying from the FREAKING start!!!!
    There are more ways then pro and anti. And more ways to counter flying. I even made this point....several times!!!
    You clearly did not read any of my responses.....And try to win this debate.
    because i have said from the start...move up the time table for pathfinder. And that i was not against flying. Just think ding = flying is anti game.

    There are many ways to redo flying:
    - new version pathfinder
    - dangerous flying zones
    - big, expensive quests
    - rep grinds
    etc etc etc
    The whole it kills PVP thing is a myth, it kills gankers which all WPVP has ever been. WoW always has been and always will be a PVE game, with shitty PVP attempts thrown into it. The only flight that could potentially hurt WPVP is Druid flight form being instant cast unless that has changes I have not played my Druid since they Destroyed them with the CATA pre patch. Even then if people fly away the didn't want to participate in PVP to begin with. People only use warmode so they level faster to get done with the meaningless content faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Or they could just design zones to account for flight, include it in the balance of the power progression of the expansion, and avoid the entire on/off problem of flight entirely. :/



    There have been plenty of times(mostly in TBC and WotLK) where there were dangerous flying mobs in the game. This is NOT the first time they've done it.

    The fear is that they're going to leave pathfinder as it is, but also add these annoyances afterwords. Which flies in the face(no pun intended) of their stated objectives for Pathfinder: Do the work first, get to fly over it after.

    If we do all the work to finish pathfinder, and wait the stupid 8+ months, then we should have completely unfettered access to flying without further restrictions. (On that note, this is why Argus was so infuriating). If they're going to salt the skies with halfassed, one-shot enemies, then they should also lift both the requirements and the time-lock of pathfinder. One or the other, not both.

    Either way, IMO, is a losing proposition. Pathfinder is bad. Just filling the skies with dazing turds that throw poo is also bad. Both are weak, shallow designs that by god better damn well be JUST a first step that leads to something better. Because if Blizzard thinks it's fine as it is, then they're doing it wrong.




    See, this is where I disagree again. You even pointed out the key part: The ground is boring. If that's the only thing a person says for why they want to fly, it's a powerful message telling Blizzard that their current grounded design needs work to make it more interesting and engaging.

    This is why I push so hard for a more integrated, complex open world design that has more depth than a series of "Kill X" quests with some halfassed story thrown in while leveling, followed by repetitive world quests that are more often than not completely nonsensical. The open world NEEDS more than that to stay healthy.




    The point I was trying to get across is that Flying is a key part of the indentity of WoW, and what attracts a lot of players to it. You can't just remove it and think it's fine.

    But the point you're making is also valid. Some people do enjoy the process of slogging around rolling through the mud as they quest.

    That's why I keep saying that Blizzard and players need to stop trying to do one or the other. It's too static. Too limiting. It would be like next expansion just removing dungeons, or battlegrounds. Some people would cheer because they don't like those things in the first place. But it would also cost the game a vital part of what it is.





    I don't think you are one or the other. I'm reacting to the words, not the person. I am not debating, I'm having a discussion. Don't view everything as adversarial; win/lose.
    This is what I'm saying just let us do the same old thing where we pay gold I have never had much but Id pay all the gold I have to be able to fly at max level right away so 250,000 is what im willing to pay. Then make factions or areas that require flight to reach again BC did this wonderfully, do things related to this and allow people to enjoy whatever they want not gate them behind a rep grind.

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    YOu are trying to make a connection that isn't there. They can easily, and likely, want both. There is absolutely no evidnce that this is evidnce they are wanting to get rid of pathfinder. It can easily be they want flying to be perilous with dange when it is unlocked and have zero to do with wanting to unlock flying sooner or get rid of pathfinder. Both can co-exist. They are not exclusive from each other.
    Yes i agree. But you said it yourself now. They could be both a way to control flying more. What blizzard will do we never know. They said we never would get panda's....yet MoP was a thing. Allied races is the same thing.

    All i am saying is: In the pro and anti flying discussion. Their are more soluttions. And while elite's may not be the answer to the problems ( both sides have). It might be a way to fix it. And it might be the reason they do it.

    .....pffff so tired of everyone taking everything so literal.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    The whole it kills PVP thing is a myth, it kills gankers which all WPVP has ever been. WoW always has been and always will be a PVE game, with shitty PVP attempts thrown into it. The only flight that could potentially hurt WPVP is Druid flight form being instant cast unless that has changes I have not played my Druid since they Destroyed them with the CATA pre patch. Even then if people fly away the didn't want to participate in PVP to begin with. People only use warmode so they level faster to get done with the meaningless content faster.
    Yes, and no.

    From someone who also daps into world pvp sometimes....not having flying because you are not max level has killed me several times over.

    And its not the only reason. just 1 of many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Or they could just design zones to account for flight, include it in the balance of the power progression of the expansion, and avoid the entire on/off problem of flight entirely. :/
    Yes they could....but that would mean a more tiered aproach to levels. And then it would take longer to make and people will get mad.
    And if you are not max level and flying a way more vertical map is a nightmare to walk around. And people would cry about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    There have been plenty of times(mostly in TBC and WotLK) where there were dangerous flying mobs in the game. This is NOT the first time they've done it.

    The fear is that they're going to leave pathfinder as it is, but also add these annoyances afterwords. Which flies in the face(no pun intended) of their stated objectives for Pathfinder: Do the work first, get to fly over it after.

    If we do all the work to finish pathfinder, and wait the stupid 8+ months, then we should have completely unfettered access to flying without further restrictions. (On that note, this is why Argus was so infuriating). If they're going to salt the skies with halfassed, one-shot enemies, then they should also lift both the requirements and the time-lock of pathfinder. One or the other, not both.

    Either way, IMO, is a losing proposition. Pathfinder is bad. Just filling the skies with dazing turds that throw poo is also bad. Both are weak, shallow designs that by god better damn well be JUST a first step that leads to something better. Because if Blizzard thinks it's fine as it is, then they're doing it wrong.
    Dangerous flying mobs. Not the whol zone filled with them ( or large chuncks). And again....i am not pro or anti. And again i have said it several times....that i agree that the time tabel of pathfinder is stupid right now. patch x.2 is to late for it.
    But i also think patch x.0 is to fast.

    You are just saying what i am saying all ALONG. flying at ding or not flying at all ( or real late) are not the only options......

    sigh....do you even read what i write ?


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    See, this is where I disagree again. You even pointed out the key part: The ground is boring. If that's the only thing a person says for why they want to fly, it's a powerful message telling Blizzard that their current grounded design needs work to make it more interesting and engaging.

    This is why I push so hard for a more integrated, complex open world design that has more depth than a series of "Kill X" quests with some halfassed story thrown in while leveling, followed by repetitive world quests that are more often than not completely nonsensical. The open world NEEDS more than that to stay healthy.
    Yes i agree. But we are not talking about you. We are talking about the people who say : we want flying. and give no reasons at all ( or very thin ones). and only cry about those.

    For instance you are not a cry baby about flying ( even though you are more pro flying ). Because you have reasons.

    You clearly are not getting that when we talk about cry baby's who want flying. We are talking about people who want flying, give no solutions to other people's/blizzards problems. Do not answer simple question like: why do you want flying etc.
    Those people are cry baby's....


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The point I was trying to get across is that Flying is a key part of the indentity of WoW, and what attracts a lot of players to it. You can't just remove it and think it's fine.

    But the point you're making is also valid. Some people do enjoy the process of slogging around rolling through the mud as they quest.

    That's why I keep saying that Blizzard and players need to stop trying to do one or the other. It's too static. Too limiting. It would be like next expansion just removing dungeons, or battlegrounds. Some people would cheer because they don't like those things in the first place. But it would also cost the game a vital part of what it is.
    Classic wow disagree's with you.

    And again....your last point is the thing i have been saying for pages now. THERE are more OPTIONS and VIEWS on things as pro or anti........


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I don't think you are one or the other. I'm reacting to the words, not the person. I am not debating, I'm having a discussion. Don't view everything as adversarial; win/lose.
    You are not...you are saying i was trying to win a debate/discussion. Look at most of your answers in this response...those are things i have been saying for several posts now. So you are clearly either NOT reading my posts. Or trying to start/continu a debate/discussion about things.

    I have said from the start i am not pro or anti flying. And i think their are more ways to do it........this is pretty much what you just said in the latest post to me in this thread. You still then find ways to discuss things. Because if you agree with me. You could just say: i agree with you. Or i think along the same lines but i would add: x, y or z.
    Instead you do the opisite.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    This is what I'm saying just let us do the same old thing where we pay gold I have never had much but Id pay all the gold I have to be able to fly at max level right away so 250,000 is what im willing to pay. Then make factions or areas that require flight to reach again BC did this wonderfully, do things related to this and allow people to enjoy whatever they want not gate them behind a rep grind.
    I think that an initial unlock of just gold for the most basic form of slow flying is a fine idea. But I also think that the concepts of earning upgrades and progressing has a lot of merit as well. Faster movement, dismount protection, or other benefits absolutely should be something for a player to look forward to and work towards.

    Timegating can die in a fire, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    You are not...you are saying i was trying to win a debate/discussion.
    Sigh... No, that's not what I said. Is this a language barrier?

    I said, literally: "Don't view everything as adversarial; win/lose." Which means that you should try to view the discussion as two friends exploring different perspectives and points, while not necessarily disagreeing. Everything doesn't have to result in "HAH! I won that argument! You're wrong!"

    A famous quote goes something like: "It's the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it." We can discuss the various aspects of flying/no-flying without having it be a win or lose debate. Yes, sometimes there are going to be points that I strongly disagree on It's not black and white. There are going to be times where I do argue a point with the intent to prove something. But there are also going to be times that I just want to add something to the mix.

    It's very nuanced, and if you can't distinguish between them, then just say so. Ask me what I meant instead of leaping to conclusions.




    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Yes they could....but that would mean a more tiered aproach to levels. And then it would take longer to make and people will get mad.
    And if you are not max level and flying a way more vertical map is a nightmare to walk around. And people would cry about that.
    Do you believe that Blizzard should avoid doing certain things out of the fear that a few people might get mad? I realize that applies to the people pushing for flight as well, but again, this is a nuanced topic. Blizzard should not listen to the people who just go to the forums and QQ "I WAN FLYING NAOW! TRASH GAEM! BLIZZ MAN BAD!" But they should listen to the posters like myself and others who have taken the time to carefully considered the situation and have presented legitimate criticisms with the current setup, AND included reasonable suggestions for how to improve things for the good of everyone.

    The development of the open world would take longer.

    Why would this be a bad thing? This used to be the foundation upon which Blizzard initially rested their reputation. It was WHY they were so appreciated. Games and content took longer to create, but when it was finally released you could see the quality. People absolute appreciate that. And given the alternative result of shallow, disposable, recycled, boring content that the open world has had for quite awhile now....I think that it would be worth it for Blizzard to spend a little more time creating an open world that lasted longer and helped retain player interest.

    In fact, historically, the times in which Blizzard has attempted to rush things and release content faster has resulted in a sub-par experience. WoD is a prime example of this. Remember the whole "One expansion per year" thing, and how poorly that turned out?

    Taking longer to produce content is not inherently bad. In the specific case of Blizzard and WoW, I think it actually is the better way to go.

    Vertical map vs Flying/No Flying

    If the entire world was designed to recognize and use flying from the get-go, then you would not need to be max level before flying. I think the mistake is in assuming that "walking around" is the default that everything needs to be based on. Some areas in the current game make you swim. Some areas you can use your mount. Other areas you have to walk/run.

    The idea is to make some areas where flying is the default, just like the areas I mentioned above use other forms of travel. The problem that Blizzard has cornered themselves with is in designing content that only works one way, then complaining about how flying breaks it. This is the fundamental issue with using such a simplistic formula that assumes that players only have one mode of travel. Break that assumption and start designing an open world with more depth, and players and devs will begin to appreciate it.

    Are some players going to be mad? Yes, of course. Some players are ALWAYS mad. That shouldn't stop the game from evolving. (and for the record, regressing back to ground-only is literally the opposite of evolving/progressing)



    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Classic wow disagree's with you.
    This is a disingenuous argument, considering that TBC and WotLK are widely considered the best expansions in the history of wow, with population numbers to back it up. And flying was a feature of every following expansion leading up to Cata, where Blizzard remastered the entire old world to accomodate it.

    So when "Classic" TBC is released in a couple of years you'll see how important flight is to that experience. Trying to claim the popularity of Classic, while ignoring the historical existence of the following expansions, is not a valid argument.

    (Yes, this is one of those points that is a debate. And one that you're going to lose if you continue to press it).
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-01-12 at 04:58 AM.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post

    Sigh... No, that's not what I said. Is this a language barrier?

    I said, literally: "Don't view everything as adversarial; win/lose." Which means that you should try to view the discussion as two friends exploring different perspectives and points, while not necessarily disagreeing. Everything doesn't have to result in "HAH! I won that argument! You're wrong!"

    A famous quote goes something like: "It's the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it." We can discuss the various aspects of flying/no-flying without having it be a win or lose debate. Yes, sometimes there are going to be points that I strongly disagree on It's not black and white. There are going to be times where I do argue a point with the intent to prove something. But there are also going to be times that I just want to add something to the mix.

    It's very nuanced, and if you can't distinguish between them, then just say so. Ask me what I meant instead of leaping to conclusions.
    Nope, its just a simple fact. If you agree with me. And you debate me on things i agree with you. If you post and post later say stuff you think is correct. What i have been saying all along. Then the only conclusion is that you are trying to start something that needs to be started.





    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Do you believe that Blizzard should avoid doing certain things out of the fear that a few people might get mad? I realize that applies to the people pushing for flight as well, but again, this is a nuanced topic. Blizzard should not listen to the people who just go to the forums and QQ "I WAN FLYING NAOW! TRASH GAEM! BLIZZ MAN BAD!" But they should listen to the posters like myself and others who have taken the time to carefully considered the situation and have presented legitimate criticisms with the current setup, AND included reasonable suggestions for how to improve things for the good of everyone.
    Nope i do not think that. I think that their will always be crybaby's. Look at the 6 month sub mount. Some see it as a cash grab, others as loyalty reward etc etc. Just pointing out that in this day and age...their will always be a big grou.....nope MOB of angry people with pitchforks.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The development of the open world would take longer.

    Why would this be a bad thing? This used to be the foundation upon which Blizzard initially rested their reputation. It was WHY they were so appreciated. Games and content took longer to create, but when it was finally released you could see the quality. People absolute appreciate that. And given the alternative result of shallow, disposable, recycled, boring content that the open world has had for quite awhile now....I think that it would be worth it for Blizzard to spend a little more time creating an open world that lasted longer and helped retain player interest.

    In fact, historically, the times in which Blizzard has attempted to rush things and release content faster has resulted in a sub-par experience. WoD is a prime example of this. Remember the whole "One expansion per year" thing, and how poorly that turned out?

    Taking longer to produce content is not inherently bad. In the specific case of Blizzard and WoW, I think it actually is the better way to go.
    I agree again......but we 2 are not the whole playing community of WoW. If you look at the whole of the youtubers/twitchers/forum post etc....it all says: content takes to long....where is the content...etc etc

    So its again a no win situation.

    On top of that....why should they waste money if people fly over it........they could for instance fill everything up...but then people will complain about that.



    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Vertical map vs Flying/No Flying

    If the entire world was designed to recognize and use flying from the get-go, then you would not need to be max level before flying. I think the mistake is in assuming that "walking around" is the default that everything needs to be based on. Some areas in the current game make you swim. Some areas you can use your mount. Other areas you have to walk/run.

    The idea is to make some areas where flying is the default, just like the areas I mentioned above use other forms of travel. The problem that Blizzard has cornered themselves with is in designing content that only works one way, then complaining about how flying breaks it. This is the fundamental issue with using such a simplistic formula that assumes that players only have one mode of travel. Break that assumption and start designing an open world with more depth, and players and devs will begin to appreciate it.

    Are some players going to be mad? Yes, of course. Some players are ALWAYS mad. That shouldn't stop the game from evolving. (and for the record, regressing back to ground-only is literally the opposite of evolving/progressing)
    And i agree again. One of the few people who like our 1 and only water zone. But we all saw how the majority of WoW players like that zone.....

    And again.....i have been saying to you.................for some many post. I am not pro or against. just a good look at the problem is a good thing. Like you say there are more options.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    This is a disingenuous argument, considering that TBC and WotLK are widely considered the best expansions in the history of wow, with population numbers to back it up. And flying was a feature of every following expansion leading up to Cata, where Blizzard remastered the entire old world to accomodate it.

    So when "Classic" TBC is released in a couple of years you'll see how important flight is to that experience. Trying to claim the popularity of Classic, while ignoring the historical existence of the following expansions, is not a valid argument.

    (Yes, this is one of those points that is a debate. And one that you're going to lose if you continue to press it).
    Yes, they where.
    But right now a shit ton of people are playing classic and you do not hear them cry about flying?

    euuhhh fact: old world flying was only there at Cata...before we did not have it there.

    And nope i am not saying people do not want flying. I am saying people CAN live without it!!!!

    2 different things....

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodykiller86 View Post
    sounds like you're a crybaby lol i raid and do mythics and i have no issues with pathfinder

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    hard? lmfao no its not hard to get
    Son, strengthen up. Stop belittling people online. You're better than that.

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