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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Trust me when I say I know exactly what you mean. I've repeated my point of view on flying, and clarified it so many times that I almost feel like I should keep a text file on my desktop so I can copy/paste it in replies.





    Such as? If you're going to bring up PVP again, I think you won't win that argument. Flying definitely adds an additional dimension to open world PVP, and definitely hurts ganking. But I don't really consider ganking as a legitimate form of WPVP, since it consists of waiting until someone lower level than you comes along, or waiting until a player is already engaged. There are FAR better things to argue for than that, and far greater things harming real WPVP than flying.




    I actually disagree on this point, as I don't think it's necessary to have it be a binary decision. Flying can absolutely be used in some areas of the game, but not others. We can very easily have zones like the Firelands, where you go through a portal, or ride a boat, or whatever, and enter an entire zone where flight is restricted.

    But then there can also be zones in the same expansion that are 100% designed to use flying, with airships, griffons, or other flying threats patrolling an area full of floating islands, steep cliffs, cave systems, giant trees, or whatever other form of vertical terrain that better suits the type of movement flight allows.




    Again, I have to disagree. They can't know what every single player wants, but they can make a pretty educated guess at what the majority wants. All I have to do is look at the steep dropoff in players after the formula of WoD(no flying forever) failed miserably to see what players think about that design. I don't necessarily need to know exactly what players want instead, but I CAN tell that the design without flying didn't work well.

    On top of that, even myself, as a single person, can browse all the various forums and see that there's a general approval for the unlocking aspects of Pathfinder, but general disapproval of the 8 month delay. Is that what every single WoW player thinks? Almost certainly not. But it seems to me that there's enough of a general consensus on the topic to warrant an alteration in the approach of the Pathfinder system.

    And it's not like it would even take that much of an alteration. Assuming Blizzard didn't take my suggestion and build some zones to use flying from the beginning:

    Unlock flying with Pathfinder part 1 in the launch content. Any future zone releases would need to be separated via portals or fatigue walls, and have each new zone either carry its own Pathfinder unlock. Include at least a token explanation in-game for why we have to re-earn the ability to fly, possibly with a scenario or final quest to garnish the actual unlock and add a little flavor.

    They could have done this in BfA with ease! Nazjatar was already set apart from the launch content, being only accessible via portal. All it would have taken for Mechagon would have been to portal that as well instead of putting it so close to Kul'Tiras. Boom. Done. They could have dispensed with the 8 month delay, made players happy, and potentially even increased the NZ/Mech grind a bit to compensate.

    Why would this be so damn hard for Blizzard to do? Rhetorical question. It wouldn't. They just have someone(Probably Hazzicostas) with a stick up their ass about flying.
    The main thing flying does to WPvP is putting players in a situation of never getting in pvp combat for a vast majority of their playing time. That didn't exist before, you had to look around you while questing to spot potential threat, once flying was introduced, it's all about dropping on people or simply staying safe forever, it's just not good for WPvP. I would agree with you that it's not the most important thing to worry about when it comes to WPvP but it's still a concern in my book.

    As for the unlocking of flying, yeah it's crap, lol, I was kinda fine with the "buy it at max level" thing we had in WotLK, but then again once you have it you don't interact with the world anymore since the world is not designed to have flying in it. And that system made no sense in Cata. Like you said it could easily be done differently, it's just made to bring people back to the game, there's always a bunch of people who come back and complain that they have to grind a bunch of rep and shits to unlock flying for the fifth time, so it's proven to work, it forces subs out of people to either grind it early or get it later when it becomes available, yet not really anyone quits because flying is not there or takes months to unlock. Financially speaking they have no reason to please their players in that aspect, WoW players are in general very much willing to pay for something they hate, this alters the devs perception as to what is good for the game or not.

    If everyone agree'd to not buy an xpack until flying is unlocked, I guarantee you Blizzard would change that instantly.

  2. #262
    I'm all for flying with:

    Every zone you complete the entire story arc in, you can fly immediately in that zone but not others until you've completed those zones. I would even agree to finishing the zone's arc in the 5man dungeon that all zones usually end their story in. This was flying is gated, somewhat but there's nothing stopping you from getting flying almost right away.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Sosuke Aizen View Post
    They did a decent job with the time it takes for flying but I still don’t see a reason to gate it other than slowing down the content. Why do the rust bolt and hord/alliance faction rep from Nazjatar needing to be revered makes no sense. Northrend made sense, my mount needed to learn to weather those lands. In this expansion there’s nothing that I didn’t know other than grinding rep for no reason.
    I have bad news for you. Grinds are part of mmo games becouse thwy have to slow you down. Otherwise everyone would run out of content in what? Like 24 hours after expansion launch if Blizzard would remove every bit of incovinience? Mmorpgs games are supostu be plaued for months and years and designers have to strech content what they can desing in 2y to last those 2 years.

    Also what lot of people seems to completly ignore are all those mmorpg aspects what are removed by flying. Like you know meeting actual players, skiling danger, avoiding pvp combat, removing sense of the world, breaking immersion, etc... Any proper mmorpg designer would tell you that flying never was good for the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jericho21 View Post
    I'm all for flying with:

    Every zone you complete the entire story arc in, you can fly immediately in that zone but not others until you've completed those zones. I would even agree to finishing the zone's arc in the 5man dungeon that all zones usually end their story in. This was flying is gated, somewhat but there's nothing stopping you from getting flying almost right away.
    Nope. You should never skip and avoid part of the world content no matter how many times you have done it. This is not single player game.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    You didn’t really address anything other than basic consumer attitude on any given level of consumerism.

    1. I didn’t mean to infer that you were saying flying caused problems. It is definitely, however, the rallying cry of many most anti-flyers and blizzard. The point I was making, is that not one valid reason that was given to remove flying to pathfinder or any other reason has actually validated those aspects of the game. The systems still suck and the game has not seen a large up-tick in long term participation in years. They need to fix the problems at their core and not use flying as the crux to play mad scientist with bull shit core gameplay.

    2. Consumers will be consumers. You act by your post that consumers aren’t allowed to bitch about a product. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. You want people to be grateful. They are paying for a product! Grateful never enters the equation. They don’t have to play, but they don’t “owe” appreciation to anyone. All consumers are allowed to voice opinions about services rendered or products received. Especially in the sense that it is a long term product like this, and blizzard keeps making the game worse for the majority regardless of flying. You blaming the community for
    Blizzards failures is ridiculous. If you bought a burger from a place every day for 5 years and suddenly they took the patty and made it vegan, you would bitch right? Or do you not have the right? Don’t be sanctimonious about defending blizzard when they are clearly giving zero shits about feedback or players satisfaction.
    Lack of prejudice != defending blizzard. Gotta love how you mistake those two and try to label me though the prism of your own conviction.
    And yes, I’ve already stated that current iteration of pathfinder is superficial and lackluster. No idea, why you think I am defending someone.

    All those arguments about consumers are sybaritic and hence unrelatable. I don’t attach myself to the game to the point where a bad decision influences my desire to spend half of the day discussing it aka screaming into the void.
    As you wrote yourself, blizz is business, they care for MAU and don’t care for us. They perceive situation through numbers, not forums. So the only good stimulation for them to review the pathfinder system is if the majority cancels subs simultaneously (which prolly never happens given the paradox of involvement)

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by ornichi View Post
    Lack of prejudice != defending blizzard. Gotta love how you mistake those two and try to label me though the prism of your own conviction.
    And yes, I’ve already stated that current iteration of pathfinder is superficial and lackluster. No idea, why you think I am defending someone.

    All those arguments about consumers are sybaritic and hence unrelatable. I don’t attach myself to the game to the point where a bad decision influences my desire to spend half of the day discussing it aka screaming into the void.
    As you wrote yourself, blizz is business, they care for MAU and don’t care for us. They perceive situation through numbers, not forums. So the only good stimulation for them to review the pathfinder system is if the majority cancels subs simultaneously (which prolly never happens given the paradox of involvement)
    So you suspect something should have happened a certain way and because it didn’t, it proved what? Nothing. If you actually believe the game is in a better state now as opposed to before these radical changes, then I have some ocean front property.

    As for the consumers, yes it’s a luxury. What’s your point? How is it un-relatable? I fail to see how I came to the defense of a consumer saying they are allowed to gripe based on the product they buy to you saying it’s un-relatable. It’s the exact same thing! Don’t deflect because you can’t come back with a solid point.

    You aren’t being indifferent btw. You have to understand that the topic being discussed between me and you is very simple. It really only has two sides. I say blizzard and anti-flyers used flying as a way to get rid of it a la pathfinder and it didn’t fix the game. It has resulted in no major changes to the core of the game. The same people are still making poor design choices. You don’t agree with this especially in the pvp aspect. This does not make you neutral on the subject. It very much so looks like you are defending blizzard. If you intended otherwise, fine, but I would have definitely not come to the defense of the people I claim that I’m neutral about.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    So you suspect something should have happened a certain way and because it didn’t, it proved what? Nothing. If you actually believe the game is in a better state now as opposed to before these radical changes, then I have some ocean front property.
    You couldn't try to project your opinion as fact more if you tried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintalos View Post
    Same reason why Allied Races are timegated; to improve their CCU and show shareholders that players are actively engaging with every system. Some players like it. Personally, I hate it. It's not an amazing feel to finally unlock flying, more like, I can stop doing the activities I dislike in order to do the few things I enjoy. It's a problem now that Blizzard has increases emphasis on systems working in tandem.

    I'd rather buy flying at two levels before the max level and have it unlocked for all characters. Or here's a thought, stop designing the zones to be extra annoying without flying so we'd actually want to fly.
    Just once I would like to see someone prove it. Not one person who has made this baseless claim has ever had any evidence to actually prove it.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    You couldn't try to project your opinion as fact more if you tried.

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    Just once I would like to see someone prove it. Not one person who has made this baseless claim has ever had any evidence to actually prove it.
    Rofl. You’re right. The game is so much better now. Groups are flourishing, guilds aren’t falling apart due to classic, and there is absolutely zero burnout. Jesus dude. Pull your head out of the sand.

  8. #268
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    Being able to fly is a pretty powerful bonus. I enjoy unlocking power upgrades over time. First, we get a ground speed increase, then we get flying. Personally, I'd like it if part 2 was introduced sooner but had slow flying and then a part 3 adds fast flying.
    Check out my game, Craftsmith, on the Google Play Store!

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    You couldn't try to project your opinion as fact more if you tried.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just once I would like to see someone prove it. Not one person who has made this baseless claim has ever had any evidence to actually prove it.
    Look, I work in a game publishing company where I've also been involved in dreaming up concepts similar to this to improve CCU. I see the patterns there and can join the dots. Is it possible I'm wrong? Of course. But it's still probable. Time-gating always has the added agenda of arbitrarily increasing consumer engagement. Whether the consumer is happy with it or not isn't a question; only their engagement.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post



    Nope. You should never skip and avoid part of the world content no matter how many times you have done it. This is not single player game.
    This literally, bar none, one of the dumbest statements I've read in the entire 5 years of the no flying debate.

    I really hope it was lost in translation, and was meant to be sarcasm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintalos View Post
    Look, I work in a game publishing company where I've also been involved in dreaming up concepts similar to this to improve CCU. I see the patterns there and can join the dots. Is it possible I'm wrong? Of course. But it's still probable. Time-gating always has the added agenda of arbitrarily increasing consumer engagement. Whether the consumer is happy with it or not isn't a question; only their engagement.
    If nothing else it's Occam's Razor.

    Which is more likely:

    That the devs of WoW honestly and truly believe that removing a beloved feaure, and forcing players to re-earn it every expansion with a laundry list of disassociated tasks, followed by a nonsensical and unnecessary multi-month delay..... somehow magically makes the game more engaging and enjoyable for everyone?

    Or that the profit-driven, number crunching, multinational corporation with a fiduciary duty to increase profits has calculated down to the penny that Pathfinder will ultimately generate more money despite the irritation it generates among the players.


    Gosh, I wonder which one it is?

  11. #271
    I think an important point that pro-pathfinder people tend to leave out is the fact that WoW has clearly knocked every MMO out of the water, even the ones that gain steam will eventually fail. WoW is now competing with every other form of entertainment, anything that pulls you off your screen or onto your second monitor. Or any other game for that matter.

    When the developers tell you how to enjoy the game and what they want you to do in order to do something they allowed you to do previously (with less requirements), its easy to be turned off and just play LoL, Apex, Fortnite, etc. At this rate, WoW will die when their players are just too old. What teenage kid is gunna pick up WoW when they are told by the developers and the vocal minority that they have to grind hours upon end to fly.

    I get it, it's the way MMO's are. But its 2019. We live in the world of Snapchat, Fortnite, Instagram, Apex, LoL, and other instant gratification media.

    The day of the uber grind is over.

    It's time for WoW to change it up a bit.

    I personally would pay a reduced sub-fee ($10) if all I had access to what leveling, dungeons and raids.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    This literally, bar none, one of the dumbest statements I've read in the entire 5 years of the no flying debate.

    I really hope it was lost in translation, and was meant to be sarcasm.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If nothing else it's Occam's Razor.

    Which is more likely:

    That the devs of WoW honestly and truly believe that removing a beloved feaure, and forcing players to re-earn it every expansion with a laundry list of disassociated tasks, followed by a nonsensical and unnecessary multi-month delay..... somehow magically makes the game more engaging and enjoyable for everyone?

    Or that the profit-driven, number crunching, multinational corporation with a fiduciary duty to increase profits has calculated down to the penny that Pathfinder will ultimately generate more money despite the irritation it generates among the players.


    Gosh, I wonder which one it is?
    Well Occam's Razor favours the former, "game designers design game" is simpler than "accountants design algorithm able.to quantify potential profits from restricting player access to y-axis to eventually be unlocked through a series of repeated tasks."

    I'm not saying Blizz don't keep an eye on profits - the game has been designed to keep people subscribed since day 1 - but the way features are introduced and iterated on makes it look a lot more like game designers design the game and adjust according to player response.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Well Occam's Razor favours the former, "game designers design game" is simpler than "accountants design algorithm able.to quantify potential profits from restricting player access to y-axis to eventually be unlocked through a series of repeated tasks."

    I'm not saying Blizz don't keep an eye on profits - the game has been designed to keep people subscribed since day 1 - but the way features are introduced and iterated on makes it look a lot more like game designers design the game and adjust according to player response.
    What you just said might cover what the devs would LIKE to do in a perfect world. But the harsh reality of Acti-Blizz is that profits come first. This has been true for a long time now, and has been illustrated in a very ugly way with recent events.

    If you think otherwise, then you haven't been paying attention, and might want to get away from under that rock you've been living under.

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Sooo, grinding up some coins to obtain an ultimate luxury ability that can basically take you safely around the content fast paced is RPG'ish?

    I find it quite RPG'ish to have pathfinder. Travel the lands far and wide, learn and explore and earn your right to soar above the lands.
    Having flight in the first place is like using noclip to get to the end of a level - not very RPGish. Flight never should've been in the game in this unlimited and unmitigate form
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  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Having flight in the first place is like using noclip to get to the end of a level - not very RPGish. Flight never should've been in the game in this unlimited and unmitigate form
    Which is exactly why the open world should be designed to account for flying, with areas that can only be reached by it, credible threats to a flying player, and mixed areas where flying doesn't work.

    The only reason flying works like a "Noclip" cheat is because Blizzard is designing the open world as though flying didn't exist. Thus the problem is not with flying, but with how Blizzard is being lazy with their design.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Which is exactly why the open world should be designed to account for flying, with areas that can only be reached by it, credible threats to a flying player, and mixed areas where flying doesn't work.

    The only reason flying works like a "Noclip" cheat is because Blizzard is designing the open world as though flying didn't exist. Thus the problem is not with flying, but with how Blizzard is being lazy with their design.
    ...Or they've dabbed into this design and it turned out to be not fun. I don't believe that it's a problem with the world being poorly designed, it's the implementation of flying itself. See mechagon pre-flying for example, you had "limited flying" there, but for some reason it was "limited" by time, not by functionality and was as boring as regular flying.

    Then, when you remove current flying out of the picture completely, you have two important for future of this game things:
    1) freedom to design new things (mobility-related mechanics, like grapling hooks, paddlers, flight paths; intricate terrain routes, easter eggs)
    2) ability to actually test replacements for flying / various iterations / mechanics that limit flying. Because while players have access to flying they are not going to not use it, so things like pathfinder are great testing periods for devs to get unbiased information from players about flying and what design changes are good or bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Having flight in the first place is like using noclip to get to the end of a level - not very RPGish. Flight never should've been in the game in this unlimited and unmitigate form
    Hey, I'm all up for flight with 'dangers' like Mechagon.
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  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Hey, I'm all up for flight with 'dangers' like Mechagon.
    Mechagon barely adds any danger for flight, this "you've been detected" thing is cool idea, but it just doesn't work with current flying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Mechagon barely adds any danger for flight, this "you've been detected" thing is cool idea, but it just doesn't work with current flying.
    Why do you think I put it in marks? It's not strong enough. But you could easily see in zones where beasts shred you out of the skies, or lightning frying you if you hang around too long, or increase the dangers of guards to gun you down.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  20. #280
    Why do people keep thinking blizzard does anything without the pure and unaffected aim to make people subscribe for longer. THe entire gameplay loop of WoW, is not about fun, it's not about anything other than "how can we make the highest number of players subscribe for the longest possible time". The entire way you accumulate reputation in the game now is constructed to achieve this, and "rewards" for your wasted time are flying, new rac..reskinned races etc. A carrot on a stick at best, more accurately a rodent treadmill.
    Last edited by Shiny212; 2019-10-18 at 07:35 AM.

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