Why flying being gated behind rep grind makes no sense

[Raelbo]

You are totally misrepresenting the effects of flying on game.

Right back at you.

Here are some facts that you keep avoiding by creating bs arguments:

Ok, let's look at these facts, and more importantly, the implications...

- flying puts less people on the ground

It puts less people on the ground in the spaces between points of interest. However it increases the concentration of player activity at points of interest.

I'll be blunt. In the year without flying (as was the case in WoD and Legion too) 90% + of my interaction with other players was at points of interest, not in the space between where people are just generally focused on trying to get where they're going anyway.

So even though, mathematically, you may be correct that there are less people on the ground (because some of them are in the air), it actually results in more player interaction.

- flying kills immersion and routes

Sure. And that's important for new content. It's not important at this stage of the expansion, and hasn't been important for nearly a year now. If you're interested in the "facts" the simple fact of the matter is that kind of forced immersion this late into the expansion detracts from the game experience. It's boring, it's tedious, it's not challenging, it adds nothing to our experience except to waste time - time which would better spent doing actually meaningful content (of which there is plenty).

- flying greatly reduce world pvp “due to much less player interaction”

That's bullshit, based on bad logic. But hey, as you accuse mr Cowdog of doing, you just conveniently ignored the fact that you've been rebutted on this already.

Flying cannot be held responsible for any reduction in WPvP because it doesn't force people to disengage from WPvP. Flying is simply a tool that enhances people's ability to get to where they want to be. If they wanted to be engaging in WPvP, flying would actually be resulting in more WPvP because people would use it to seek out and find where other players are. You can cover a lot more ground from the air in order to seek out those interactions.

No. The fact of the matter is that players choose to use flying to avoid WPvP because they don't want to engage in WPvP. Stop trying to scapegoat flying for a problem it is in no way whatsoever responsible for.

If you want to know what the real problems are, look at the fact that Blizzard feel compelled to offer superior rewards for going WM. Most players only enable WM because they want that bonus 10% rewards. They don't give a toss about WPvP, and truth be told, if given a choice they'd avoid any inter player conflict at all.

You want to sacrifice all of these for the sake of convenience.

It's not about "convenience". It's about what makes for the most fun. And at this stage of the expansion, having to waste time trundling across the same time-consuming and annoying paths that lost their charm nearly a year ago, and having to "fight" through a bunch of trash mobs who are basically nothing more than an annoyance because they stopped being an actual threat nearly a year ago, is not fun gameplay.

Being able to get a bird's eye view of the world gives me a fresh perspective (and appreciation) of the zones. It also entices me to actually explore more of the world instead of simply trying to find the fastest way to get over it. It makes a lot of stuff like hunting for treasure, doing exploration achievements, archaeology etc - activities that I was quite to ignore before - actually worth doing.

Importantly flying lets me get to the stuff I want to do - the enjoyable gameplay - with less of the crap I am simply not interested in.

[Didly]

That's bullshit, based on bad logic. But hey, as you accuse mr Cowdog of doing, you just conveniently ignored the fact that you've been rebutted on this already.

Flying cannot be held responsible for any reduction in WPvP because it doesn't force people to disengage from WPvP. Flying is simply a tool that enhances people's ability to get to where they want to be. If they wanted to be engaging in WPvP, flying would actually be resulting in more WPvP because people would use it to seek out and find where other players are. You can cover a lot more ground from the air in order to seek out those interactions.

No. The fact of the matter is that players choose to use flying to avoid WPvP because they don't want to engage in WPvP. Stop trying to scapegoat flying for a problem it is in no way whatsoever responsible for.

Not sure why the idea that exposing less players to each other results in reduced player interaction is so difficult for some people to grasp in this thread.

If you have less players in an era, and less players seeing other players, there will naturally be a reduction in world PVP. No one is denying there are other factors that contribute to less world pvp, and that flying is indeed "convenient," but to suggest flying does not degrade the quality of world pvp is absurd.

You can't "seek out and find where other players are" when you can't fucking see them until you arrive at your destination and hope you catch them in the 30 seconds they are dismounted.

[Raelbo]

As for world PVP, you need to stop beating that horse. You're just plain wrong. Flying doesn't reduce WPVP. Certainly, it changes the dynamic from what it was when only ground mounts were available. But it did not reduce it by any measurable or significant amount.

Precisely...

BGs and Arenas did more harm to open world than anything else, followed by safe teleports to dungeons, cross server tech obliterating server reputation and identity, and Blizzard's complete and total abandonment of PVP objectives in the open world.

No matter how many times you claim flying harms WPVP, you will never be right. You're just lying to yourself, and Classic transition from Phase 2 into the release of battlegrounds will fucking prove this to you when it happens.

Honestly, I would argue that the problem with WPvP is actually that it's just a fundamentally flawed concept that seems like it should be fun, but in reality, by logic, it can almost never be.

Here's the inconvenient truth about WPvP: Most players don't actually like it. They like a romanticised version of it in which they dominate the opposing faction. But almost everyone has an aversion to being on the receiving end.

So what do players do? They seek out opponents who they know they will crush. They do this either by forming groups to go hunting for lone enemies, or they carefully check out people they encounter and only engage if they know they have a strong gear advantage. Or they wait for an enemy to have his hands full with a PvE mob and then take advantage of the situation. But come across a player who doesn't look better geared (even similar) or a bigger group? 9/10 times I see this we look at each other (I can see that he is targetting me, and he can see me targetting him) and then quietly go our separate ways, looking for easier targets.

When I do get attacked it's almost always by a gang of 3-5 Alliance valiantly demonstrating their mathematical prowess of numerical superiority. Either I manage to run away (not likely tbh) or I go splat. Maybe I take one of them down with me, but who are we kidding, this is the real world and I, like 90% of players, am not some PvP god, so odds are I am toast and having to run to my corpse. It's not fun, it's not engaging. I do it solely because of the extra rewards and the achievements mounts pets toys etc locked behind WM.

And if I look around me when I play and observe everyone else's behaviour, I am pretty certain that's how most others are playing too.

It's not going to change though. Blizzard have a serious hardon for WPvP. They think it's one of the defining features of World of WARcraft. So they'll bribe us to do it.

[Acherus01]

You literally just confirmed the same thing I said: "Don't play the game until flying is released" = "Unsub until part 2 is released".

Thank you for confirming my point.

My point to you wasn't the flying bit, it was that I didn't 'conveniently' forget to leave it out on my earlier post. I thought it was well enough implied on my post, so it would be obvious enough. My mistake, I suppose.

[Raelbo]

Not sure why the idea that exposing less players to each other results in reduced player interaction is so difficult for some people to grasp in this thread.

Not sure how you literally missed the paragraph above where I addressed that exact fallacy.

If you have less players in an era, and less players seeing other players, there will naturally be a reduction in world PVP.

Flying doesn't result in less players in an area. If anything it results in a greater concentration of players at points of interest because players are spending less time stuck on arbitrary paths where they're unlikely to encounter anyone anyway.

to suggest flying does not degrade the quality of world pvp is absurd.

World PvP simply requires 2 things:
1) Opposing players who want to fight each other
2) The ability to find each other

Suggesting that flying reduces either of those things is what is absurd. If anything, flying should result in more WPvP because it makes it that much easier to cover ground and find other players.

You can't "seek out and find where other players are" when you can't fucking see them until you arrive at your destination and hope you catch them in the 30 seconds they are dismounted.

Please explain how this situation is improved with even less mobility?

[Kaver]

Not sure why the idea that exposing less players to each other results in reduced player interaction is so difficult for some people to grasp in this thread.

If you have less players in an era, and less players seeing other players, there will naturally be a reduction in world PVP. No one is denying there are other factors that contribute to less world pvp, and that flying is indeed "convenient," but to suggest flying does not degrade the quality of world pvp is absurd.

You can't "seek out and find where other players are" when you can't fucking see them until you arrive at your destination and hope you catch them in the 30 seconds they are dismounted.

He assumes that wpvp only happens when players actively meet up at certain location and fights.

[Didly]

Honestly, I would argue that the problem with WPvP is actually that it's just a fundamentally flawed concept that seems like it should be fun, but in reality, by logic, it can almost never be.

Here's the inconvenient truth about WPvP: Most players don't actually like it. They like a romanticised version of it in which they dominate the opposing faction. But almost everyone has an aversion to being on the receiving end.

So what do players do? They seek out opponents who they know they will crush. ...

At this point I'm suspecting you don't even play the game.

World PVP is just fun. It's fun solo, it's fun groups, it's even fun to rile a bunch of people up and eventually get stomped by a group of the opposing faction. There's nothing "romanticized" about it at all, we tend to crush the opposing faction on a regular basis... then eventually the bounty hits and we die- but the whole process is engaging.

We seek out *any* players, because due to reasons mentioned in this thread (including flying) it's hard enough as it is to actually find people. Mechagon is great for this reason.

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Not sure how you literally missed the paragraph above where I addressed that exact fallacy.

Flying doesn't result in less players in an area. If anything it results in a greater concentration of players at points of interest because players are spending less time stuck on arbitrary paths where they're unlikely to encounter anyone anyway.

World PvP simply requires 2 things:
1) Opposing players who want to fight each other
2) The ability to find each other

Suggesting that flying reduces either of those things is what is absurd. If anything, flying should result in more WPvP because it makes it that much easier to cover ground and find other players.

Please explain how this situation is improved with even less mobility?

OK... first off saying "you're wrong" isn't you "addressing a fallacy." Nor have you established it's a "fallacy" in the first place. You've got a strong case of Redditor-itis.

Again, why it's so difficult of a concept to grasp is beyond me. Flying allows people to spend less time in the world- able to near-teleport to their destination to accomplish a task and then immediately GTFO. Spending less time in the world means you spend less time in the world. Less time in the world results in less players interacting due to a reduction in the likelihood of players even seeing each other. Less interaction means less world pvp.

Where in that chain are you disagreeing?

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He assumes that wpvp only happens when players actively meet up at certain location and fights.

Yes... World PVP ONLY happens when players see each other and start fighting.

Imagine that! What a ridiculous concept!

[Raelbo]

At this point I'm suspecting you don't even play the game.

Then how about reading a few of the posts I made in the last few pages where I give a few anecdotes. Or is that asking too much?

World PVP is just fun. It's fun solo, it's fun groups, it's even fun to rile a bunch of people up and eventually get stomped by a group of the opposing faction. There's nothing "romanticized" about it at all, we tend to crush the opposing faction on a regular basis... then eventually the bounty hits and we die- but the whole process is engaging.

If this is the case, then why are so many people so eager to use their flying mounts to get away from it instead of to it.

I am not going to pretend that no one enjoys WPvP. Of course there are a few souls out there who do. What I am saying is that it's pretty obvious that most players who play with Warmode on don't care for it. They are there for the rewards and would rather avoid the PvP elements as much as possible.

Look, I totally get the frustrations of those of you who actually like WPvP. But don't try and blame flying for the fact that WM is infested with people who are only there for the rewards and want to avoid WPvP at all costs. Personally I think that WM was a great idea in principle - let players opt in to world PvP. The problem, as I see it, is that the rewards are what drive people to use WM, not a genuine desire to engage in WPvP. And that's a massive problem. Personally I think that they should remove any added incentives for using WM. Let it be purely for people who want the WPvP experience. But then sadly I suspect that WM would stop being viable because so few people would be interested. And I don't believe Blizzard wants to allow this. Having active WPvP seems to be something that they think is important, even if they're having to bribe people into doing it.

[Laqweeta]

It has nothing to do with Blizzard, it has nothing to do with the devs.

It has everything to do with Activision, time played metrics and shareholders.

[Drusin]

Because the Blizzard Devs have got this notion into their heads that flying is a cancer to the game and that really, even if think we want flying, we'll enjoy the game more if we don't get flying. Sadly a loud vocal minority agreed with them which simply validated their delusion.

I guess we should be thankful we even get flying at all.

I just got flying yesterday and I'm glad I no longer have to run around in their shit fucking world. I actually can go and play my alts without hating my life.

[azka]

It shouldn't be behind rep grind.
It should be behind Cutting Edge.

[Didly]

Then how about reading a few of the posts I made in the last few pages where I give a few anecdotes. Or is that asking too much?



If this is the case, then why are so many people so eager to use their flying mounts to get away from it instead of to it.

I am not going to pretend that no one enjoys WPvP. Of course there are a few souls out there who do. What I am saying is that it's pretty obvious that most players who play with Warmode on don't care for it. They are there for the rewards and would rather avoid the PvP elements as much as possible.

Look, I totally get the frustrations of those of you who actually like WPvP. But don't try and blame flying for the fact that WM is infested with people who are only there for the rewards and want to avoid WPvP at all costs. Personally I think that WM was a great idea in principle - let players opt in to world PvP. The problem, as I see it, is that the rewards are what drive people to use WM, not a genuine desire to engage in WPvP. And that's a massive problem. Personally I think that they should remove any added incentives for using WM. Let it be purely for people who want the WPvP experience. But then sadly I suspect that WM would stop being viable because so few people would be interested. And I don't believe Blizzard wants to allow this. Having active WPvP seems to be something that think is important, even if they're having to bribe people into doing it.



We seek out *any* players, because due to reasons mentioned in this thread (including flying) it's hard enough as it is to actually find people. Mechagon is great for this reason.

Killing people who are just in WM for their 10-15% is even better. I love it. The ideal gank is a tryhard PVE hero with a Guild Master or Co-GM rank out there with a Vantus Rune on for the 5th boss, trying to min max his 15%.

Games like Red Dead Online prove there are people interested in higher-stakes, dangerous worlds. Perhaps if Blizzard had balls and made the world dangerous from a PVP and PVE standpoint people would be more interested. Unfortunately the incentive needs to be there because with the removal of PVP servers there would certainly be a reduction in the amount of people in War Mode.

Any why shouldn't there be an additional reward for playing the game without training wheels?

It has nothing to do with Blizzard, it has nothing to do with the devs.

It has everything to do with Activision, time played metrics and shareholders.

Unfortunately this is the truth. The metrics back up player engagement figures which drives any decision made about the game. They know we'll grind the rep because we "have to" and thus the current system stays.

[Raelbo]

OK... first off saying "you're wrong" isn't you "addressing a fallacy." Nor have you established it's a "fallacy" in the first place.

"It puts less people on the ground in the spaces between points of interest. However it increases the concentration of player activity at points of interest.

I'll be blunt. In the year without flying (as was the case in WoD and Legion too) 90% + of my interaction with other players was at points of interest, not in the space between where people are just generally focused on trying to get where they're going anyway.

So even though, mathematically, you may be correct that there are less people on the ground (because some of them are in the air), it actually results in more player interaction."

Again, why it's so difficult of a concept to grasp is beyond me.

It's not that I don't grasp it. It's that I see the full picture. To me this stuff is pretty straightforward. Maybe I am guilty of cognitive bias and assuming that everyone here will follow with ease, so I apologise if you find this hard and I'll try to explain in easier to understand terms.

Flying allows people to spend less time in the world- able to near-teleport to their destination to accomplish a task and then immediately GTFO. Spending less time in the world means you spend less time in the world. Less time in the world results in less players interacting due to a reduction in the likelihood of players even seeing each other. Less interaction means less world pvp.

Where in that chain are you disagreeing?

"Flying allows people to spend less time in the world- able to near-teleport to their destination to accomplish a task and then immediately GTFO"

This is misleading. Yes, people spend less time on the ground, because they're spending some of their time in the air. But time spent on the ground between points of interest, mounted up on your ground mount and running along a road, is of low value when you're talking about WPvP.

Time spent at a point of interest, carrying out quest objectives is of value. And because players spend less time travelling, that means they spend more time at points of interest.

"Spending less time in the world means you spend less time in the world"

You're 100% correct. I absolutely cannot refute that.

"Less time in the world results in less players interacting due to a reduction in the likelihood of players even seeing each other."

False. Likelihood of player interaction has to do with players being in the same place at the same time. The world is a big place, meaning it's unlikely you'll encounter people if everyone is moving around randomly. Flying concentrates players into points of interest thus increasing likelihood of player interaction.

[SirCowdog]

All of these things contribute to reducing world pvp, flying just exacerbates the problem by removing people from the same plane, making them less visible. Not sure why this is so difficult to grasp for you.

Less players in the same vicinity + less player visibility = less player interaction in the form of pvp

I'm just putting in its proper context.

A lot of flight-haters like to point to flying as thought it's the single largest cause of the WPVP decline. But it's sort of like crying about a paper cut when you've already been beaten half to death. People belaboring the point is a blatant, transparent, PETTY attempt to shit on flying. Not because they like WPVP and want to see it improve. Because if that was the case they'd be arguing or suggesting things that helped promote what they loved. But instead they have to focus on the only thing their petty minds can see, because someone once got away from their bottom-tier gank attempt, and fling every ounce of unreasoning hate they can muster.

So it's not that I can't grasp it. It's that I understand perfectly well what's going on with it.

[Raelbo]

Killing people who are just in WM for their 10-15% is even better. I love it. The ideal gank is a tryhard PVE hero with a Guild Master or Co-GM rank out there with a Vantus Rune on for the 5th boss, trying to min max his 15%.

I am not faulting you for having your fun, but let's not pretend that mr PvE is really getting the same kick out of the experience as you are.
He's there only because the game is bribing him to be there. And so are the vast majority of WM participants (victims). I don't believe that's particularly healthy for the game or its playerbase at large

Any why shouldn't there be an additional reward for playing the game without training wheels?

Because it compels people to play in a style they don't enjoy which ends up with people like you crying about flying.

Look, I have zero problem in principle with earning more rewards because you're participating in WM. But then tie those rewards to actually participating in WM, not to simply clicking a button and then playing as if you're in PvE while trying to evade any opposing faction players.

[SirCowdog]

Honestly, I would argue that the problem with WPvP is actually that it's just a fundamentally flawed concept that seems like it should be fun, but in reality, by logic, it can almost never be.

Sorry to cut down the quote, because you make a good point. I actually agree with most of it except that I believe that WPVP can absolutely be fun and have a great deal of depth......if the entire game is built around it. Look to EVE online for an idea of how to do WPVP right. That game is built from the ground up to promote, encourage, and facilitate open pvp of any kind.

The problem is that WoW is not built that way. And people who want to WPVP need to understand that while PVP can be done, it's done at their own risk, expense, and without ANY guarantee of satisfaction. And blaming a piece of PVE enjoyment that a large portion of the playerbase likes to use just so you can get a more easy gank attempt is.....please understand my frustration here....fucking petty and selfish.

By the by, it should be valuable to know that even me, one of the biggest, most vocal, vehement proponent of including flight in the game.....absolutely also promotes and agrees with the simple suggestion to fix all of this: Deny all flying while War Mode is toggled on.

Which is funny. Because instead of pushing for the one thing that would get WPVP players what they want, WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE FLIGHT COMMUNITY(yes, the war mode solution is that well accepted across the board), they'd rather dig their feet in and attempt to smear shit on something other people enjoy by removing flight entirely.

[Raelbo]

Sorry to cut down the quote, because you make a good point. I actually agree with most of it except that I believe that WPVP can absolutely be fun and have a great deal of depth......if the entire game is built around it. Look to EVE online for an idea of how to do WPVP right. That game is built from the ground up to promote, encourage, and facilitate open pvp of any kind.

The problem is that WoW is not built that way.

A problem for those who like WPvP. A boon for those who prefer PvE (which I believe is surely the vast majority).

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By the by, it should be valuable to know that even me, one of the biggest, most vocal, vehement proponent of including flight in the game.....absolutely also promotes and agrees with the simple suggestion to fix all of this: Deny all flying while War Mode is toggled on.

Which is funny. Because instead of pushing for the one thing that would get WPVP players what they want, WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE FLIGHT COMMUNITY(yes, the war mode solution is that well accepted across the board), they'd rather dig their feet in and attempt to smear shit on something other people enjoy by removing flight entirely.

Not saying I disagree with you, but if you remove flight from WM, how many people do you think would stay playing WM? In the end it will solve the issue of people flying away from PvP combat because there won't be anyone around to fly away. This will only add to the anti-flyer hate.

[Ange]

Less players in the same vicinity + less player visibility = less player interaction in the form of pvp

Blizzard should put 1 player who want flying from day1 and 1 player who constantly complains about dead-server/dead-game-world in a real thunderdome and the winner can choose what to do with pathfinder.

Also the winner will have to fight again vs 1 active player who does the normal endgame raiding/m+/ratedPVP and does not care the slightest about the feeling of a noob AFKing in a questing zone nor does he cares about a flying-farm-bot-2000.

I would watch both matches.

[SirCowdog]

A problem for those who like WPvP. A boon for those who prefer PvE (which I believe is surely the vast majority).

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Not saying I disagree with you, but if you remove flight from WM, how many people do you think would stay playing WM? In the end it will solve the issue of people flying away from PvP combat because there won't be anyone around to fly away. This will only add to the anti-flyer hate.

It would remove flight from the equation of wpvp. If wpvp players still want to hate on flying, then they expose their true motives of just wanting to grief players who have no interest in fighting them.

[Satelliteyears0o]

wish theyd get rid of flying entirely besides flight masters n flight paths. being able to circumvent the world and float indefinitely without penalty is such a loss.