Why flying being gated behind rep grind makes no sense

[SirCowdog]

I was unaware I had to justify an opinion with evidence. I understand why you feel the way you do, I simply do not agree with your assertion. Neither you nor I know what happens behind closed doors at Blizzard and without unknowable information being disclosed it's impossible to correlate mass unsubbing with Blizzard's decision to reverse positions. The second, more important reason I disbelieve this notion is that if you assume it to be true then you are able to use this information to support arguments that flying is so important to the playerbase that the one time Blizzard said fuck you flying, everybody unsubbed and forced Big Bad Blizzard to reconsider. And while I agree that it was important to some people and important enough to cause Blizzard to change their mind, I simply still do not believe a majority of players care strongly enough about flying to unsubscribe should Blizzard ever decide in the future not to include it again.

In more broad terms, I feel like it presents a slippery slope argument that Pathfinder is not a good compromise and that flying needs to be included earlier in the expansion cycle. I don't really personally care for it but I understand why it exists. I doubt Blizzard will be changing the way it works in the future. I figure most people are ambivalent towards the idea as I am, and this discussion is mainly fueled by pro- and anti-flying posters who refuse to understand the massive gray area most players fall under. (Both sides often incorrectly labeling their position is the majority/minority.)

That's a lot of words to say: I don't give a shit and I think most players, generally, also don't give a shit.

It's important to explain your reasoning because there's a difference between just making something up(like anti-vaxxers, for example), and basing an opinion on actual observable or provable information.

In the case of flying/no-flying, we have a pretty good idea of how that went down. I get that you disagree, based on the notion that no one can ever know what goes on inside Blizzard's decision-making process, but I look at it similar to a black hole. You can't actually see a black hole, but you can make a pretty god damn good guess at it by the effects it has on the things around it.

To apply this analogy: Ion announces Pathfinder's return for Shadowlands. The most hardcore Blizzard fans(those who pay to travel to and attend Blizzcon) were heard to boo it. Is this a perfect representation of how Pathfinder and no-flying is received across all players? Of course not. Does it tell us anything about how Blizzard decides to stick with pathfinder in Shadowlands? No. But when you add it into the entire history of various reactions to no-flying over the years, it creates a pattern that can be used to make judgement calls on.

How this applies to WoD and the 180 on "No flying ever again": If you had been paying close attention to the topic, you would know that there was a pretty steady stream of negative feedback and criticism directed at the concept of wow without flying, as early as beta. Blizzard went ahead with it anyway, and the general perception after launch was mediocre. Or rather there was no strong feeling one way or another.

But due to Blizzard's poor communication, many people did NOT have a strong reaction based on the assumption that flight would return in 6.1. This had the effect of suppressing outcry, not eliminating it. When the final announcement fully clarified that flying would not be returning ever again, all of the outrage, that had previously been damped down, flared up again stronger than before. This was compounded by anger from players who had paid extra money for the collectors edition and/or cash shop flying mounts.

Throw all of that anger on top of an already weak expansion that a lot of people were angry with for other reasons, and you get the effect of Blizzard having to do something to help mitigate the reaction. Very likely this was heavily influenced not only by a rash of unsubs, but also refund requests for cash shop and collector's edition flying mounts. Pathfinder and the return of flight was one of those things Blizzard did, most likely to stem the loss.

The problem here is that this often gets misconstrued, or misrepresented(by both sides of the argument) as "Flying was why people unsubbed in WoD", or "All the unsubs were what caused Flying to be put back". When in truth it wasn't JUST about that. It was maybe the largest issue in WoD at the time, but it was exacerbated by an entire array of problems with WoD.

You may not think any of this has any value. Hell, you might ignore that any of it happened at all. But again, this is why I asked you to explain your reasoning. Because while I can't actually see the black hole inside Blizzard's decision making process, I can see the effects and responses of the players, the Community Managers, and the Dev interviews. And based on that, I can get a pretty good idea of how things went down.

What I observed happening seems to be VERY LIKELY. And it's supported by the behavior of Activision-Blizzard's actions as a corporation in other areas. Maybe I'm wrong and there's some other bizarre explanation. But at least I'm basing my opinion on actual observed occurrences and behavior instead of just making something up out of thin air based on feelings.

[Relapses]

What I observed happening seems to be VERY LIKELY. And it's supported by the behavior of Activision-Blizzard's actions as a corporation in other areas. Maybe I'm wrong and there's some other bizarre explanation. But at least I'm basing my opinion on actual observed occurrences and behavior instead of just making something up out of thin air based on feelings.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here because I see your assertion as tenuous as you see mine.

(I'll commend you for not getting upset and ignoring me this time.)

[SirCowdog]

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here because I see your assertion as tenuous as you see mine.

(I'll commend you for not getting upset and ignoring me this time.)

What it comes down to is what you said earlier: "I was unaware I had to justify an opinion with evidence."

You can believe whatever you want. But if you want OTHERS to believe what you do, then you need to support it with some kind of reasoning that makes sense. So far as I can tell, your belief about Pathfinder and flying is based on what you think devs should be able to do, and what my arguments might lead to. That is flimsy as all hell.

Whereas my point of view is based on actual observed actions and behavior out of Blizzard. You clearly don't agree with that, but it's a damn sight more concrete than what you're arguing. And despite everything that's been explained to you, you're still sticking to your feelings on the subject. Which I guess takes a certain amount of mental fortitude.

But I'll tell you right now, the reason why I've come across so harsh to you is because it looks to me more like sticking your head in the sand and plugging your ears than anything else. And that's after a long line of other pro-blizzard, anti-flight, ground arguing people using the same sort of stance. And while I recognize that you're not any of those things, the way you're arguing is REALLY damn similar.

[Chemii]

Players that think wow is a grind fucking zoomers.

Knowledge: There is nothing to do with flying after obtaining it that you weren't already doing. Obtaining flying is pretty much the expansion outside of dungeons & raids, everything else is just a failed feature that sucks balls.

[Dakara]

Flying or no flying, I can accept either.

What I despise however, is a game where the travel time takes longer than the actual task you’re trying to accomplish. Is it just me or has mob density increased? More mobs on the roads? In-clear pathing through terrain? When grounded, I spent more time travelling to WQ’s than I did completing them... often times killing more mobs on the road than the actual quests.

I can get onboard with the exploration being meaningful while grounded, but aggroing 100 mobs on the roadside between WQ’s isn’t exploration, it’s an annoyance.

Over the last 15 years of WOW, Blizzard have often had great ideas only to take it a step too far and ruin what they set out to achieve.

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Players that think wow is a grind fucking zoomers.

Knowledge: There is nothing to do with flying after obtaining it that you weren't already doing. Obtaining flying is pretty much the expansion outside of dungeons & raids, everything else is just a failed feature that sucks balls.

Here’s the thing. On average, I probably play WOW 2-3 days a week outside of raid nights for an hour or 2 each time. Between my job, family and other hobbies, I don’t log into wow every day. So, I’d clear my 3 emissaries twice a week and hopefully get a guild +10 on the 3rd day.

Now that I have flying, I get so much more done in the same amount of time.

[Dorthonion1]

Because the Blizzard Devs have got this notion into their heads that flying is a cancer to the game and that really, even if think we want flying, we'll enjoy the game more if we don't get flying. Sadly a loud vocal minority agreed with them which simply validated their delusion.

I guess we should be thankful we even get flying at all.

LOL, stop moaning. Blizzard is not the government. If you disagree with something they do, don't pay for the game.

[vipers]

WTF there is rep grinding on MMO game ?

[AmbervaleX]

My opinion here is to have flying released after a much shorter time. Pathfinder I is for my part a very acceptable requirement. It makes reaching that goal quickly a good incentive to do WQs, quests and exploration early. But as many others say, after a while it just becomes a dull grind to keep up with azerite level or similar.

I have to say, however, that there is a lot in the thread presented as facts. Heavy use of "actually" or "fact of the matter" with no proof. Lots of feelings seem to be about whether flying affects world PvP. But saying that is either all or nothing is plain wrong, as there are always shades of gray. I might for example fly to an opposite side of a WQ area if someone is ganking on the other side, as my world PvP usually consists of me being killed. That is an effect on world PvP, beneficial for me trying to avoid it. Are there other, larger, things affecting world PvP? Probably. Could it be improved by other, better, means? Probably. But saying there is no effect whatsoever is not right.

[Didly]

Restrict flight while war mode is on also solves this neatly.

Provided there is some sort of additional reward buff (or some other more elegant solution) to compensate I can 100% get behind this idea. I'm sure there's some creative way to have the two paths (pvp and pve) take similar amounts of time to accomplish the same goals.

[tmamass]

And, to be blunt: that was a huge mistake. Cata felt soo forgettable and disconnected FOR ME.

Imho it was great leveling with flying and made deepholm very enjoyable.

[baskev]

woot a other flying post, while the expansion is not even close to beta yet....ffs...

There have been several reasons stated by players who are not pro/anti flying. And by the pro or anti groups. If you look at most of the polls. They like the current system. But do not like that pathfinder 2 is later.

My opinion flying should be there after the first content patch of gameplay patch. ( so 0,5 or 1.0 ) Maybe a bit later. This gives people time to level, so not that you get flying ganked in pvp realm. Or your elite's/quest objectives keep getting farmed infront of you.


But blizzard also has given a good reason. They do not want to make content that cost time and money etc to make. Just to have people flying over it. it a waste of time and money. And people will burn thru content faster. And then they will whine....where is my content.

[SirCowdog]

Provided there is some sort of additional reward buff (or some other more elegant solution) to compensate I can 100% get behind this idea. I'm sure there's some creative way to have the two paths (pvp and pve) take similar amounts of time to accomplish the same goals.

A reward buff to what? War mode already has bonus rewards for gold and some resources, as well as PVP-only talents. What more do you need?

The entire point of restricting flight in War Mode would be to satisfy those who want the grounded PVP experience. PVE only players who want the grounded experience can....just not use their flying mounts, and have the entire length of the Pathfinder unlock to do that.

I admit that it's a bandaid fix. But it's one that covers a LOT of the issues people have, while simultaneously being a VERY easy fix to apply. More in-depth and lengthy solutions would be best, of course, but they have the downside of taking a lot more work and dev time from Blizzard.

- - - Updated - - -

But blizzard also has given a good reason. They do not want to make content that cost time and money etc to make. Just to have people flying over it. it a waste of time and money. And people will burn thru content faster. And then they will whine....where is my content.

This has already been solved.

Shadowlands is a mythical land that doesn't need terrain to conform to normal rules of continents and geology. Each zone can, and probably SHOULD, be in its own instance. This removes the problem of players going from a zone they have flying unlocked to one they don't. The story of Shadowlands is linear, so Blizzard can easily put the unlocks for each zone behind the story of each zone.

[WinningOne]

The hardcore no-lifed it in a record time anyway, so gating didn't stop them from zooming through it. The losers are the casuals who support this game, yet they get treated with repetitive boring chores every day leaving them no time to really enjoy the game. It makes absolutely no sense.

I quit several times and even when I reactivated, I played once, or twice max per week, no longer than 1 hour a day and couldn't stand looking at the same zone anymore.

Who thought of this anyway? What's wrong with simply just not giving flying to anyone until a certain time has passed rather than make people hate your own game. This is beyond ridiculous.

Flying mounts were originally removed because some Blizzard devs were angry about players flying over their carefully crafted content. The devs were convinced many players weren't having fun with WoW because of that and believed things would get much better if players would just take 5 minutes to land and look around. The pathfinder achievement was created because Blizzard tried to remove flight and force players to walk but a large portion of the player base disagreed and became upset. Anyway, the point is the pathfinder achievement wasn't created to make flying available to all players. It was created as a "compromise" between artistically outraged developers and a player base who didn't want to be told what was fun. In my opinion the players got the short end of the stick.

[glowpipe]

Pathfinder should still be there. you should go through some hoops before you can fly. Something like having to visit all flightmasters, explore all zones and maybe finish the zone story. Rep and timegating on the other hand.. Should fuck straight off. No need what so ever to have bs like that

[baskev]

This has already been solved.

Shadowlands is a mythical land that doesn't need terrain to conform to normal rules of continents and geology. Each zone can, and probably SHOULD, be in its own instance. This removes the problem of players going from a zone they have flying unlocked to one they don't. The story of Shadowlands is linear, so Blizzard can easily put the unlocks for each zone behind the story of each zone.

Because the landmasses are not phased from other players. Blizzard says its because people skip content. Then yeah.

But it does not fix the dive bomb in pvp, mob/elite/quests being farmed away from the masses with people with flying etc.

Do not get me wrong. I think pathfinder is a good system, but it needs a change. But the MoP model to get flying when you ding max level is to fast. But a quicker time table i am okay with.

[SirCowdog]

Because the landmasses are not phased from other players. Blizzard says its because people skip content. Then yeah.

But it does not fix the dive bomb in pvp, mob/elite/quests being farmed away from the masses with people with flying etc.

Do not get me wrong. I think pathfinder is a good system, but it needs a change. But the MoP model to get flying when you ding max level is to fast. But a quicker time table i am okay with.

Disable flight while in War Mode: All pvp issues solved.

Require a pathfinder-like achievement for each zone: Skipping content solved.


How are people still misunderstanding this? Flying at the beginning of an expansion, with no timed lockouts would require a complete and total overhaul of how Blizzard designs content. They've made it clear that they're not willing to do this. I think that decision is a path of weakness, but maybe people really like their repetitive WQ/Emissary grind. I don't know.

But as long as we're stuck with Pathfinder, what I mentioned above is a simple and easy fix that makes literally everyone happy except the greediest number-crunchers at Blizzard corporate HQ. And those guys wouldn't be happy unless they could literally make players into indentured servants who's paychecks went directly info offshore Blizzard accounts. So fuck them, and give us a reasonable system.

[baskev]

Disable flight while in War Mode: All pvp issues solved.

Require a pathfinder-like achievement for each zone: Skipping content solved.


How are people still misunderstanding this? Flying at the beginning of an expansion, with no timed lockouts would require a complete and total overhaul of how Blizzard designs content. They've made it clear that they're not willing to do this. I think that decision is a path of weakness, but maybe people really like their repetitive WQ/Emissary grind. I don't know.

But as long as we're stuck with Pathfinder, what I mentioned above is a simple and easy fix that makes literally everyone happy except the greediest number-crunchers at Blizzard corporate HQ. And those guys wouldn't be happy unless they could literally make players into indentured servants who's paychecks went directly info offshore Blizzard accounts. So fuck them, and give us a reasonable system.

I disagree. But hey to each his/her own.

I think pathfinder is okay.

[klogaroth]

And Wrath I believe

Wrath you could buy cold weather flying at 78 IIRC. If you didn't have proper flying you could get a loan mount in the Storm Peaks because you needed it for the zone. It was kinda slow though. Due to this some cheapskate people never bothered to buy flying for months. And had to be summoned to Naxx since they couldn't get there in person.

Cata never had "old weather flying", you could fly in the old world from level 60+. If you'd played previous expansions you could fly day 1 of Cata.

[Laqweeta]

Pathfinder exists for the sole reason to bolster time played metrics. Nothing more, nothing less.

[kieraTM]

It is simply a decision made to keep people playing the game and paying the subscription.

If you have a goal to work toward, you are much more inclined to play each day to achieve that goal. By gating flying (a feature that most players will want but don't necessarily need) behind ridiculous reputation grinds, Blizzard can ensure at least a few weeks/months of subscriptions.

It is incredibly repetitive and boring, especially when you are forced to participate in zones that you dislike (I hated Mechagon for example)

Instead of asking why it's behind a rep grind, I believe it is better to ask why you even want flying. So you can do World Quests quicker? So you can just grind quicker? Pathfinder was something that kept me subbed for a month when I returned with Classic, but I unsubbed about 30 mins after getting it. Such an anticlimactic feeling. Sure, it was cool to see KT/Zandalar from the air, but after that it is literally pointless.

Once people start seeing the psychology behind ingame decisions made to keep you playing, the easier it is to just say 'I'm not going to do this'.