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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    Those powers literally did not help her out, she needed Malfurion's help with Nathanos and still failed to stop him from raising their dead and he just walked away. If Tyrande has demigod powers even Nathanos has more power than her, and definitely Sylvanas.
    He was empowered by Val'kyr, and was injured by that fight.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    He was empowered by Val'kyr, and was injured by that fight.
    And she was empowered by Elune and needed help against him. Also what was his injury? A cut? Because he was completely fine in the raid when he was fighting back the alliance.

  3. #363
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    No one is saying Sylvanas is no longer a threat. I like how "all that" is just "oh yeah the little thing of genocide, raising the night elf dead and fighting malfurion 1v1, but Anduin is probably implying sylvanas is not a threat now so she shouldn't try to go after Sylvanas!". That's literally not how it works. It's actually irrational to believe that sylvanas is no longer a threat, and if you think that is what Anduin and Shandris are implying that here (which they aren't) it would only make them irrational. Pretending characters only have one motive to do anything is pretty stupid as well, she is the only one trying to actually help the people who were still in Darkshore and now it seems she's trying to set up a new home for them in Hyjal, Anduin really only seems concerned with what the horde thinks so much that he went behind her back to make a treaty with them and expected her to agree to it.
    Do you ever read my posts or do you just make your strawman and reply to that?

    I am never claiming any character stated Sylvanas wasn't a threat. My statement is she is a diminished threat (and lack of threat also doesn't imply "no threat", but rather no real or current threat, I am sorry that you assume that, but I assume you actually read my posts, but based on evidence, I am going to start assuming you haven't read one.) ... that goes from a lowered threat to no threat, not just no threat. You can't take something I state and accept as "evidence" that I am wrong. Seriously, I have never in my time dealing with creationists, flat earthers and anti-vaxxers dealt with someone who strawmans as much as you do.

    I am not pretending anything, why seriously, stop this crap, it's annoying. I have been arguing that you have a character that should have multiple motives that you know you show them. You have Anduin and Shandris arguing that both the Horde and Sylvanas are a diminished threat, and that there are other things that people should be focusing on. How difficult would it have been to put in a line where Tyrande states "I will not underestimate the Banshee again." or the like? It shows, not lists multiple motives ... but to you that listing them. I am arguing that Tyrande should have multiple motives and good story telling is showing those motives ... they had five lines, five tries to show that ... they chose to show one. Therefor, it is only assumption that Tyrande even views Sylvanas as a threat because her lines support possibilities that she doesn't.

    You bring up what she did as Warchief of the Horde with a large army and forces under her command ... Sylvanas doesn't have that now. Sylvanas' action are know to have turned some of her former allies against her. You have other alliance leaders speaking to Tyrande that Sylvanas is a diminished threat and they need to focus on other issues for the moment. That is the right time to show exactly what level of threat Tyrande views Sylvanas ... they chose not to show and the only thing worse the telling is expecting your readers to come to your assumed conclusion based on limited info.

    And on top of all this, it is possible that even Shandris, based on one of her lines as SHE is realizing that Tyrande is acting irrationally and that is she worried what the actions of Tyrande is going to do to Tyrande and Tyrande's relationships with the other Alliance leaders. You have somewhat decent writing next to a person that is just all just "VENGEANCE!"
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-10-10 at 01:00 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Do you ever read my posts or do you just make your strawman and reply to that?

    I am never claiming any character stated Sylvanas wasn't a threat. My statement is she is a diminished threat (and lack of threat also doesn't imply "no threat", but rather no real or current threat, I am sorry that you assume that, but I assume you actually read my posts, but based on evidence, I am going to start assuming you haven't read one.) ... that goes from a lowered threat to no threat, not just no threat. You can't take something I state and accept as "evidence" that I am wrong. Seriously, I have never in my time dealing with creationists, flat earthers and anti-vaxxers dealt with someone who strawmans as much as you do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    And yes, Sylvanas did all that ... but Tyrande had two people informing her of the LACK OF THREAT (without actually "spelling it out to her")
    Really just stop change your argument every time you're shown to be incorrect. That part never happened, they never implied Sylvanas was a lack of a threat, I called you out for it and now you are pretending you did not say it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Therefor, it is only assumption that Tyrande even views Sylvanas as a threat because her lines support possibilities that she doesn't.
    It's also a baseless assumption that she does not view Sylvanas as a threat, Tyrande viewing Sylvanas as a threat is backed up more by previous event than the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    You bring up what she did as Warchief of the Horde with a large army and forces under her command ... Sylvanas doesn't have that now. Sylvanas' action are know to have turned some of her former allies against her. You have other alliance leaders speaking to Tyrande that Sylvanas is a diminished threat and they need to focus on other issues for the moment. That is the right time to show exactly what level of threat Tyrande views Sylvanas ... they chose not to show and the only thing worse the telling is expecting your readers to come to your assumed conclusion based on limited info.

    And on top of all this, it is possible that even Shandris, based on one of her lines as SHE is realizing that Tyrande is acting irrationally and that is she worried what the actions of Tyrande is going to do to Tyrande and Tyrande's relationships with the other Alliance leaders. You have somewhat decent writing next to a person that is just all just "VENGEANCE!"
    Which includes 1v1ing Malfurion. A super powerful evil entity that still has a bunch of followers is a threat regardless. This all really comes down to you needing that clarification that Tyrande views Sylvanas as a threat, which has more evidence to suggest that she does than she does not. There is NO reason to ignore the threat of Sylvanas, Anduin is being entirely irrational if you think he sees her as a "lack of a threat" same goes for Shandris (Shandris who has been more of a proponent for humans than her own people throughout her war campaign).

  5. #365
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    Really just stop change your argument every time you're shown to be incorrect. That part never happened, they never implied Sylvanas was a lack of a threat, I called you out for it and now you are pretending you did not say it.
    I haven't once. Please prove where I have that wasn't just either your strawman or your assumption of my argument.

    It's also a baseless assumption that she does not view Sylvanas as a threat, Tyrande viewing Sylvanas as a threat is backed up more by previous event than the other way around.
    Except when other characters that have seen more of her powers are preaching caution. Just because you see one assumption as "baseless" doesn't A) grant any other assumption anything or B) makes it actually baseless.

    Which includes 1v1ing Malfurion. A super powerful evil entity that still has a bunch of followers is a threat regardless. This all really comes down to you needing that clarification that Tyrande views Sylvanas as a threat, which has more evidence to suggest that she does than she does not.
    Except my point is you can still look at everything and see that Tyrande appears to care far more for her vengeance on Sylvanas than any threat she may pose. Which means despite your personal feelings, another viewer would be 100% justified in the stance of going "Wait, does Tyrande even view Sylvanas as a threat anymore?" Which has been my point this entire argument that you claim I changed. Dude, your strawmen were never my argument.

    The "changes" were me responding to your inane strawmen.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-10-10 at 01:21 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I haven't once. Please prove where I have that wasn't just either your strawman or your assumption of my argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    And yes, Sylvanas did all that ... but Tyrande had two people informing her of the LACK OF THREAT (without actually "spelling it out to her")
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I am never claiming any character stated Sylvanas wasn't a threat. My statement is she is a diminished threat (and lack of threat also doesn't imply "no threat", but rather no real or current threat, I am sorry that you assume that, but I assume you actually read my posts, but based on evidence, I am going to start assuming you haven't read one.) ... that goes from a lowered threat to no threat, not just no threat.
    I used your words of "lack of a threat". No character has said or implied Sylvanas is a "lack of a threat", Sylvanas is still a big threat. Tyrande stating that doesn't change that fact and is unneeded in a conversation where Anduin has been unwilling to help the night elves after his bad intel lead to the destruction of the night elves home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Except when other characters that have seen more of her powers are preaching caution. Just because you see one assumption as "baseless" doesn't A) grant any other assumption anything or B) makes it actually baseless.
    The claim that Sylvanas is a "lack of a threat" is the baseless one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Except my point is you can still look at everything and see that Tyrande appears to care far more for her vengeance on Sylvanas than any threat she may pose. Which means despite your personal feelings, another viewer would be 100% justified in the stance of going "Wait, does Tyrande even view Sylvanas as a threat anymore?" Which has been my point this entire argument that you claim I changed. Dude, your strawmen were never my argument.

    The "changes" were me responding to your inane strawmen.
    Your point has been Tyrande needs to say or imply Sylvanas is a threat or she is being irrational. And again saying Tyrande doesn't view Sylvanas as a threat has far less evidence than her viewing her as a threat, she can go after her for more than just vengeance even if that could be a primary motivator, crazy I know.

  7. #367
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    I used your words of "lack of a threat". No character has said or implied Sylvanas is a "lack of a threat", Sylvanas is still a big threat. Tyrande stating that doesn't change that fact and is unneeded in a conversation where Anduin has been unwilling to help the night elves after his bad intel lead to the destruction of the night elves home.
    "She no longer leads the Horde" can be read like that. Lack of threat =/= no threat. That's not changing the argument, that you playing semantics to build a strawman. And given in prior posts I have stated "diminished threat", you have no excuse for reading "lack of threat" as no threat.

    So thank you for showing exactly how you are strawmanning ... good job. /slow clap.

    The claim that Sylvanas is a "lack of a threat" is the baseless one.
    It is 100% not, because that is built on the assumption "Lack of threat" means no threat.

    Your point has been Tyrande needs to say or imply Sylvanas is a threat or she is being irrational. And again saying Tyrande doesn't view Sylvanas as a threat has far less evidence than her viewing her as a threat, she can go after her for more than just vengeance even if that could be a primary motivator, crazy I know.
    She is being irrational by doing for seeking vengeance. Vengeance isn't a rational motive ... period. Doing anything for vengeance is irrational behavior.
    She is being irrational, regardless of whether or not she views Sylvanas as any level of threat or not.

    Yes, she can ... but you have to get this show that motivation ... I know, that's crazy. You don't leave it up to people to assume it ... that's shitty writing. You don't need to tell it either, you have to show it.

    I have literally stated this numerous times to you already, but thanks for continuing to prove you don't read.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-10-10 at 01:42 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    "She no longer leads the Horde" can be read like that. Lack of threat =/= no threat. That's not changing the argument, that you playing semantics to build a strawman. And given in prior posts I have stated "diminished threat", you have no excuse for reading "lack of threat" as no threat.
    That is specifically in relation to the horde, not Sylvanas. Shandris is trying to imply the horde is no longer evil because Sylvanas isn't in charge, but that is also a naive statement as she had massive support prior to her running away and Garrosh had massive support as well. Tyrande is being understandably cautious. No one is implying Sylvanas is "a lack of a threat".

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    It is 100% not, because that is built on the assumption "Lack of threat" means no threat.
    It is, and no one is implying Sylvanas is "a lack of a threat". She is still a threat and getting rid of her would be a good thing for Azeroth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    She is being irrational by doing for seeking vengeance. Vengeance isn't a rational motive ... period. Doing anything for vengeance is irrational behavior.
    She is being irrational, regardless of whether or not she views Sylvanas as any level of threat or not.

    Yes, she can ... but you have to get this show that motivation ... I know, that's crazy. You don't leave it up to people to assume it ... that's shitty writing. You don't need to tell it either, you have to show it.

    I have literally stated this numerous times to you already, but thanks for continuing to prove you don't read.
    She's absolutely not being irrational, getting rid of Sylvanas is a rational and good goal even if she is motivated by vengeance. Imply things is fine writing, you don't need her to state it. The writing in wow is low tier shit and has been for a long time, giving night elves next to no content in BFA is a huge indicator of this. You are pretending Tyrande needs to spell out all her intentions in the short amount of text blizzard is giving her in this entire expansion, we have no idea what the night elves are even doing really even after WoT. So yes the writing in wow is complete shit, but not because Tyrande isn't saying "I think Sylvanas is a threat", it's for A LOT of other shit and neglect of races in the story.

  9. #369
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    That is specifically in relation to the horde, not Sylvanas. Shandris is trying to imply the horde is no longer evil because Sylvanas isn't in charge, but that is also a naive statement as she had massive support prior to her running away and Garrosh had massive support as well. Tyrande is being understandably cautious. No one is implying Sylvanas is "a lack of a threat".
    "Can be read" means that it can be viewed as such. Your view =/= Fact. You take your opinion on a statement, make that opinion fact and anyone who potentially reads it differently than you is wrong.

    It is, and no one is implying Sylvanas is "a lack of a threat". She is still a threat and getting rid of her would be a good thing for Azeroth.
    Will it? We don't know the plans for the future. And yes, they are by choosing to focus resources on another threat. That means she is a diminished threat, they are devoting some resources to her, but right now the larger issue is N'Zoth. It is a reduced threat, sorry, facts are on my side here.

    She's absolutely not being irrational, getting rid of Sylvanas is a rational and good goal even if she is motivated by vengeance. Imply things is fine writing, you don't need her to state it. The writing in wow is low tier shit and has been for a long time, giving night elves next to no content in BFA is a huge indicator of this. You are pretending Tyrande needs to spell out all her intentions in the short amount of text blizzard is giving her in this entire expansion, we have no idea what the night elves are even doing really even after WoT. So yes the writing in wow is complete shit, but not because Tyrande isn't saying "I think Sylvanas is a threat", it's for A LOT of other shit and neglect of races in the story.
    No, vengeance is an emotional response, therefor cannot be rational. You can't respond rationally and emotionally.

    You are making the ends justify the means argument, which itself isn't a rational argument. It is an argument that attempts to rationalize the irrational. Killing Sylvanas is good, therefor any reason to kill her also good ... that isn't a good argument, it is bad.

    We have a character with less lines make her intention clear in the same few lines ... but expecting the same for Tyrande is too much? Shandris argued for why the Horde shouldn't be viewed as the enemy right now, possibly we should move beyond Sylvanas for the moment AND spoke her concern over Tyrande's actions ... in three. But Tyrande in five can't show more than a single motive? Are you kidding me right now?
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-10-10 at 02:04 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    "Can be read" means that it can be viewed as such. Your view =/= Fact. You take your opinion on a statement, make that opinion fact and anyone who potentially reads it differently than you is wrong.
    Yeah, you can be interpreting it incorrectly, as Tyrande specifically addresses the horde after, but that's on you. It's pretty clear what is being said as shandris is also talking specifally about the leadership immeidately after:

    Shandris: The Banshee Queen no longer leads the Horde. Those who do seem more inclined toward peace than war.

    Tyrande: If the wolf is rabid, it matters not who rides it. Sooner or later, the beast will bare its fangs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Will it? We don't know the plans for the future. And yes, they are by choosing to focus resources on another threat. That means she is a diminished threat, they are devoting some resources to her, but right now the larger issue is N'Zoth. It is a reduced threat, sorry, facts are on my side here.
    It could be, but as we have seen Sylvanas pretty much just does evil things. But you should now be complaining that Blizzard hasn't spelled out what would happen if Sylvanas dies, just as they didn't spell out all the reasons Tyrande is going after Sylvanas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    No, vengeance is an emotional response, therefor cannot be rational. You can't respond rationally and emotionally.

    You are making the ends justify the means argument, which itself isn't a rational argument. It is an argument that attempts to rationalize the irrational.
    Anduin's quest for peace is also driven by emotion, same as his desire to trust the horde, but I don't see you screaming about him acting irrationally. Anduin intentionally prolonged the war by withdrawing the troops from the troll city because he didn't want to be like Sylvanas, another "irrational" decision to you. Most things people do are driven by emotion, but that doesn't mean they are all irrational.

  11. #371
    This board is beyond cringe now. Fucking yikes my dudes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    Yeah, you can be interpreting it incorrectly, as Tyrande specifically addresses the horde after, but that's on you. It's pretty clear what is being said as shandris is also talking specifally about the leadership immeidately after:





    It could be, but as we have seen Sylvanas pretty much just does evil things. But you should now be complaining that Blizzard hasn't spelled out what would happen if Sylvanas dies, just as they didn't spell out all the reasons Tyrande is going after Sylvanas.



    Anduin's quest for peace is also driven by emotion, same as his desire to trust the horde, but I don't see you screaming about him acting irrationally. Anduin intentionally prolonged the war by withdrawing the troops from the troll city because he didn't want to be like Sylvanas, another "irrational" decision to you. Most things people do are driven by emotion, but that doesn't mean they are all irrational.

    Thank you for actually being intelligent about the conversation. I agree with you.

  12. #372
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    Yeah, you can be interpreting it incorrectly, as Tyrande specifically addresses the horde after, but that's on you. It's pretty clear what is being said as shandris is also talking specifally about the leadership immeidately after:
    Just as you can be, Tyrande does specifically specify the Horde afterward ... but how do you know Shandris' implications? Perhaps Tyrande is only responding to what she believes Shandris is talking about? That's the problem, you see that your view is the only correct view ... I don't. Unless something is stated point blank, I don't take it as 100% fact ... you seem to take any opinion you have as 100% fact.

    It could be, but as we have seen Sylvanas pretty much just does evil things. But you should now be complaining that Blizzard hasn't spelled out what would happen if Sylvanas dies, just as they didn't spell out all the reasons Tyrande is going after Sylvanas.
    Me this argument: We don't know for sure.
    You: You want it spelled out! it is clear because anyone who views the story differently than me is wrong!

    Anduin's quest for peace is also driven by emotion, same as his desire to trust the horde, but I don't see you screaming about him acting irrationally. Anduin intentionally prolonged the war by withdrawing the troops from the troll city because he didn't want to be like Sylvanas, another "irrational" decision to you. Most things people do are driven by emotion, but that doesn't mean they are all irrational.
    This argument isn't about Anduin, this topic isn't about Anduin, why the frick would I be ranting about Anduin in a topic on Tyrande?
    Yes, Anduin does things irrationally, but he is what? 19? I kind of expect irrationality from a child.

    If the reason you do something is because of emotion, it is irrational. Just because you can attempt to rationalize it doesn't make it rational.
    For example, "I don't want to become like Sylvanas" is a bit more complex ... was it emotional? Or did he reason out that defeating her by acting like her doesn't solve the problem and continues further violence overall? However, in the case you list, regardless of it's rationality, Anduin's actions against holding the city were naive at best. Holding the city wouldn't make him like Sylvanas in anyway, because Sylvanas would have razed the city.

    Even then, Anduin for his existence has done things irrationally ... that is what he has done. He is naive, he has hope, etc ... I expect his irrationality. Also, most things people do are also irrational on some level so the fact people do things for emotion is meaningless even to mention.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-10-10 at 02:28 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Just as you can be, Tyrande does specifically specify the Horde afterward ... but how do you know Shandris' implications? Perhaps Tyrande is only responding to what she believes Shandris is talking about? That's the problem, you see that your view is the only correct view ... I don't. Unless something is stated point blank, I don't take it as 100% fact ... you seem to take any opinion you have as 100% fact.
    You can interpret it anyway you want, it does not mean you are correct about it when the context of her line is made clear in the second part of her line as well as Tyrande's follow up. Mostly you are just being emotional about this so you are going to keep doubling down on pretending Shandris was saying "sylvanas is a lack of a threat", because you're not really explaining why she is saying that here so there isn't much of a point in discussing it further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Me this argument: We don't know for sure.
    You: You want it spelled out! it is clear because anyone who views the story differently than me is wrong!
    You've said many times that Blizzard needs to put in a line to imply Tyrande views her as a threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    "The little lion is underestimating the Banshee still" ... something like that totally can't be worked into Tyrande's five lines at all. They couldn't have found any way to include Tyrande at other points in the story either ... nope.
    Yes, that is spelling it out, it's also unnecessary, there is just nothing to imply she doesn't view her as a threat, the audience already knows Sylvanas is a threat, a revelation would be is if Tyrande said she doesn't view Sylvanas as a threat, which would be irrational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    This argument isn't about Anduin, this topic isn't about Anduin, why the frick would I be ranting about Anduin in a topic on Tyrande?
    Yes, Anduin does things irrationally, but he is what? 19? I kind of expect irrationality from a child.

    If the reason you do something is because of emotion, it is irrational. Just because you can attempt to rationalize it doesn't make it rational.
    For example, "I don't want to become like Sylvanas" is a bit more complex ... was it emotional? Or did he reason out that defeating her by acting like her doesn't solve the problem and continues further violence overall? However, in the case you list, regardless of it's rationality, Anduin's actions against holding the city were naive at best. Holding the city wouldn't make him like Sylvanas in anyway, because Sylvanas would have razed the city.

    Even then, Anduin for his existence has done things irrationally ... that is what he has done. He is naive, he has hope, etc ... I expect his irrationality. Also, most things people do are also irrational on some level so the fact people do things for emotion is meaningless even to mention.
    Actually you made it about emotions in general being irrational. Why would Tyrande listen to two people acting emotionally? Yes Anduin and Shandris are both emotionally charged here as well, but for peace. In this case there is no outcome where Tyrande wouldn't be acting irrationally to you. It's either listen to herself or listen to Anduin acting emotionally (Irrationally to you), both are "irrational" decisions. The entire peace is driven by emotion and trust, which is irrational to you.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    You can interpret it anyway you want, it does not mean you are correct about it when the context of her line is made clear in the second part of her line as well as Tyrande's follow up. Mostly you are just being emotional about this so you are going to keep doubling down on pretending Shandris was saying "sylvanas is a lack of a threat", because you're not really explaining why she is saying that here so there isn't much of a point in discussing it further.
    And this entire argument is the same for you part. You are assuming, but you are treating your assumption as a fact rather than your viewpoint.

    You've said many times that Blizzard needs to put in a line to imply Tyrande views her as a threat.
    I know, it is totally crazy to expect a person who believes someone is a threat to mention or imply that in a conversation about threats ... totally unrealistic expectations here.

    Yes, that is spelling it out, it's also unnecessary, there is just nothing to imply she doesn't view her as a threat, the audience already knows Sylvanas is a threat, a revelation would be is if Tyrande said she doesn't view Sylvanas as a threat, which would be irrational.
    You and I have very different definitions of spelling it out. What the audience knows is not equal to what a character knows. We could know Sylvanas is a threat, but that means literally nothing to what Tyrande knows. That again is you taking your interpretation of events and treating how you view it as a fact. Even though there are other completely valid ways of viewing it.

    Look at your argument, you argue that your way is the only way to interpret the facts. And any other way is wrong.

    Actually you made it about emotions in general being irrational. Why would Tyrande listen to two people acting emotionally? Yes Anduin and Shandris are both emotionally charged here as well, but for peace. In this case there is no outcome where Tyrande wouldn't be acting irrationally to you. It's either listen to herself or listen to Anduin acting emotionally (Irrationally to you), both are "irrational" decisions. The entire peace is driven by emotion and trust, which is irrational to you.
    When Anduin made his statement on Hope, that was an irrational reason to ask Tyrande to stand down. When Shandris appeal to her feelings for Tyrande to get her to stop, that was an irrational argument. When they were mentioning the change in leadership of the Horde and how the Horde will not be led by a Warchief and the fact Sylvanas was removed, isn't an irrational argument. They are using facts to justify their emotions ... which is want to do.

    Seriously, you need to stop with your strawman. I am going to spell everything out for you now because you can't be bothered.

    1) Tyrande is acting irrational because her actions are coming across purely motivated by revenge. As revenge is emotional, therefor isn't rational.
    2) It is possible to write an irrational character good, but you have to show the character is acting to themselves rationally. They are failing to do with Tyrande, but they did this okay with other characters. You have to show their thought process. We got a calm Tyrande to an irrational with nothing shown in between what rational she did. While Anduin has always done irrational things because he has hope, he believe in a better future. Anduin's irrational, while still not written well, appears true to the character traits. Blizzard has a problem when they start to alter characters for stories which is sad because of how Arthas was handled. Garrosh's decent into pure villainy was handled like shit and it just got worse for the most part since then.
    3) With characters know focused more on N'Zoth, those characters focused on N'Zoth view Sylvanas as a DIMINISHED threat in comparison. You got hung up on "lack of threat" meaning no threat. If I have a lack of funds, it doesn't mean I have no money. If I have a lack of food, it doesn't mean I have no food. Lacking something doesn't mean you have nothing of what you lack.

    You have literally done nothing but strawman me and claim it was my argument. You literally expected me to rant about Anduin in this topic because he is driven by hope. Seriously, you are the worst person I have ever debated with, and I once had a debate with VenomFangX through Youtube's message service.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-10-10 at 10:33 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    from wowhead:

    tyrande talking with genn and anduin

    anduin: The armistice is signed. At long last, the fourth war is over.

    Tyrande: No. Not while the black moon still cries out for vengeance. Not until the horde has answered for its treachery.

    Anduin: Further bloodshed will not bring back the fallen. We must renew our hope and forge a future for those who survived.

    Tyrande: And when the next warchief musters an army, will hope save you if it is stormwind that burns?

    Anduin: I know it's difficult to trust, but there are signs of change within the horde. In place of a warchief, there is now a council led by baine, thrall, and the others. I believe they can--

    tyrande: Your faith is naive, lion son. I will sign no treaty unless it is written in the banshee's blood!

    Anduin: Tyrande!

    Genn: There is truth in her words, anduin. Peace may be on the table today, but soon enough the horde will sound their drums and march for war.

    Genn: When that day comes, no scrap of parchment will hold them back.

    Anduin: The path to peace will not be easy, and not all will choose to walk it. But this is the only way to build a better future. I believe it will work, genn.

    tyrande talking with shandris later on



    shandris: You spoke harshly to king anduin, tyrande. The kaldorei can ill afford to shun the alliance. They have provided aid and comfort to us in these dark times.

    Tyrande: The young king is foolish to trust our enemies. Harsh words should be the least of his fears.

    Shandris: The banshee queen no longer leads the horde. Those who do seem more inclined toward peace than war.

    Tyrande: If the wolf is rabid, it matters not who rides it. Sooner or later, the beast will bare its fangs.

    Shandris: You are dearest to my heart, tyrande. I beg you, let go of the black moon's rage and embrace the mother's light once again. I could not bear to lose you to darkness.

    Tyrande: Know this. My hunger for vengeance will not be sated so long as sylvanas windrunner remains free--and until i know why elune abandoned her children.

    Shandris: Tyrande! Do not say such--

    tyrande: I will tarry no longer in this city of men. Let us leave for the boughs of nordrassil.

    Tyrande: From there we will dispatch the sentinels to every corner of azeroth. Let no one rest until the banshee is found!

    The title is supposed to have "and more" at the end, guess it was too long

    edit: The title has been edited, since this thread mostly focuses on tyrande and we already have another thread discussing horde leadership specifically.
    silence tyrande
    19KbBmTBCvHyA3eHFhP8UCnbx2JoYA3az6

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    And this entire argument is the same for you part. You are assuming, but you are treating your assumption as a fact rather than your viewpoint.

    I know, it is totally crazy to expect a person who believes someone is a threat to mention or imply that in a conversation about threats ... totally unrealistic expectations here.
    It's an assumption based on her history, assuming she doesn't view Sylvanas as a threat is a baseless assumption. The audience knows Sylvanas is a threat so it's safe to assume everyone else sees her as one, not seeing her as a threat would be noteworthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    When Anduin made his statement on Hope, that was an irrational reason to ask Tyrande to stand down. When Shandris appeal to her feelings for Tyrande to get her to stop, that was an irrational argument. When they were mentioning the change in leadership of the Horde and how the Horde will not be led by a Warchief and the fact Sylvanas was removed, isn't an irrational argument. They are using facts to justify their emotions ... which is want to do.

    Seriously, you need to stop with your strawman. I am going to spell everything out for you now because you can't be bothered.

    1) Tyrande is acting irrational because her actions are coming across purely motivated by revenge. As revenge is emotional, therefor isn't rational.
    2) It is possible to write an irrational character good, but you have to show the character is acting to themselves rationally. They are failing to do with Tyrande, but they did this okay with other characters. You have to show their thought process. We got a calm Tyrande to an irrational with nothing shown in between what rational she did. While Anduin has always done irrational things because he has hope, he believe in a better future. Anduin's irrational, while still not written well, appears true to the character traits. Blizzard has a problem when they start to alter characters for stories which is sad because of how Arthas was handled. Garrosh's decent into pure villainy was handled like shit and it just got worse for the most part since then.
    3) With characters know focused more on N'Zoth, those characters focused on N'Zoth view Sylvanas as a DIMINISHED threat in comparison. You got hung up on "lack of threat" meaning no threat. If I have a lack of funds, it doesn't mean I have no money. If I have a lack of food, it doesn't mean I have no food. Lacking something doesn't mean you have nothing of what you lack.

    You have literally done nothing but strawman me and claim it was my argument. You literally expected me to rant about Anduin in this topic because he is driven by hope. Seriously, you are the worst person I have ever debated with, and I once had a debate with VenomFangX through Youtube's message service.
    Anduin is purely making an emotional appeal to Tyrande to trust the horde. Shandris says the leadership has change, but Tyrande responses to that with If "the wolf is rabid, it matters not who rides it [leads it]. Sooner or later, the beast will bare its fangs". She is correct in assuming this logically. A majority of the horde supported Garrosh, they cheered when the sentinels were skinned alive, they cheered when Theramore was nuke. A majority of the horde supported Sylvanas before, during and after the genocide of the night elves. Logically Tyrande should not trust the horde or believe that anything has changed unless she sees differently. Anduin even admits to Genn he is being irrational.

    The argument that Shandris believes the horde changed because the people at the top changed hands again is also not logical, because there needs to be a huge cultural change within the horde since they have thrown a majority of their support behind evil tyrants. Also yes, if you are calling Tyrande irrational because she doesn't trust the horde and wants Sylvanas dead, you also have to call both Shandris and Anduin irrational because their arguments aren't based on anything other than a hope. Tyrande's fears are more real, in addition to the people who suffer the most when the horde decides to attack ARE the night elves. It would be illogical for Tyrande to trust or believe the horde changed until she sees a huge cultural shift as the problem is much deeper than who is in charge.

    Also about the N'zoth thing, that is not brought up to Tyrande in these exchanges, so really just like your "tyrande needs to say sylvanas is a threat", why isn't Anduin bringing that up to her? How do we know they didn't keep that a secret from her? Are you just going to ASSUME they told her? Uh oh.

    But to remind you, it was you who wanted to attack people for acting emotionally. Everyone here is acting emotionally and basing their ideas on nothing but their feelings, Tyrande has history to back her position, Anduin has his hope.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    This is exactly the same as how Jaina was in SoO. The warchief becomes a separate entity and even the horde themselves want to kill them, yet some alliance character still thinks they’re not mutually exclusive. Garrosh was dealt with and Sylvannas more then definitely will be as well. Yet somehow horde and alliance relations come into play when they have a common enemy.

    This is the second time Blizzard has turned an alliance character into a massive idiot, all for artificial tension.
    Well, it might have to do with the fact that Tyrande raises a very valid point. The Horde keeps following people like Garrosh and Sylvanas when they shout "For the Horde" loud enough. It always takes a giant wake-up call to get them to question the shit they are doing in the name of their chief. When the next genocidal maniac finds his way into a position of power it will happen again unless something drastically changes about the whole structure of the Horde. That council idea might work or it could fail spectacularly.

    I cannot blame Tyrande for feeling this way. Plus, her transformation seems to have been more then a power-up, she truely is the embodiment of Elune's vengeance, so letting go of vengeance is gonna be hard. The question is: Will Malfurion support her or stop her?

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Well, it might have to do with the fact that Tyrande raises a very valid point.
    IMO it's too close to what Sylvanas was preaching to Saurfang about peace not lasting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    That council idea might work or it could fail spectacularly.
    IMO the council idea would have worked better if they didn't seem to be trying to write off every horde leader and leave just a group that seem about as comically naive as Anduin for no reason beyond they were written as the 'good' ones.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    snip
    There's several posters on this forum that need things explicitly stated or it doesn't count, which is ridiculous for things that should be simply understood. For example, we don't see game/movie/book characters going to the toilet, but none of them say anything like "Excuse me, I must go to evacuate my bowels, as is normal for us." Why not? Because it should be understood without explicit statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    There's several posters on this forum that need things explicitly stated or it doesn't count, which is ridiculous for things that should be simply understood. For example, we don't see game/movie/book characters going to the toilet, but none of them say anything like "Excuse me, I must go to evacuate my bowels, as is normal for us." Why not? Because it should be understood without explicit statement.
    There's still literally nothing supporting your idea that Night Elven presence in Ghostlands was "an accident" like you claim, no matter how many times you repeat the flimsy defense of "just because it's not explicitly stated doesn't mean it doesn't count". Burden of proof is a thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

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