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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by allawyn View Post
    As we have seen in Europe, revenge, esp. when couple with self-righteousness, is an ugly things. It wasn't until the reconstruction of German in the aftermath of WW II, rather than "revenge", that they cycle was broken.
    I think you should take a history lesson before coming up with half baked truths. Germany literally got broken up in 4 different sectors (three of them later reunified into the BRD). Lost 1/4 of it's land mass for good.
    High ranking officials where condemned and hanged with the Nürnberg trials and 400k people got in denazification camps. Later the BRD convicted 7k and the DDR 14k additional people guilty of crimes like being part of the crew of concentration camps with 6 still in the process today 60 years after the war because info got out after all this time.
    And they had to pay a shitload of reparations and are still paying them as of today (mostly Israel) even thou not every nation affected got what they deserved (Sorry Poles and Greek)

    Yeah, Germany got help right after the war but they also got broken up, lost every form of independence and only got that back partly at the beginnings of the cold war when they had to face their own as potential enemies.

    So, where the hell are the trials for the Horde? Where are the detainment camps to get rid of her ideology? What reparations are paid? What kind of land did they lose? Which foreign power is controlling them right now?

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by allawyn View Post
    The problem is; your "genocidal maniacs" are "people who just happen to be the same race as a genocidal maniac".
    First of all, they are mostly orcs and Sylvanas is an elf, so even that is incorrect.

    Ignoring this, the Horde was perfectly fine following Sylvanas long after Teldrassil was burned down. Baine and Saurfang were the only ones who wanted to defy the Warchief, everyone else had no issues. Only after Baine was imprisoned we see some sort of reaction from other faction leaders.

    Then the war is suddenly over, because leader of the rebels dueled Sylvanas and lost, but she conveniently decided that she doesn't need the Horde anyway. So there was no victory, no one was really punished.

    I mean, it's not only Tyrande who should be angry at this. Just think about Talanji - she has no idea who Thrall is, only briefly saw Saurfang at the Stockades, but she's supposed to accept that they're now at peace with her father's killers. All because Saurfang died in a duel... against a Warchief who has only recently accepted the Zandalari into the Horde. That's completely backwards and insane.

    We have barely seen any civil war or rebellion take place across multiple patches and then suddenly everything ended in five minutes. If they're trying to show Horde in a good light, they're doing a terrible job at it. Almost no one complained about Sylvanas rule, until now.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by allawyn View Post
    The problem is; your "genocidal maniacs" are "people who just happen to be the same race as a genocidal maniac".
    Oh, that again, "It was her, the rest of us had nothing to do with it."
    Calia getting all cozy with the abominations who spearheaded the slaughter of nelves doesn't help either.

  4. #404
    Blademaster jpch's Avatar
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    The hate for Tyrande is unreal, people calling her ''Irrational'' and ''blinded by revenge'' are some of the most naive,inexperienced hypocrites around.
    Emotions,even dark ones are not a bad thing, stop trying to sprinkle ''rational'' in your arguments,these are Night Elves in a fantasy medieval setting not the United Nations nor vulcan bible ! Have you never been hurt personally and wanted to get back at the other person??You know you have, so now imagine having your people killed and burnt,genocided, your lands invaded, your capital city destroyed, one of the worlds greatest heroes almost killed ! even if Sylvanas gets the Kerrigan treatment the Horde are still guilty !

    Anduin's peace = the Horde pays no reparation,no justice done, no revenge achieved, he literally gets thousands killed without seeking punishment for the Horde. He is a naive child and most people that support him are not living in the real world.

    Having Tyrande agree with Anduin= bad writing.
    This expansion is doing a great job at portraying her the same way she was in WC3, a great leader,stubborn and strong, a powerful Amazonian Priestess.

  5. #405
    Anduin is not the smartest in any shed, night elfs got burned alive in teldrassil, and alot of them. So why is he saying peace, peace and peace. At the very least genn is still thinking normally.

    Hopefully Azshara becomes the queen of night elf with Tyrande as her fighter. And no i dont want tyrande as a commander in chief because that would imply that she is smart, which she isnt ofc. Azshara however might get the night elfs follow her IF she shows that even though she is still kinda a b... she wants the kaldorei empire up and running again. The night elfs would consider her if also Azshara would bring the naga into the night elfs again and remember how big Azsharas army really is.

    Imagine the horde getting atracked by night elf ships and naga from the sea, its perfect combo.

  6. #406
    Warchief Lupinemancer's Avatar
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    I'm confused, people have been whining and complaining about wanting the Night Elves to return to their original, more savage ways, like we saw in CW3 for a long time time.
    They finally did and now people are whining and complaining about that?
    Could you kids just make up your mind?

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    1. The only Attack Sylvanas mentions that does anything to make Saurfang consider starting a new war is Stormheim. There are no Horde civilians in Stormheim. If you start to call out "other attacks" we can go all the way back to WC1 where the Horde commited the first and only true unprovoked attack of the entire Faction Conflict.

    2. I think it is absolutely DISGUSTING that you try to spin Alliance pointing out the Horde has not paid a penny for their burning of children into somehow being monsters that want to kill Horde children.....this is a typical right wing strategy of trying to blame the victims and paint them as the aggressors. Please don't sink to such lows. It is among the shittiest things to try in a debate.

    3. As we have seen with the Horde (and its advocates) they are totally fine with revenge - as long as it is THEIR revenge. Most of the time for crimes that only happened in their imagination or directly go back to the crimes that THEY started with. Blizzard has painted the Alliance as the "turn the other cheek"-faction for more than a decade....and the result shows. 80% of players do not want to play victims. Rightfully so. The Horde should not have a monopoly on not being victims.

    4. Please point me to the passage where Zekhan says ANYTHING about feeling ashamed/guilty for what the Horde did during this war. I cannot think of any. He follows Saurfang. Saurfang is driven by regret. But Zekhan would have also followed him if Saurfang was just out for Beer and Hookers, because it seems the only moral compass Zekhan has is an old Orc who is now dead.
    By the way: This is quite similar to the Suramar Nightborne. They are painted as the good guys who "just want to be free" - but at NO POINT Thalyssra regrets turning her rear on the rest of Azeroth 10k years ago when they could have helped Tyrande & Co fighting the Legion. She also AT NO POINT says that lowering the shield and joining the rest of Azeroth in the current fight (as of Legion) was what she wanted before Gul'dan forced their shield down. Most people simply "assume" Thalyssra is a compassionate, honorable leader - when in fact she would not have given a rat's ass about anything shortly before Gul'dan arrived.
    OK, we have seen the ad hominem attacks, appeals to emotion, etc start-up. so I'm out after this...

    1)Yes, the "only" thing Sylvanas cited is an actual act of war against Horde. One that is typical of Alliance behavior in the past and can only be expected to occur again. If the Alliance had even sent a letter, indicating that Genn was acting without orders, it might have changed things.

    2)And you need to come down off your high horse (and political innuendo). I have to say that _I_ find it disturbing that you are blithely justifingcasting blame on the innocent and guilty alike, and justifying attacks on both. More so than my indicating that those who pay the price for a crime should be those involved, not the innocent. I don't think hypocritical self-righteousness will do much for this debate.

    3)As to the question of what you have seen Horde players post, that is a form of the red herring fallacy. Leaving aside issues with your characterization of the Alliance vs. Horde stories, I'm not those other posters. Nor do I support racist revenge by the Horde. For example, Sylvanas sees her, and her people, being rejected and hunted as justification for hating all the living. That is as wrong as Tyrande killing people for mearly being a Horde race. Similarly, if the Tauren killing Alliance for what was done to the Stonespire tribe the Alliance would be wrong.

    4) I never said anything about Zekhan. I talked about the cinematic where Thrall and Saurfang go on about how it is all their, and the Hordes, fault and how the Horde legacy is evil.

    And yes, the point about Thalyssra not being regretful of their abandoning the rest of the world is indeed something to hold against her. As is the fact that Jains has never even expressed regret for the civilians deaths she cause in Dalaran. (And no, a vague statement "we all have blood on our hands", that probably refers to deaths of the Kul Tirans she just spent a plot arc dealing with, is not it).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Plehnard View Post
    I think you should take a history lesson before coming up with half baked truths. Germany literally got broken up in 4 different sectors (three of them later reunified into the BRD). Lost 1/4 of it's land mass for good.
    High ranking officials where condemned and hanged with the Nürnberg trials and 400k people got in denazification camps. Later the BRD convicted 7k and the DDR 14k additional people guilty of crimes like being part of the crew of concentration camps with 6 still in the process today 60 years after the war because info got out after all this time.
    And they had to pay a shitload of reparations and are still paying them as of today (mostly Israel) even thou not every nation affected got what they deserved (Sorry Poles and Greek)

    Yeah, Germany got help right after the war but they also got broken up, lost every form of independence and only got that back partly at the beginnings of the cold war when they had to face their own as potential enemies.

    So, where the hell are the trials for the Horde? Where are the detainment camps to get rid of her ideology? What reparations are paid? What kind of land did they lose? Which foreign power is controlling them right now?
    Yeah, your superior attitude could use some trimming. Germany was never intentionally broken up, let alone broken up to punish the German people. The lands the lost were lost make Poland a viable country. Yes, people who took part in Nazi crimes (like Sylvanas and Nathanos are guilty of their crime), but the _people_ of Germans (like the people of the Horde that Tyrande and Genn condemn) were not punished. Which is central to my point about the blanket condemnations of a people after WWI having lead to things like Hitler and the firebombing is Dresden and that the cycle was broken by mostly avoiding such actions.

    Horde trials. You want to have trials of whom? We know that Baine and Lorethemar (all that is really left) weren't involved. You probably could run up a dozen or so people that manned the catapults, unless they were Sylvanas' chosen people who went with her.

    I mean, turning over people who helped cause Teldrasil (really caused, not are guilty by some vague "the Horde is all guilty meme) for a trial would be moral. But I have to say that the narrative seems clearly that those who planned and executed the burning have all left.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    This is exactly the same as how Jaina was in SoO. The warchief becomes a separate entity and even the horde themselves want to kill them, yet some alliance character still thinks they’re not mutually exclusive. Garrosh was dealt with and Sylvannas more then definitely will be as well. Yet somehow horde and alliance relations come into play when they have a common enemy.

    This is the second time Blizzard has turned an alliance character into a massive idiot, all for artificial tension.
    Yeah because the horde finally realizing they are being led by a nutbag makes up for genociding a race ....

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupinemancer View Post
    I'm confused, people have been whining and complaining about wanting the Night Elves to return to their original, more savage ways, like we saw in CW3 for a long time time.
    If there were actual savagery, where are the Horde bodies piling up? I want to see it. Now. Where are the Horde kicked out of nelf territory? Where are the dead Hordes who were executed in punishment of their crimes? They are nowhere and they will be nowhere.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    If there were actual savagery, where are the Horde bodies piling up? I want to see it. Now. Where are the Horde kicked out of nelf territory? Where are the dead Hordes who were executed in punishment of their crimes? They are nowhere and they will be nowhere.
    No one in the lore ever face punishment for their crimes.

    Garrosh is basically the only one who's ever been CLOSE to that.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by allawyn View Post
    Yeah, your superior attitude could use some trimming. Germany was never intentionally broken up, let alone broken up to punish the German people. The lands the lost were lost make Poland a viable country. Yes, people who took part in Nazi crimes (like Sylvanas and Nathanos are guilty of their crime), but the _people_ of Germans (like the people of the Horde that Tyrande and Genn condemn) were not punished. Which is central to my point about the blanket condemnations of a people after WWI having lead to things like Hitler and the firebombing is Dresden and that the cycle was broken by mostly avoiding such actions.

    Horde trials. You want to have trials of whom? We know that Baine and Lorethemar (all that is really left) weren't involved. You probably could run up a dozen or so people that manned the catapults, unless they were Sylvanas' chosen people who went with her.

    I mean, turning over people who helped cause Teldrasil (really caused, not are guilty by some vague "the Horde is all guilty meme) for a trial would be moral. But I have to say that the narrative seems clearly that those who planned and executed the burning have all left.
    1. About the Germany thing: I know my grandfather was imprisoned in Russia as a prisoner of war. They was "denazification" going on, some sort of US-propaganda thing, Germany was occupied for a looong time. We had to pay reparations to several countries. People were tried and executed, but not enough in my opinion.
    The real question is: how do you punish an entire country of millions and millions of people?

    2. About the Horde trials: There were taurens, blood elves etc. all present in the War of Thorns. There was even a story about Malfurion meeting a blood elf in Ashenvale who clearly stated he hated the nelves for ousting their people 10k years ago. Not to mention Sadfang was the mastermind behind the attack on the nelves, Sylvanas could never have done it without him. Not to mention the Forsaken who are puppets to their waifu. We also don't want to forget the massacre at Brennandan in which you saw Lady Liadrin happily killing healers.

    There's plenty the Horde has to stand trial for. Each and every one of them. Switching sides when the deal turns sour doesn't count (looking at you, Lor'themar)
    Last edited by Eggroll; 2019-10-13 at 08:17 PM.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post

    There's plenty the Horde has to stand trial for. Each and every one of them. Switching sides when the deal turns sour doesn't count (looking at you, Lor'themar)
    by this logic, the alliance should stand trial for their parts in setting the stage for the formation of teh horde...

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    by this logic, the alliance should stand trial for their parts in setting the stage for the formation of teh horde...
    Are you talking Medivh?

    Btw, wonder what the Alliance's new allies, the Kul'tirans think when they hear the Alliance king has no intention of getting them justice for Brennandan.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Literally none of the current Horde leadership, with the exception of perhaps Talanji, actively want war. This is the first time the Horde hasn't had a complete, hitler level warmonger among it's leadership - there's no reason to believe this will happen again. Blizzard clearly are done with the faction conflict at this point - they wouldn't have taken the story this way otherwise
    Yeah, thats what we were told when Thrall was in charge... and Vol'Jin.
    I think its pretty clear that its not working.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Watch a fourth Windrunner sister emerge from obscurity and fall in love with a dead-eye Stormwind human called "Nio Kostashazzi."
    Hahaha!! Good one!
    Go Ono Fuzzikalas, go!

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupinemancer View Post
    I'm confused, people have been whining and complaining about wanting the Night Elves to return to their original, more savage ways, like we saw in CW3 for a long time time.
    They finally did and now people are whining and complaining about that?
    Could you kids just make up your mind?
    Welcome to the WoW community, enjoy your stay!

  17. #417
    I am Murloc! Kyphael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Hahaha!! Good one!
    Go Ono Fuzzikalas, go!
    Ono Fuzzikalas? Lol That's his twin brother for a ménage à trois.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Ono Fuzzikalas? Lol That's his twin brother for a ménage à trois.
    Lol, I missspelled. It's Ono Fuzzikoalas. From a satire about the flying drama in WoD.
    https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...o-fuzzikoalas/



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by turboether View Post
    Welcome to the WoW community, enjoy your stay!
    No, it's not. Nelf players are still waiting for actual vengeance. The silly mascara scenario won't do.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Are you talking Medivh?
    More than merely Medivh...

    Blood Elves rallied with the horde largely due to treatment at the hands of Garithos and Dalaran before the entire breakdown of what was left of the Seven Kingdoms.
    Bilgewater Cartel was subjected their own eminent destruction because SI:7 saw them... and that was it.
    Darkspear Trolls nearly wiped out because Proudmoore foudn their island home while hunting to kill Thrall's orcs.
    Hell even the tauren got a taste of how fucked up alliance parties can be when dwarves came in desecrating the dead and trespassing because they felt overly entitled.

    To sit here and try blanketing the entire horde for the recent fucked up shit that some parties were responsible for is one thing but don't act like only the horde has such a past associated with them.

    Even the retconned draenei don't look so great since they were effectively leading teh legion STRAIGHT to the orcs and it turns out that was how orcs were targeted for the original blood curse almost their entire checkered past is blamed on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Btw, wonder what the Alliance's new allies, the Kul'tirans think when they hear the Alliance king has no intention of getting them justice for Brennandan.
    Probably the same thinking the tauren had when Baine proclaimed there would be no justice for Camp Taurajo and banished the tauren that tried defending their land...

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    More than merely Medivh...

    Blood Elves rallied with the horde largely due to treatment at the hands of Garithos and Dalaran before the entire breakdown of what was left of the Seven Kingdoms.
    Bilgewater Cartel was subjected their own eminent destruction because SI:7 saw them... and that was it.
    Darkspear Trolls nearly wiped out because Proudmoore foudn their island home while hunting to kill Thrall's orcs.
    Hell even the tauren got a taste of how fucked up alliance parties can be when dwarves came in desecrating the dead and trespassing because they felt overly entitled.

    To sit here and try blanketing the entire horde for the recent fucked up shit that some parties were responsible for is one thing but don't act like only the horde has such a past associated with them.

    Even the retconned draenei don't look so great since they were effectively leading teh legion STRAIGHT to the orcs and it turns out that was how orcs were targeted for the original blood curse almost their entire checkered past is blamed on.



    Probably the same thinking the tauren had when Baine proclaimed there would be no justice for Camp Taurajo and banished the tauren that tried defending their land...
    The difference here being that all the things you pointed out about the Alliance happened without player participation. WoT and Brennandan not so much. Lot's of Horde players cheered for the Burning of Teldrassil.

    The Taurajo thing was stupid though. Same thing, I agree. Makes no fucking sense.

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