*Spoilers* Tyrande's reaction to end of 4th war

[Mehrunes]

Somehow people have managed to hate both, totally reasonable positions.

Tyrande: We can't trust the Horde, and we can't just leave Sylvanas out there to do more villainy. (true)
Shandris: The Horde isn't immediately a problem, and try not to piss off our allies while we're still bunking in their cities. Pissing off both factions is you wind up as a raid boss, Tyrande.

Tyrande is hotheaded and impulsive, Shandris is level-headed and more sympathetic to the rest of the Alliance. At the least, no one can complain they're out of character.

Could it be that *gasp* different people disliked those two things? Nah, can't be

[allawyn]

Vengeance is seldom as fulfilling as those who undertake it would like it to be, but it is pretty rational - especially from an external viewpoint.

Wanting to eliminate a threat (like killing Sylvanas) is based on reason. Wanting to hurt or kill someone else, because of something, in the past is based on emotion. Revenge it emotional, not rational.

[Hablion]

"I was just following orders!" is a horrible excuse.

The Horde willingly followed Sylvanas. They are responsible for what she did to the night elves. Once again justice is denied.

Then how about they burn every town kill every citizen man woman and child and then raze the settlements again for measure would that be good enough or should they mana bomb every location held by the horde for good measure would that sate her vengeance? Multi-Genocide for Genocide does no good it makes Tyrande as bad as Sylvanis or worse.

[Eggroll]

Somehow people have managed to hate both, totally reasonable positions.

Tyrande: We can't trust the Horde, and we can't just leave Sylvanas out there to do more villainy. (true)
Shandris: The Horde isn't immediately a problem, and try not to piss off our allies while we're still bunking in their cities. Pissing off both factions is you wind up as a raid boss, Tyrande.

Tyrande is hotheaded and impulsive, Shandris is level-headed and more sympathetic to the rest of the Alliance. At the least, no one can complain they're out of character.

And when exactly was Anduin sympathetic towards the night elves? Yeah, never.

It's still mindboggling that not each and every nelf sentinel is in Darkshore cleaning out Horde, but instead standing idly in Boralus. Since when is Shandris the leader of the nelves?

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Wanting to eliminate a threat (like killing Sylvanas) is based on reason. Wanting to hurt or kill someone else, because of something, in the past is based on emotion. Revenge it emotional, not rational.

Well, Tyrande goes by

Varian's promise at the end of SoO:
"If you fail to uphold honor again, like Garrosh did, we will end you."

Anduin after Teldrassil:
"C'mon guys, that wasn't too bad at all! Having tea and biscuits with genocidal maniacs is my favorite thing!"

[turboether]

Tyrande was never hotheaded or impulsive during WoW. She was afk all the time while her Sentinels and her people were slaughtered and invaded by the Horde.
She talks a lot but never acts.

Not getting laid for 10,000 years will do that to someone.

[Moonrage]

If the wolf is rabid, it matters not who rides it. Sooner or later, the beast will bare its fangs.

She's right though. Even with a council instead of a Warchief, how long will it take for one mad individual to rile up the Horde and turn them against the Alliance again? We all thought it'd never happen again after Garrosh, yet here we are.

[allawyn]

Wanting to eliminate a threat (like killing Sylvanas) is based on reason. Wanting to hurt or kill someone else, because of something, in the past is based on emotion. Revenge it emotional, not rational.

Well, Tyrande goes by

Varian's promise at the end of SoO:
"If you fail to uphold honor again, like Garrosh did, we will end you."

Anduin after Teldrassil:
"C'mon guys, that wasn't too bad at all! Having tea and biscuits with genocidal maniacs is my favorite thing!"

The problem is; your "genocidal maniacs" are "people who just happen to be the same race as a genocidal maniac".

[Scottyjscizzle]

This is exactly the same as how Jaina was in SoO. The warchief becomes a separate entity and even the horde themselves want to kill them, yet some alliance character still thinks they’re not mutually exclusive. Garrosh was dealt with and Sylvannas more then definitely will be as well. Yet somehow horde and alliance relations come into play when they have a common enemy.

This is the second time Blizzard has turned an alliance character into a massive idiot, all for artificial tension.

Fuck that, every single loyalist needs to be stomped out. Sylvanas didn't do this shit alone just like garrosh. You don't get to magically claim innocence because your leader takes off.

[allawyn]

She's right though. Even with a council instead of a Warchief, how long will it take for one mad individual to rile up the Horde and turn them against the Alliance again? We all thought it'd never happen again after Garrosh, yet here we are.

This is sort of like the English attitude that it was OK to kill German babies before they grew up to be to start wars. Such thinking lead to the firebombing of Dresden and other mass killings of civilians.

The similarities go further. What let Sylvanas rally people to the cause of war was the unprovoked attacks and killing of civilians that the Alliance has still never even acknowledge. (As was covered in "A Good War"). This is similar to how the punishment of the German people (Kaiser and his people were gone by then) under the treaty of Versailles lead to racism.

As we have seen in Europe, revenge, esp. when couple with self-righteousness, is an ugly things. It wasn't until the reconstruction of German in the aftermath of WW II, rather than "revenge", that they cycle was broken.

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Fuck that, every single loyalist needs to be stomped out. Sylvanas didn't do this shit alone just like garrosh. You don't get to magically claim innocence because your leader takes off.

Does that include the people like Zappy boi who opposed Sylvanas? If not, what you are going to do? Have a nice witch hunt for "collaborators" where you turn in anyone who you think was too sympathetic? (Protip, this is good chance to get rid of neighbors you don't want around and minorities make good targets.)

[Nathasil]

This is sort of like the English attitude that it was OK to kill German babies before they grew up to be to start wars. Such thinking lead to the firebombing of Dresden and other mass killings of civilians.

The similarities go further. What let Sylvanas rally people to the cause of war was the unprovoked attacks and killing of civilians that the Alliance has still never even acknowledge. (As was covered in "A Good War"). This is similar to how the punishment of the German people (Kaiser and his people were gone by then) under the treaty of Versailles lead to racism.

As we have seen in Europe, revenge, esp. when couple with self-righteousness, is an ugly things. It wasn't until the reconstruction of German in the aftermath of WW II, rather than "revenge", that they cycle was broken.

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Does that include the people like Zappy boi who opposed Sylvanas? If not, what you are going to do? Have a nice witch hunt for "collaborators" where you turn in anyone who you think was too sympathetic? (Protip, this is good chance to get rid of neighbors you don't want around and minorities make good targets.)

1. The only Attack Sylvanas mentions that does anything to make Saurfang consider starting a new war is Stormheim. There are no Horde civilians in Stormheim. If you start to call out "other attacks" we can go all the way back to WC1 where the Horde commited the first and only true unprovoked attack of the entire Faction Conflict.

2. I think it is absolutely DISGUSTING that you try to spin Alliance pointing out the Horde has not paid a penny for their burning of children into somehow being monsters that want to kill Horde children.....this is a typical right wing strategy of trying to blame the victims and paint them as the aggressors. Please don't sink to such lows. It is among the shittiest things to try in a debate.

3. As we have seen with the Horde (and its advocates) they are totally fine with revenge - as long as it is THEIR revenge. Most of the time for crimes that only happened in their imagination or directly go back to the crimes that THEY started with. Blizzard has painted the Alliance as the "turn the other cheek"-faction for more than a decade....and the result shows. 80% of players do not want to play victims. Rightfully so. The Horde should not have a monopoly on not being victims.

4. Please point me to the passage where Zekhan says ANYTHING about feeling ashamed/guilty for what the Horde did during this war. I cannot think of any. He follows Saurfang. Saurfang is driven by regret. But Zekhan would have also followed him if Saurfang was just out for Beer and Hookers, because it seems the only moral compass Zekhan has is an old Orc who is now dead.
By the way: This is quite similar to the Suramar Nightborne. They are painted as the good guys who "just want to be free" - but at NO POINT Thalyssra regrets turning her rear on the rest of Azeroth 10k years ago when they could have helped Tyrande & Co fighting the Legion. She also AT NO POINT says that lowering the shield and joining the rest of Azeroth in the current fight (as of Legion) was what she wanted before Gul'dan forced their shield down. Most people simply "assume" Thalyssra is a compassionate, honorable leader - when in fact she would not have given a rat's ass about anything shortly before Gul'dan arrived.

[Plehnard]

As we have seen in Europe, revenge, esp. when couple with self-righteousness, is an ugly things. It wasn't until the reconstruction of German in the aftermath of WW II, rather than "revenge", that they cycle was broken.

I think you should take a history lesson before coming up with half baked truths. Germany literally got broken up in 4 different sectors (three of them later reunified into the BRD). Lost 1/4 of it's land mass for good.
High ranking officials where condemned and hanged with the Nürnberg trials and 400k people got in denazification camps. Later the BRD convicted 7k and the DDR 14k additional people guilty of crimes like being part of the crew of concentration camps with 6 still in the process today 60 years after the war because info got out after all this time.
And they had to pay a shitload of reparations and are still paying them as of today (mostly Israel) even thou not every nation affected got what they deserved (Sorry Poles and Greek)

Yeah, Germany got help right after the war but they also got broken up, lost every form of independence and only got that back partly at the beginnings of the cold war when they had to face their own as potential enemies.

So, where the hell are the trials for the Horde? Where are the detainment camps to get rid of her ideology? What reparations are paid? What kind of land did they lose? Which foreign power is controlling them right now?

[KaPe]

The problem is; your "genocidal maniacs" are "people who just happen to be the same race as a genocidal maniac".

First of all, they are mostly orcs and Sylvanas is an elf, so even that is incorrect.

Ignoring this, the Horde was perfectly fine following Sylvanas long after Teldrassil was burned down. Baine and Saurfang were the only ones who wanted to defy the Warchief, everyone else had no issues. Only after Baine was imprisoned we see some sort of reaction from other faction leaders.

Then the war is suddenly over, because leader of the rebels dueled Sylvanas and lost, but she conveniently decided that she doesn't need the Horde anyway. So there was no victory, no one was really punished.

I mean, it's not only Tyrande who should be angry at this. Just think about Talanji - she has no idea who Thrall is, only briefly saw Saurfang at the Stockades, but she's supposed to accept that they're now at peace with her father's killers. All because Saurfang died in a duel... against a Warchief who has only recently accepted the Zandalari into the Horde. That's completely backwards and insane.

We have barely seen any civil war or rebellion take place across multiple patches and then suddenly everything ended in five minutes. If they're trying to show Horde in a good light, they're doing a terrible job at it. Almost no one complained about Sylvanas rule, until now.

[Eggroll]

The problem is; your "genocidal maniacs" are "people who just happen to be the same race as a genocidal maniac".

Oh, that again, "It was her, the rest of us had nothing to do with it."
Calia getting all cozy with the abominations who spearheaded the slaughter of nelves doesn't help either.

[jpch]

The hate for Tyrande is unreal, people calling her ''Irrational'' and ''blinded by revenge'' are some of the most naive,inexperienced hypocrites around.
Emotions,even dark ones are not a bad thing, stop trying to sprinkle ''rational'' in your arguments,these are Night Elves in a fantasy medieval setting not the United Nations nor vulcan bible ! Have you never been hurt personally and wanted to get back at the other person??You know you have, so now imagine having your people killed and burnt,genocided, your lands invaded, your capital city destroyed, one of the worlds greatest heroes almost killed ! even if Sylvanas gets the Kerrigan treatment the Horde are still guilty !

Anduin's peace = the Horde pays no reparation,no justice done, no revenge achieved, he literally gets thousands killed without seeking punishment for the Horde. He is a naive child and most people that support him are not living in the real world.

Having Tyrande agree with Anduin= bad writing.
This expansion is doing a great job at portraying her the same way she was in WC3, a great leader,stubborn and strong, a powerful Amazonian Priestess.

[Talrath]

Anduin is not the smartest in any shed, night elfs got burned alive in teldrassil, and alot of them. So why is he saying peace, peace and peace. At the very least genn is still thinking normally.

Hopefully Azshara becomes the queen of night elf with Tyrande as her fighter. And no i dont want tyrande as a commander in chief because that would imply that she is smart, which she isnt ofc. Azshara however might get the night elfs follow her IF she shows that even though she is still kinda a b... she wants the kaldorei empire up and running again. The night elfs would consider her if also Azshara would bring the naga into the night elfs again and remember how big Azsharas army really is.

Imagine the horde getting atracked by night elf ships and naga from the sea, its perfect combo.

[Lupinemancer]

I'm confused, people have been whining and complaining about wanting the Night Elves to return to their original, more savage ways, like we saw in CW3 for a long time time.
They finally did and now people are whining and complaining about that?
Could you kids just make up your mind?

[allawyn]

1. The only Attack Sylvanas mentions that does anything to make Saurfang consider starting a new war is Stormheim. There are no Horde civilians in Stormheim. If you start to call out "other attacks" we can go all the way back to WC1 where the Horde commited the first and only true unprovoked attack of the entire Faction Conflict.

2. I think it is absolutely DISGUSTING that you try to spin Alliance pointing out the Horde has not paid a penny for their burning of children into somehow being monsters that want to kill Horde children.....this is a typical right wing strategy of trying to blame the victims and paint them as the aggressors. Please don't sink to such lows. It is among the shittiest things to try in a debate.

3. As we have seen with the Horde (and its advocates) they are totally fine with revenge - as long as it is THEIR revenge. Most of the time for crimes that only happened in their imagination or directly go back to the crimes that THEY started with. Blizzard has painted the Alliance as the "turn the other cheek"-faction for more than a decade....and the result shows. 80% of players do not want to play victims. Rightfully so. The Horde should not have a monopoly on not being victims.

4. Please point me to the passage where Zekhan says ANYTHING about feeling ashamed/guilty for what the Horde did during this war. I cannot think of any. He follows Saurfang. Saurfang is driven by regret. But Zekhan would have also followed him if Saurfang was just out for Beer and Hookers, because it seems the only moral compass Zekhan has is an old Orc who is now dead.
By the way: This is quite similar to the Suramar Nightborne. They are painted as the good guys who "just want to be free" - but at NO POINT Thalyssra regrets turning her rear on the rest of Azeroth 10k years ago when they could have helped Tyrande & Co fighting the Legion. She also AT NO POINT says that lowering the shield and joining the rest of Azeroth in the current fight (as of Legion) was what she wanted before Gul'dan forced their shield down. Most people simply "assume" Thalyssra is a compassionate, honorable leader - when in fact she would not have given a rat's ass about anything shortly before Gul'dan arrived.

OK, we have seen the ad hominem attacks, appeals to emotion, etc start-up. so I'm out after this...

1)Yes, the "only" thing Sylvanas cited is an actual act of war against Horde. One that is typical of Alliance behavior in the past and can only be expected to occur again. If the Alliance had even sent a letter, indicating that Genn was acting without orders, it might have changed things.

2)And you need to come down off your high horse (and political innuendo). I have to say that _I_ find it disturbing that you are blithely justifingcasting blame on the innocent and guilty alike, and justifying attacks on both. More so than my indicating that those who pay the price for a crime should be those involved, not the innocent. I don't think hypocritical self-righteousness will do much for this debate.

3)As to the question of what you have seen Horde players post, that is a form of the red herring fallacy. Leaving aside issues with your characterization of the Alliance vs. Horde stories, I'm not those other posters. Nor do I support racist revenge by the Horde. For example, Sylvanas sees her, and her people, being rejected and hunted as justification for hating all the living. That is as wrong as Tyrande killing people for mearly being a Horde race. Similarly, if the Tauren killing Alliance for what was done to the Stonespire tribe the Alliance would be wrong.

4) I never said anything about Zekhan. I talked about the cinematic where Thrall and Saurfang go on about how it is all their, and the Hordes, fault and how the Horde legacy is evil.

And yes, the point about Thalyssra not being regretful of their abandoning the rest of the world is indeed something to hold against her. As is the fact that Jains has never even expressed regret for the civilians deaths she cause in Dalaran. (And no, a vague statement "we all have blood on our hands", that probably refers to deaths of the Kul Tirans she just spent a plot arc dealing with, is not it).

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I think you should take a history lesson before coming up with half baked truths. Germany literally got broken up in 4 different sectors (three of them later reunified into the BRD). Lost 1/4 of it's land mass for good.
High ranking officials where condemned and hanged with the Nürnberg trials and 400k people got in denazification camps. Later the BRD convicted 7k and the DDR 14k additional people guilty of crimes like being part of the crew of concentration camps with 6 still in the process today 60 years after the war because info got out after all this time.
And they had to pay a shitload of reparations and are still paying them as of today (mostly Israel) even thou not every nation affected got what they deserved (Sorry Poles and Greek)

Yeah, Germany got help right after the war but they also got broken up, lost every form of independence and only got that back partly at the beginnings of the cold war when they had to face their own as potential enemies.

So, where the hell are the trials for the Horde? Where are the detainment camps to get rid of her ideology? What reparations are paid? What kind of land did they lose? Which foreign power is controlling them right now?

Yeah, your superior attitude could use some trimming. Germany was never intentionally broken up, let alone broken up to punish the German people. The lands the lost were lost make Poland a viable country. Yes, people who took part in Nazi crimes (like Sylvanas and Nathanos are guilty of their crime), but the _people_ of Germans (like the people of the Horde that Tyrande and Genn condemn) were not punished. Which is central to my point about the blanket condemnations of a people after WWI having lead to things like Hitler and the firebombing is Dresden and that the cycle was broken by mostly avoiding such actions.

Horde trials. You want to have trials of whom? We know that Baine and Lorethemar (all that is really left) weren't involved. You probably could run up a dozen or so people that manned the catapults, unless they were Sylvanas' chosen people who went with her.

I mean, turning over people who helped cause Teldrasil (really caused, not are guilty by some vague "the Horde is all guilty meme) for a trial would be moral. But I have to say that the narrative seems clearly that those who planned and executed the burning have all left.

[Xath]

This is exactly the same as how Jaina was in SoO. The warchief becomes a separate entity and even the horde themselves want to kill them, yet some alliance character still thinks they’re not mutually exclusive. Garrosh was dealt with and Sylvannas more then definitely will be as well. Yet somehow horde and alliance relations come into play when they have a common enemy.

This is the second time Blizzard has turned an alliance character into a massive idiot, all for artificial tension.

Yeah because the horde finally realizing they are being led by a nutbag makes up for genociding a race ....

[Eggroll]

I'm confused, people have been whining and complaining about wanting the Night Elves to return to their original, more savage ways, like we saw in CW3 for a long time time.

If there were actual savagery, where are the Horde bodies piling up? I want to see it. Now. Where are the Horde kicked out of nelf territory? Where are the dead Hordes who were executed in punishment of their crimes? They are nowhere and they will be nowhere.

[mickybrighteyes]

If there were actual savagery, where are the Horde bodies piling up? I want to see it. Now. Where are the Horde kicked out of nelf territory? Where are the dead Hordes who were executed in punishment of their crimes? They are nowhere and they will be nowhere.

No one in the lore ever face punishment for their crimes.

Garrosh is basically the only one who's ever been CLOSE to that.