*Spoilers* Tyrande's reaction to end of 4th war

[Eggroll]

Yeah, your superior attitude could use some trimming. Germany was never intentionally broken up, let alone broken up to punish the German people. The lands the lost were lost make Poland a viable country. Yes, people who took part in Nazi crimes (like Sylvanas and Nathanos are guilty of their crime), but the _people_ of Germans (like the people of the Horde that Tyrande and Genn condemn) were not punished. Which is central to my point about the blanket condemnations of a people after WWI having lead to things like Hitler and the firebombing is Dresden and that the cycle was broken by mostly avoiding such actions.

Horde trials. You want to have trials of whom? We know that Baine and Lorethemar (all that is really left) weren't involved. You probably could run up a dozen or so people that manned the catapults, unless they were Sylvanas' chosen people who went with her.

I mean, turning over people who helped cause Teldrasil (really caused, not are guilty by some vague "the Horde is all guilty meme) for a trial would be moral. But I have to say that the narrative seems clearly that those who planned and executed the burning have all left.

1. About the Germany thing: I know my grandfather was imprisoned in Russia as a prisoner of war. They was "denazification" going on, some sort of US-propaganda thing, Germany was occupied for a looong time. We had to pay reparations to several countries. People were tried and executed, but not enough in my opinion.
The real question is: how do you punish an entire country of millions and millions of people?

2. About the Horde trials: There were taurens, blood elves etc. all present in the War of Thorns. There was even a story about Malfurion meeting a blood elf in Ashenvale who clearly stated he hated the nelves for ousting their people 10k years ago. Not to mention Sadfang was the mastermind behind the attack on the nelves, Sylvanas could never have done it without him. Not to mention the Forsaken who are puppets to their waifu. We also don't want to forget the massacre at Brennandan in which you saw Lady Liadrin happily killing healers.

There's plenty the Horde has to stand trial for. Each and every one of them. Switching sides when the deal turns sour doesn't count (looking at you, Lor'themar)

[mickybrighteyes]

There's plenty the Horde has to stand trial for. Each and every one of them. Switching sides when the deal turns sour doesn't count (looking at you, Lor'themar)

by this logic, the alliance should stand trial for their parts in setting the stage for the formation of teh horde...

[Eggroll]

by this logic, the alliance should stand trial for their parts in setting the stage for the formation of teh horde...

Are you talking Medivh?

Btw, wonder what the Alliance's new allies, the Kul'tirans think when they hear the Alliance king has no intention of getting them justice for Brennandan.

[Accendor]

Literally none of the current Horde leadership, with the exception of perhaps Talanji, actively want war. This is the first time the Horde hasn't had a complete, hitler level warmonger among it's leadership - there's no reason to believe this will happen again. Blizzard clearly are done with the faction conflict at this point - they wouldn't have taken the story this way otherwise

Yeah, thats what we were told when Thrall was in charge... and Vol'Jin.
I think its pretty clear that its not working.

[Eggroll]

Watch a fourth Windrunner sister emerge from obscurity and fall in love with a dead-eye Stormwind human called "Nio Kostashazzi."

Hahaha!! Good one!
Go Ono Fuzzikalas, go!

[turboether]

I'm confused, people have been whining and complaining about wanting the Night Elves to return to their original, more savage ways, like we saw in CW3 for a long time time.
They finally did and now people are whining and complaining about that?
Could you kids just make up your mind?

Welcome to the WoW community, enjoy your stay!

[Kyphael]

Hahaha!! Good one!
Go Ono Fuzzikalas, go!

Ono Fuzzikalas? Lol That's his twin brother for a ménage à trois.

[Eggroll]

Ono Fuzzikalas? Lol That's his twin brother for a ménage à trois.

Lol, I missspelled. It's Ono Fuzzikoalas. From a satire about the flying drama in WoD.
https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...o-fuzzikoalas/



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Welcome to the WoW community, enjoy your stay!

No, it's not. Nelf players are still waiting for actual vengeance. The silly mascara scenario won't do.

[mickybrighteyes]

Are you talking Medivh?

More than merely Medivh...

Blood Elves rallied with the horde largely due to treatment at the hands of Garithos and Dalaran before the entire breakdown of what was left of the Seven Kingdoms.
Bilgewater Cartel was subjected their own eminent destruction because SI:7 saw them... and that was it.
Darkspear Trolls nearly wiped out because Proudmoore foudn their island home while hunting to kill Thrall's orcs.
Hell even the tauren got a taste of how fucked up alliance parties can be when dwarves came in desecrating the dead and trespassing because they felt overly entitled.

To sit here and try blanketing the entire horde for the recent fucked up shit that some parties were responsible for is one thing but don't act like only the horde has such a past associated with them.

Even the retconned draenei don't look so great since they were effectively leading teh legion STRAIGHT to the orcs and it turns out that was how orcs were targeted for the original blood curse almost their entire checkered past is blamed on.

Btw, wonder what the Alliance's new allies, the Kul'tirans think when they hear the Alliance king has no intention of getting them justice for Brennandan.

Probably the same thinking the tauren had when Baine proclaimed there would be no justice for Camp Taurajo and banished the tauren that tried defending their land...

[Eggroll]

More than merely Medivh...

Blood Elves rallied with the horde largely due to treatment at the hands of Garithos and Dalaran before the entire breakdown of what was left of the Seven Kingdoms.
Bilgewater Cartel was subjected their own eminent destruction because SI:7 saw them... and that was it.
Darkspear Trolls nearly wiped out because Proudmoore foudn their island home while hunting to kill Thrall's orcs.
Hell even the tauren got a taste of how fucked up alliance parties can be when dwarves came in desecrating the dead and trespassing because they felt overly entitled.

To sit here and try blanketing the entire horde for the recent fucked up shit that some parties were responsible for is one thing but don't act like only the horde has such a past associated with them.

Even the retconned draenei don't look so great since they were effectively leading teh legion STRAIGHT to the orcs and it turns out that was how orcs were targeted for the original blood curse almost their entire checkered past is blamed on.



Probably the same thinking the tauren had when Baine proclaimed there would be no justice for Camp Taurajo and banished the tauren that tried defending their land...

The difference here being that all the things you pointed out about the Alliance happened without player participation. WoT and Brennandan not so much. Lot's of Horde players cheered for the Burning of Teldrassil.

The Taurajo thing was stupid though. Same thing, I agree. Makes no fucking sense.

[therealbowser]

I wonder if the night elves will do anything in 8.3 or more likely this text is the extent of it.

BFA is basically over. More likely, Tyrande will have more to do next expansion and the night elves and possibly worgen will be the main source of hostility in the Alliance towards the Horde. And rightfully so. Sylvanas is going to play a big role next expansion... for better or for worse.

[mickybrighteyes]

The difference here being that all the things you pointed out about the Alliance happened without player participation.

the 'second' dalaran event for blood elves was teh purge which was a player participation event. Likewise Stormheim was as well. Why the player had to kill forsaken sailors in Aszuna is still a mystery to me considering there shoulnd't have been real hostilities between the factions at THAT point in anyway shape or form.

WoT and Brennandan not so much. Lot's of Horde players cheered for the Burning of Teldrassil.

the Brennandan event as I understand, from the alliance pov, is entirely not present in the horde variation so no players took part in that. The later assaults on every zone are another matter.

Now how about that senseless murdering of civilians because the grass color didn't suit a given leader?

[Shiza]

This is sort of like the English attitude that it was OK to kill German babies before they grew up to be to start wars. Such thinking lead to the firebombing of Dresden and other mass killings of civilians.

Are you talking about the Kaufman or Morgenthau plans when you are talking about killing german plans? Because these were the most extreme plans for what to do after an allied victory against germany and neither of them included killing babys and they were actually rather fringe ideas never considered to become actual policy. It's a Nazi dogwhistle that is used to legitimize Germany not capitulating and prolonging the war in europe as well as to present the allies was just as bad as the Axis. The same with the firebombing of Dresden. The commonly quoted numbers of victims are often extravagated, in reality it where at maximum 25k. And the attacks weren't executed to kill germans for the lolz or for vengeance or anything, Dresden was a military target due to its role as an industrial city which supplied the Wehrmacht.

The similarities go further. What let Sylvanas rally people to the cause of war was the unprovoked attacks and killing of civilians that the Alliance has still never even acknowledge. (As was covered in "A Good War"). This is similar to how the punishment of the German people (Kaiser and his people were gone by then) under the treaty of Versailles lead to racism.

Not really. Anti-Semitism was always present in german but also the broader european culture and it is to this day. It is deeply ingrained into the culture, just as militarism was an atmost important part of german culture at this time, due to the heavy prussian influence. We shouldn't forget that Germany voluntarily decided to stand with austria when the austrian heir to the throne was murdered by some fringe serbian seperatist and austria just wanted to invade serbia for it. Germany is not some helpless victim in WWI and when people talk about the treaty of Versailles, they ignore that Germany just a couple of decades earlier inflicted a by far greater humiliation of france after their victory in the franco-prussian war. And to be honest, your attempts to paint germany as a victim during WWII when it was the perpetrator of the worst genocides in history makes your whole argument come off like an alt-right dogwhistle.

Let us not forget, that this was the first and only time Sylvanas suffered an unprovoked attack, by an Alliance Leader whose nation she still occupied despite a truce. Genn as the King of Gilneas can't start any unprovoked attack against Sylvanas when she started a war that she herself never ended.

Especially since Teldrassil as a nation had nothing to do with this attack, it was an attack by Gilneas with the support of Stormwind forces. Her answer was a genocide of the Night Elves.

As we have seen in Europe, revenge, esp. when couple with self-righteousness, is an ugly things. It wasn't until the reconstruction of German in the aftermath of WW II, rather than "revenge", that they cycle was broken.

You know that after WWII, Germany was not a fully souvereign nation up until the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany back in 1990? Only when East and West Germany re-united, Germany became a fully souvereign nation again. This is only 29 years ago. For most of its history, the federal republic of germany, the current german state, was not a souvereign nation. It lost a shit-ton of its territory, perpetrators of the genocide were executed, we had to pay reparations and germany had to go through a hugh cultural shift, the holocaust impacts german identity, culture and politics to this day. For four years after the war, germany as a nation didn't exist, the federal republic and the democratic republic both were only founded in 1949, the current german army, the Bundeswehr, was only funded 10 years after the war, in between germany had no army.

In contrast, in both of its defeats the Horde suffers no negative consequences for its genocidal actions, nobody is punished for his or her crimes, the only ones who are are loyalists, not a single perpetrator of any war crime and in both cases the Horde got to keep any and all conquered territory.

Saurfang, a war criminal who was one of the leaders of both first war, which had the goal of commiting a genocide against humans, dwarves and high elves and of both the night elven and the draenei genocide who openly admitted to have personally slaughtered Draenei children is celeberated as a martyr and symbol of honor. Children inside the Horde learn that Saurfang, the Man who slaughtered frightened little Draenei Children with his own bloody hands and who was one of the core architects of burning alive countless night elf men, women and children, is to be their role model.

At the same time Jaruk Bloodfyre from the Warcraft Manga, an actual orcish hero who tried to help Draenei escape and sacrificed his life fighting the orcish Horde and saving a Draenei Orphan, remains forgotten, with no monument or song honoring the one and only real orcish Hero. The Horde is a disgrace and objectively evil. Tyrande is right in persueing vengeance against them, as long as she only targets soldiers and military personnel, who consciously support a genocidal army.

[Eggroll]

the 'second' dalaran event for blood elves was teh purge which was a player participation event. Likewise Stormheim was as well. Why the player had to kill forsaken sailors in Aszuna is still a mystery to me considering there shoulnd't have been real hostilities between the factions at THAT point in anyway shape or form.

the Brennandan event as I understand, from the alliance pov, is entirely not present in the horde variation so no players took part in that. The later assaults on every zone are another matter.

Now how about that senseless murdering of civilians because the grass color didn't suit a given leader?

You are right about Dalaran and Stormheim, though Stormheim didn't target civilians but fleet which is part of the military. I refused to play my Horde toons this xpac but I read somewhere that Horde players indeed participate in massacres in Kul'tiras. True, Alliance hands are not that clean either, but afaik nothing of the scope of Teldrassil/Theramore etc. was done.

I was getting at your point that all the ones who were responsible for Teldrassil and other grievances in the current war were gone now. Which I think isn't the case.

As a nelf player there is no way I'll ever forget Teldrassil before some proper retribution has been had. And we need a new capital of course.



Just imagine what Tyrande says when she gets wind that the humans are getting cozy with the race that spearheaded Teldrassil...

[mickybrighteyes]

At that point, the Alliance believes that the Horde abandoned them to die at the Broken Shore.

The quest doesn't refer to it as such. We like to refer to this view point but that wasn't universally held. there is no quest giver or turn in point... you just enter the area and see them and first thought is apparently kill them to put them out of their misery.

[Topornic]

This is the same Alliance ending we always get.

"Let's end the Horde before this happens again"
"Let bygones be bygones"
"They will attack us again"
"Maybe not"

*Next attack happens*

lol at this being called the Fourth War, the Horde has attacked several times between now and the Third War.

Third War wasn’t even between humans and orcs so the numeration is not based on who is attacking but rather the scale.

OT: its most certainly not going to lead to a satisfying finale for the night elves so I already started to consider rerolling back to Horde so it might annoy me less.

[mickybrighteyes]

You are right about Dalaran and Stormheim, though Stormheim didn't target civilians but fleet which is part of the military.

Targeting an allied fleet in the middle of an invasion from an even greater threat over an individual's petty revenge while commandeering a nation's military force is the issue. Not that the alliance attacked a military target. Genn was not the commander but still took over the mission. That bit of plot should have had WAY more issues than getting sidelined with largely behind the scenes wrist slap and 'promotion' to regent of the kingdom that is the Seat of Power for what appears to be the greatest military force said promotee literally just abused.

I refused to play my Horde toons this xpac but I read somewhere that Horde players indeed participate in massacres in Kul'tiras.

I reccomend you play through them then, instead of falling back on second hand information.

There are invasions the horde player takes part in, much like there are ones the alliance player takes part in.

True, Alliance hands are not that clean either, but afaik nothing of the scope of Teldrassil/Theramore etc. was done.

Teldrassil holds the top spot cause of scale and how recent it has been...

Now theramore on the other hand... is about even with some events depicted in the orgin stories of the various horde groups. Maybe you're forgetting the callous way in which SI:7 elected to scuttle the entire Bilgewater Cartel in the open sea and proceed to kill them on sight because they crossed paths.

Or maybe you don't recall how Alliance naval forces followed Thrall's fledgling horde across the sea to hunt them to the man... and in the process also decided to attempt to wipe out the dark spear forcing them out of their homeland simply because they were trolls.

I know it's been awhile, but that whole survival of their races angle that forced the horde together... for non-tauren... that threat to the group's survival was mainly the Alliance.

I was getting at your point that all the ones who were responsible for Teldrassil and other grievances in the current war were gone now. Which I think isn't the case.

You have me confused for someone else then.

I was more on about both sides have their dirt and it's foolish to blanket blame everyone. And that seeking justice or demanding it is also foolish cause it's literally never happened before.

Best we got is that Garrosh Story where he just buggered off to anotehr dimension and brought back an army.

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I mean I've been told by the Horde fans here constantly that that quest is not canon anyway.

You're thinking of the Fate of the Queen's Reprisal that is more often discussed. Shipwrecked Sailors has a different objective.

edit:
the two quests are sort of in the same almost forgettable area of the map but you can entirely miss one or the other.

Either way neither is ever referenced again outside their respective bits.

[Akka]

Second time the Horde gets away with razing an Alliance capital with "didn't do nothing, it was all Warchief's fault !".
Well, as long as it works, they would be dumb not using it, right ?

[Ihsan997]

Some people mentioned that the devs could be setting up a “revenge of the night elves and worgen expansion.” Genn isn’t likely to oppose Anduin alone, but Tyrande is (which could then pave the way for Genn and others to follow).

I do kind of miss W3 Tyrande when she was this driven religious fundamentalist living in the woods and ready to massacre entire bases of humans and orcs. Legion damaged her with all that frilly fretting over Malfurion in Val’sharah, so maybe a dose of vengeance will make her into a scary, pointy-eared, pointy-toothed woodland creature again.

(Until the devs decide “she’s crazy” and turn her into a raid boss...)

[LorDC]

Tyrande is just a convenient plot device to justify continued existence of warmode in 9.0 after we get official peace between Horde and Alliance and cross0faction play.