new forsaken leader spoilers

[Highelf]

Gelbin has plenty of foils; Overspark and Obnoticus are probably fellow candidates for High Tinker in previous elections. There is actually a lot of variety in how gnomes are and they do not seek to align with Gelbin's viewpoints.

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"The golden one claims a vacant throne. The crown of light will bring only darkness."

That's the one. what darkness and to whom or what?

[Super Dickmann]

I gotcha. "some value" is an accurate assessment of her journey I suppose albeit a little weak. I just always roled her as a loner, you know, a rogue.

Most recent presidents and people of office have zero to do with us but we elect them anyways, at the very least, because they think they represent the opposite of what they had before. Makes sense, plus they still see her as heir to the throne.

If Calia were treated as a relapse I'd buy it, but the story presents all this with zero irony. They've produced a story about the dangers of blindly following a personality cult, a very poor story, mind, and had the solution to that be that when the object of that cult deserts the population, the population is left hopeless and unable to continue unless they find someone new to worship, specifically a bloodline monarch who is incapable of relating with them on any level.

The part with Delaryn is especially galling since there even being Lordaeronians is absent.

[Highelf]

But why? Didn't Calia come back to life thanks to Anduin aswell? And isn't Derek extremely close to Jaina even as an undead? How can they ever be elected rulers, and how can they ever want to be hostile towards the alliance? I seriously don't get it.

I'm guessing this is part of the faction reshaping that is going to be taking place over the next, however long.

Basically, the horde races directly responsible for genocide get a victim card to play again and the cucklliance accepts their offer again.

[Reinhart11]

The only hope for the character of Calia at this point is, that the force of Death has some nasty surprise waiting for her in the future. Maybe the Light is fine and dandy currently, thinking it has a nice alliance with Death, even creating Light Undead, while Death has some schemes going on in the background, with options of turning these Light Undead to darkness when the moment is right.

[Kumorii]

No, that is wrong. Their identity is what I typed, accept it or not. That's literally what they are at this point and who they've been in the past. You are defined by your actions and the choices you make.

By grow do you mean, doing nothing but the same blighting every day. slaughtering another farm on Tuesday and another town on Friday.

Oh they're still cast out, like I said not even horde npc's in org trust them. They just aren't heartless mindless blighting machines, oh noooo!

Now that Calia is leading them, and she is the only heir to the throne, they can now finally have that home back again but still not be trusted by either side. It's called character progression.

The way I see it, the only thing really missing is the slaughtering and blighting part.

Nice argument. "you're wrong". Look at the history of why forsaken were created and you see I'm right.

I never claimed they are growing or would grow. I'm saying that this change with calia and Derek makes them regress not grow. I never made the claim that they would grow or are growing Im going against tee claim that this leads to growth.

Calia and Derek aren't cast out. That's factually incorrect. So now you have a faction being led by people who only share the characteristics that they are undead and not the same past.

Which is reducing the identity regardless if you think it's better they become more peaceful rather than homicidal.

[Tiwack]

Nothing happens: "boo, story is stagnant"
Something happens: "boo, it'll never be the same"

Can't have it both ways, this is good, this is change in the right direction, it's an ever developing story, judge at your own discretion, it's not the final chapter it's often made out to be.

[Highelf]

If Calia were treated as a relapse I'd buy it, but the story presents all this with zero irony. They've produced a story about the dangers of blindly following a personality cult, a very poor story, mind, and had the solution to that be that when the object of that cult deserts the population, the population is left hopeless and unable to continue unless they find someone new to worship, specifically a bloodline monarch who is incapable of relating with them on any level.

The part with Delaryn is especially galling since there even being Lordaeronians is absent.

The key part of a leader is not relating to them, but leading them, and leading them by example. The weak willed undead blindly followed an elf, i'm sure they can follow someone who reminds them again of who they were/are/can be. At the very least, the same race. A race that once shared memories together before being turned.

[Super Dickmann]

The key part of a leader is not relating to them, but leading them, and leading them by example. The weak willed undead blindly followed an elf, i'm sure they can follow someone who reminds them again of who they were/are/can be. At the very least, the same race. A race that once shared memories together before being turned.

For once I actually agree with you as regards them being weak willed, though I'd say that's a polite understatement. What this does to the Forsaken is an abject joke, especially since Calia needed neither accomplishments, a personality cult or state force to get them to become her groupies without even seeing her.

@Nymrohd

She's at least working directly for the Forsaken state and she states her reason for this is rejection by hte living. Now we know that's a wrong ground to have as the living love the undead, but it's at least in line with Forsaken positions. Before that though, I do think she fits in with the Forsaken in terms of origin story and experience in Cataclysm. What she isn't is an everyman or someone who's ever been too involved in the state. To say her loyalty was always to the Forsaken is a flat out lie.

[Highelf]

Nice argument. "you're wrong". Look at the history of why forsaken were created and you see I'm right.

I never claimed they are growing or would grow. I'm saying that this change with calia and Derek makes them regress not grow. I never made the claim that they would grow or are growing Im going against tee claim that this leads to growth.

Calia and Derek aren't cast out. That's factually incorrect. So now you have a faction being led by people who only share the characteristics that they are undead and not the same past.

Which is reducing the identity regardless if you think it's better they become more peaceful rather than homicidal.

Sorry but that's literally what the forsaken are at this point and what they have been up to this point.

In order for them to grow and move forward, it would take a leader that is the opposite of what they had. Someone who still remembers what it was like to be a human citizen in Loarderon just like them. Have shared memories and might even recognize some of them. Someone who reminds them of who they once were, not the mindless blighting monsters they became because of their scapegoat. It seems like you're wanting to hold on to that genocide and blighting part. They're still cast out, they're still not trusted, they're still very unique. Shame on them being given a leader who actually cares for their interests instead of seeing them as just puppets.

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For once I actually agree with you as regards them being weak willed, though I'd say that's a polite understatement. What this does to the Forsaken is an abject joke, especially since Calia needed neither accomplishments, a personality cult or state force to get them to become her groupies without even seeing her.

@Nymrohd

She's at least working directly for the Forsaken state and she states her reason for this is rejection by hte living. Now we know that's a wrong ground to have as the living love the undead, but it's at least in line with Forsaken positions. Before that though, I do think she fits in with the Forsaken in terms of origin story and experience in Cataclysm. What she isn't is an everyman or someone who's ever been too involved in the state. To say her loyalty was always to the Forsaken is a flat out lie.

But they have seen her, they have memories of her, and once they see her as an undead as well...at least they're blindly following a leader that has their interests at heart instead of their hearts at her interests.

[Syegfryed]

For once I actually agree with you as regards them being weak willed, though I'd say that's a polite understatement. What this does to the Forsaken is an abject joke, especially since Calia needed neither accomplishments, a personality cult or state force to get them to become her groupies without even seeing her.

in blizzard eyes, being a menethil is enough to bright their hearts.

She will give an emotional speak and is done.

things would go so well if she was not this travesty of light undead.

[Super Dickmann]

But they have seen her, they have memories of her, and once they see her as an undead as well...at least they're blindly following a leader that has their interests at heart instead of their hearts at her interests.

She is not undead in the same sense they are. While they were fighting for their survival she was fucking footmen in a cottage. The only reason she 'has their interests at heart' is because a windchime told her to in a dream and Voss called her by phone to invite her to be their absolute ruler.

@Syegfryed

Any Menethil restoration is bad by default. The way it was done here is just the worst way to do it.

[Highelf]

She is not undead in the same sense they are. While they were fighting for their survival she was fucking footmen in a cottage. The only reason she 'has their interests at heart' is because a windchime told her to in a dream and Voss called her by phone to invite her to be their absolute ruler.

@Syegfryed

Any Menethil restoration is bad by default. The way it was done here is just the worst way to do it.

You could argue that those around the forsaken were fighting for THEIR survival. Regardless we all know where having someone relate to their undead animalistic emo depression got them...

[Super Dickmann]

You could argue that those around the forsaken were fighting for THEIR survival. Regardless we all know where having someone relate to their undead animalistic emo depression got them...

I don't need to argue it. They were fighting for their survival. It was a war of extermination on both sides. The living had nothing if not reasons to mistrust the Forsaken and want to get rid of them. That doesn't nullify that this conflict existed and that Calia was not subject to any of it on either side.

[Kumorii]

Sorry but that's literally what the forsaken are at this point and what they have been up to this point.

In order for them to grow and move forward, it would take a leader that is the opposite of what they had. Someone who still remembers what it was like to be a human citizen in Loarderon just like them. Have shared memories and might even recognize some of them. Someone who reminds them of who they once were, not the mindless blighting monsters they became because of their scapegoat. It seems like you're wanting to hold on to that genocide and blighting part. They're still cast out, they're still not trusted, they're still very unique. Shame on them being given a leader who actually cares for their interests instead of seeing them as just puppets.

Why do you act like I'm saying they haven't been violent? I haven't even mentioned something being close to it. I'm telling you why the faction even exists and why it was created. I'm not disputing what they have done.

I'm not saying that making them more peaceful is even wrong. It makes sense to try and make forsaken change in that regard. The fact still remains that the identity and reasons for the faction even existing i still that they are cast out and shunned by previous family members after being turned undead.

Lillian Voss confirms that is still a big part of why forsaken are forsaken with the Thomas Zelling quest line as of two patches ago. You saying that the identity have changed and its not about that is just wrong.
She makes it very obvious that him being reawaken as undead will most likely make his family turn against him and he will be truly forsaken. He takes that risk and its proven right away that it still rings true. His family forsakes him and he is taken into the faction.

You can't say that the identity has changed from that when it's demonstrated to still be a big reason as of why the faction exist.
You entire argument about being peaceful or violent is sort of irrelevant because the faction doesn't exist or is needed for the purpose of being peaceful or violent. The factions existence is there to be a home for those who are forsaken.

I can't make this more clear. You are arguing something that has little to do with my arguments. I agree that they could require a more peaceful leader. Lillian Voss makes sense in that regard.

Two undeads who don't fit the bill of being forsaken in the first place doesn't make sense and kills the identity for the sole purpose of the faction to even exist.

[Vilendor]

Two undeads who don't fit the bill of being forsaken in the first place doesn't make sense and kills the identity for the sole purpose of the faction to even exist.

They turning the forsaken Alliance compatible, so when they make the races playable cross faction in the next expansion there is "lore" behind the reasoning of rotting corpses playing together with gnomes, nightelves, humans etc

[Atticon]

I understand many are disappointed because their idea of "the Forsaken" is being practically killed off, but when you think about it it makes sense.
The "death to the living", Tim Burton evil mad scientist Forsaken path was a dead end, they'd end up leaving the Horde along with Sylvanas and become the enemy of everyone, except that's not possible for player characters because gameplay reasons.

So the path to a "cure" -which is why the Tauren advocated them joining the Horde in the first place- is the only other open to them. A cure, redemption, and connecting back to Lordaeron.

[Verdugo]

They turning the forsaken Alliance compatible, so when they make the races playable cross faction in the next expansion there is "lore" behind the reasoning of rotting corpses playing together with gnomes, nightelves, humans etc

Honestly, just doing jazz hands and saying "Horde and Alliance can now team up, deal with it" wouldnt piss off so many people.

I understand many are disappointed because their idea of "the Forsaken" is being practically killed off, but when you think about it it makes sense.
The "death to the living", Tim Burton evil mad scientist Forsaken path was a dead end, they'd end up leaving the Horde along with Sylvanas and become the enemy of everyone, except that's not possible for player characters because gameplay reasons.

So the path to a "cure" -which is why the Tauren advocated them joining the Horde in the first place- is the only other open to them. A cure, redemption, and connecting back to Lordaeron.

Its only a dead end because those bottom feeders writing this WANT it to be dead end.

[WolfRider]

Excuse me, but I THINK the real threat is NOT N'Zoth, it's that f*cking "Care Bears" situation that is invading a game that lived thanks to conflicts, wars and Fantastic foes.

THE CIRCLE OF HATRED MUST NOT BE BROKEN!

DAMN YOU Varok Saurfang!
May your twisted soul suffer in Helheim!

#Sylvanas4ever
#DieAnduinDie

[Raisei]

Perhaps because she's the opposite of the entire Forsaken identity built up to this point? I'm really not sure what's hard to understand here- perhaps you've never played any Forsaken quests?

Calia is a light priestess leading a race whose main religion is a deliberate inversion of the Church of the Holy Light and who are literally burned by the Light itself.

Uhm you do realize Alonsus Faol the High Priest of the Netherlight Temple is undead too, yes? The Light doesn't seem to have a lot of problems with undeath these days. I think there was some discomfort, but it doesn't seem to be such a big deal for Faol and all the other Forsaken Holy priests.

She is a perfect immortal harmonious being leading a race full of shambling corpses in a state of constant torment whose souls are imperfectly and naturally tacked onto their bodies.

Which is exactly what Sylvanas and Nathanos are. They also didn't sport the decayed look of the other Forsaken out of solidarity. In fact Sylvanas had the power to restore them, like she did with Nathanos but just didn't care enough about the others to perform the necessary rituals. She even apparently used it on Derek Proudmoore so he would look more like Jaina's brother and thus had an easier time killing her. Yup, Sylvanas cared less about you then about her little toy assassin.

She's a pacifist leading a race who make horrific plagues for fun.

I give you this. However BTS has shown that not all Forsaken are basically Scourge with free will and brain power. If this is the kind of character you want to play, a mass murdering psychopath with bio weapons, I am not sure how you ever expected any faction to accept you. The Horde is still mostly populated by LIVING beings, how do you expect them to support your character spewing blight everywhere for fun? Even Garrosh would have killed you for that. It's probably only the mercy of game mechanics that allow this to remain part of any faction.

Her main tenants are forgiveness and love, but the only reason the Forsaken were able to survive at all was their thirst for revenge against those that wronged them.
The whole Forsaken identity is based around (suprise, suprise) being forsaken, but Calia has been universally accepted by everyone she meets. She represents the very powers, both mundane and supernatural, that rejected them in the first place and that they deliberatly defined themselves against.

In short: Calia is a symbol of hope. She demonstrates that the Forsaken do not have to live in blight pools as they have done till now. That is exactly the point of BTS. Anduin and even Genn realize that the Forsaken could be different. It was only Sylvanas who deliberately kept them in the dark and gloomy because people without hope are a lot easier to manipulate then those who actually see something in their future.
She even executed those Forsaken in Arathi who showed signs of hope, because they would "infect" others and thus loosen her hold on the Forsaken as a whole.

So if anything, the Forsaken identity was whatever Sylvanas decided it was. She filled them with hate against the living and actively hindered them from becoming a different people. All in the name of her own power and immortality. She used you. The sooner you actually accept this the sooner you will be able to move on from what she wanted to be your identity to making your own.

Or keep supporting her and we have one psychopathic undead more to kill next expansion. No big deal really.

[Atticon]

Honestly, just doing jazz hands and saying "Horde and Alliance can now team up, deal with it" wouldnt piss off so many people.



Its only a dead end because those bottom feeders writing this WANT it to be dead end.

Okay, so how would you keep evil Forsaken in the Horde indefinitely? By making the Horde an evil faction?
The Horde hasn't/shouldn't have been evil since WC3, and the TRUE shittiest part of the writing has been artificially keeping the faction conflict going by putting dictators in charge of it as Warchief through idiot plots. First Garrosh then Sylvanas.