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  1. #401
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The Horde character was Speaker of the Horde in BfA. Does that mean I was the leader of the Horde this entire expansion without realizing that? No. Voss talking on behalf of the Forsaken because Blizzard forgot other Forsaken exists so they keep resorting to the character that only joined them in BfA doesn't make Voss a leader. She explicitly goes out of her way to procure a leader for the Forsaken in 9.3, which is Calia. In same vein, various Darkspears represented that race in various events like post-Legion feast or what-have-you. But they only get a new leader in 9.3 as well. Because representation does not leadership make.
    "Speaker of the Horde" was a formality among the Zandalari specifically, who actually has a role called "Speaker" within their assembly. In that regard, the Champion did indeed represent and thus "led" the Horde - it doesn't make them Warchief, though, and they were still answerable to the current leader of the Horde. Before they made their affiliation permanent, the Zandalari treated the Horde just like any other Troll tribe, the Speaker of the Horde was at the same level as the Speaker of the Amani or the Speaker of the Gurubashi, or any of the tribes represented at the Terrace of Speakers.

    Representatives *are* leaders, though not always *the* leader. Voss has been one of the more visible Forsaken for some time now, especially as of BfA - she was close to Sylvanas and Nathanos, and thus has the most knowledge of the inner workings of the Forsaken as a society. She makes the most sense as interim leader of the Forsaken in this context (even moreso than Calia, if you ask me).
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "Speaker of the Horde" was a formality among the Zandalari specifically, who actually has a role called "Speaker" within their assembly.
    You remembered me vol'jin saying "I speak for the horde"

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Representatives *are* leaders, though not always *the* leader. Voss has been one of the more visible Forsaken for some time now, especially as of BfA - she was close to Sylvanas and Nathanos, and thus has the most knowledge of the inner workings of the Forsaken as a society. She makes the most sense as interim leader of the Forsaken in this context (even moreso than Calia, if you ask me).
    Representatives *are* representatives. By your metric ambassadors *are* leaders. Which is bogus. And what do you mean especially as of BfA? She hasn't been a Forsaken before BfA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  4. #404
    Pandaren Monk Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    So...... I think this entire script, plus what we know in-game, makes it very clear, that all of the identity of the Forsaken was put on Sylvanas. Remove her and the Forsaken is without any identity or purpose.
    No Shit. Their farewells are "Victory fo Sylvanas" and "Dark Lady watch over you"

    No race has been defined more by their leader than the Forsaken.

  5. #405
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Representatives *are* representatives. By your metric ambassadors *are* leaders. Which is bogus. And what do you mean especially as of BfA? She hasn't been a Forsaken before BfA.
    Because a leadership structure always consists of a single person acting as an autocrat. Even autocrats have keys to power on which they depend in a hierarchical fashion, and whose support props up their regime. Those keys to power are also leaders - whether they be military generals, economic advisers, or what-have-you. I would call an ambassador a leadership type role, yes.

    You also know I disagree with your especially narrow focus on who is or isn't Forsaken, so we'll skip that repeat of an old argument.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Representatives *are* representatives. By your metric ambassadors *are* leaders. Which is bogus. And what do you mean especially as of BfA? She hasn't been a Forsaken before BfA.
    Well, ye, she got rez by Anduin, S'aara and Alonsus covered and graciously touched by the light as an undead. She is not really a truly "undead" as others. Others experienced true suffering and their Resurrection wasn't easy to deal with, none of them had a peaceful touching by the light transition. And if she already struggles even with her transition to undead, what the original ones could say then? She is truly the only that knows a better transition and can give hope to others, others don't know anything about it and how it feels. Honestly over the course of this thread, i have changed my mind, i don't want Calia to be their leader either and i said this before. I think i don't mind her being around and reedeming the name of Menethil family but to be leader, it's a big huge step to go with and blizzard is going to struggle with this story as much as us players on future events. Kind of a dumb decision and i see that now, i was blind with the wanting to get rid of Sylvanas. And here i am typing alot again. I need to go eat and rest!

  7. #407
    Question to crowd: Do you want change?
    Crowd: YEEEEESSS!
    2nd Question to crowd: Do you want to change?
    Crowd is silent…….

    Listen people..... change brings chaos, but it also evolving things.
    It tells a story and it makes history.
    Those that cant follow the evolving itself, will be extinct in the end.

    Of course... everyones opinion is valid and you can dislike a change.
    Anyway, I would like Calia as new queen of the forsaken. A new beginning.

  8. #408
    Even so I do not like Blizzards decision to make Calia the new Forsakens leader, I will cope with it.
    But aside from that, is there any news about a new home for the Forsaken?
    With Calia there, it is a little disapointing, she cannot back to her old castle in Lorderon because of the plague.

    And the Forsaken staying in tents in Orgrimma also is no long time solution. (same for the other stranded races)

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Because a leadership structure always consists of a single person acting as an autocrat.
    Because I totally said that


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Even autocrats have keys to power on which they depend in a hierarchical fashion, and whose support props up their regime. Those keys to power are also leaders - whether they be military generals, economic advisers, or what-have-you.
    We're not talking about leadership in military sense here. We're talking about leadership of the entire faction. But hey, you trying to conflate the two is probably the strongest argument you made so far, so that's some progress here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I would call an ambassador a leadership type role, yes.
    Oh, right, I almost forgot about your loose relationship with words meaning things. Thanks for reminding me that this exchange is utterly pointless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    You also know I disagree with your especially narrow focus on who is or isn't Forsaken, so we'll skip that repeat of an old argument.
    What's there to argue? The very first quest of Forsaken makes it clear one has to join Forsaken to be a Forsaken. Because that's how membership in anything works. In an "especially narrow focus" way. With Voss further telling the Horde player sent on behalf of the Forsaken to leave her be. And then personally told the player she joined the Horde just now, at the start of BfA (and if she was Forsaken before she'd already have been a member of the Horde as well because that's kinda the political affiliation of the Forsaken). Forsaken isn't a be all, end all term for free willed undead. Otherwise the Ebon Blade would be Forsaken too. Which they explicitly are not. There's no argument here. There's only you being deliberately and willfully wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Well, ye, she got rez by Anduin, S'aara and Alonsus covered and graciously touched by the light as an undead. She is not really a truly "undead" as others. Others experienced true suffering and their Resurrection wasn't easy to deal with, none of them had a peaceful touching by the light transition. And if she already struggles even with her transition to undead, what the original ones could say then? She is truly the only that knows a better transition and can give hope to others, others don't know anything about it and how it feels. Honestly over the course of this thread, i have changed my mind, i don't want Calia to be their leader either and i said this before. I think i don't mind her being around and reedeming the name of Menethil family but to be leader, it's a big huge step to go with and blizzard is going to struggle with this story as much as us players on future events. Kind of a dumb decision and i see that now, i was blind with the wanting to get rid of Sylvanas. And here i am typing alot again. I need to go eat and rest!
    We were talking about Voss there...
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2019-10-08 at 06:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Do give a source that an Apothecary expedition tasked by Sylvanas with developing the Blight was ordered by her to kill those Druids. Do you seriously think Sylvanas had to give her go ahead on every single thing the Forsaken have ever done? In that case, have fun explaining Edge of Night where Lydon tried to convince Garrosh to let them use the Blight when Sylvanas wasn't even a part of the campaign in Gilneas yet.
    The blight ordered by Sylvanas to be produced, to use as a weapon against the living and dead? That one? Yeah it had nothing to do with Sylvanas at all. Unless you believe that I'm trying to imply that Forsaken have no free will, I don't really see how this is at all relevant to what I said.

    Of course every single Forsaken has not explicitly asked permission to use blight, that's asinine and pointless to even discuss. Sylvanas however was their literal entire culture, defending her and zealously following her is the identity of the Forsaken.
    Aside form multiple Forsaken that left to Argent Dawn or other factions, at least one of who explicitly stated his dislike of Sylvanas' direction as the reason. Or Stillwater. Or Putress and his Apothecaries. Or the Forsaken that defected to the Kirin Tor in Vanilla. Jesus Christ... And two of those examples are people who went beyond Sylvanas in their actions, meshing really well with what you said in the first paragraph.
    Until now there has never been a sign of a splinter faction or any group dissent within the Forsaken
    Do I really have to spell this out more?

    No shit there have been Forsaken defeactors, christ, Lilian - the main Forsaken representative in BfA - is one. The Forsaken are even allowed to leave the moment they're resurrected. Again you just argue from a stance I never said or implied to begin with.

    I'm saying there is zero division within the current Forsaken as a faction, and this is almost definitely going to create one. The Forsaken, not the undead, are a faction and they were almost completely unified in their following of Sylvanas until the fiasco that was 8.2.5.

    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    I don't mind them developing, but they could have easily done it without inserting Alliance lapdogs into leadership role of a Horde nation.

    In Vanilla there was a quest where it was explained that Forsaken are sinister by 'nature' due the undeath, unable to feel positive emotions. The only joy they had was from inflicting suffering upon others and that Light could make them feel alive before getting overwhelmed by pain soon after. We also know Tauren played a huge role in accepting Forsaken into Horde's ranks because they felt pity and wanted to cure them of their state.

    I would rather prefer that Tauren druids find a cure to certain aspects of undeath. It would make a sense now that Sylvanas forsake them and with Baine in charge, it would actually bond them with Horde even more. If the Tauren could make them feel once again it wouldn't sacrifice their identity raising from history, the world wasn't kind to them when they gained a free will.

    Instead we will probably get an utopian kingdom of all the raised races led by a lightbound opportunist living forever and after in an undead happy dream.
    I would've preferred something like this but since the faction war is clearly going on the backburner I don't feel that bad about it for now.
    I can only figure some Forsaken will be reluctant to give up their way of life and Calia's going to have an uphill battle. Asking undead to fight against their nature is not going to sit well with them, unless she has some fancy light bullshit up her sleeve to magic away bad feelings.

    I feel more like there's potential for good story, not that there will actually be good story. I mean, this is Blizzard.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post


    We were talking about Voss there...
    Ah, i'm sorry, see i'm tired xD can't even proper reading, even less proper answer. Voss as i said, maybe it was you, voss is here since cata, you even go to her and show her how she looks like on the mirror or something, long time i don't do those quests of undead starter zone, but she is like what am i, what is this i'm horrible and shit and then you can see she refuses to be an undead, but with time she gets better, and now in BfA she is even better.

  12. #412
    Christ, they really stuck us up the wrong hole with this, didn't even try to buy us dinner first. Yeah, I'm done with this crap. The more I tell myself I need to wait and see what happens next, maybe it gets better, the worse it gets. One patch and we are already bowing to the Alliance. This has Golden written on it.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Ah, i'm sorry, see i'm tired xD can't even proper reading, even less proper answer. Voss as i said, maybe it was you, voss is here since cata, you even go to her and show her how she looks like on the mirror or something, long time i don't do those quests of undead starter zone, but she is like what am i, what is this i'm horrible and shit and then you can see she refuses to be an undead, but with time she gets better, and now in BfA she is even better.
    But she wasn't a part of the Forsaken. She was Undead, sure, but she wasn't part of the Forsaken faction, didn't want anything to do with them and despised them.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    But she wasn't a part of the Forsaken. She was Undead, sure, but she wasn't part of the Forsaken faction, didn't want anything to do with them and despised them.
    Yes, true.

  15. #415
    Laying the groundwork for finally getting rid of the retarded faction war. I'm all for this.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Ooooh Nooooo, The Forsaken actually get to grow as a faction and have a new identity outside of its tyrannical ruler? The Horror!!

    I don't care if its Voss or Calia, I just want to see the forsaken given a bloody chance to grow outside of the same leader whos been making them follow the same grotesque path since WC3.
    Agreed.

    In 2004 I was really intrigued by the potential for a series to make an undead faction actually interesting. What does it mean to have crossed over death's door and return with all its horrors fresh in your mind? How can being thrown into the jaws of hatred and persecution from ones you was called brothers and sisters OVERNIGHT affect your ability to interact with the world? In comparison to most fantasy series take of undead being "BOOM! Look how I just pwned the *formerly village doctor*... I mean disgusting corpse. I'm such a badass!", the Forsaken had the potential for so much.

    Then we got...
    "hehehe hey (Forsaken Adventurer)... hehe, lets collect some diseased bear guts and make humans sick with it lol. Apparently a small faction of humans think we suck so we should probably prove them wrong by killing literally everything"
    "Hi! I'm the Banshee Queen. I'm going to do jack-all for 6 years and then kill myself."
    "Nevermind I'm back. We're plaguing Gilneas because they're weak, defenseless, and ravaged by disease."

    Cool. Yeah the Forsaken are cool.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    The blight ordered by Sylvanas to be produced, to use as a weapon against the living and dead? That one? Yeah it had nothing to do with Sylvanas at all. Unless you believe that I'm trying to imply that Forsaken have no free will, I don't really see how this is at all relevant to what I said.
    I'm sorry, did I ask about the Blight? No, I asked specifically about the Druids. So how about you answer that instead of moving the goalposts?


    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    No shit there have been Forsaken defeactors, christ, Lilian - the main Forsaken representative in BfA - is one. The Forsaken are even allowed to leave the moment they're resurrected. Again you just argue from a stance I never said or implied to begin with.
    Putress had a group of Apothecaries loyal to him. They kinda performed a coup together with Varimathras (previously also affiliated with the Forsaken) and kicked Sylvanas out of Undercity. So I really cannot fathom how you can still maintain that your claim that until now there has never been a splinter faction of group of dissent within the Forsaken is even remotely correct. The thieves of the bloodstones were also a group. Stillwater also had some people loyal to him from what I recall. Desolate Council opposed Sylvanas on the grounds of immortality for the Forsaken and then multiple members tried to defect to the Alliance because they believed Sylvanas wouldn't let another Gathering happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    I'm saying there is zero division within the current Forsaken as a faction, and this is almost definitely going to create one. The Forsaken, not the undead, are a faction and they were almost completely unified in their following of Sylvanas until the fiasco that was 8.2.5.
    And how is it going to do so? Blizzard doesn't even remember that there are non-Voss Forsaken for the most part, so who's going to take opposition to Calia? And why would Blizzard bother writing that when they are obviously devoted to hamfisting the unification across all Horde races no matter how forced it is? The Forsaken will all fawn over Calia because Horde members even thinking a negative thought about their new Alliance overlords is verbotten.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  18. #418
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    No Shit. Their farewells are "Victory fo Sylvanas" and "Dark Lady watch over you"

    No race has been defined more by their leader than the Forsaken.
    But then the problems come when you remove the leader. Blizzard have planned this for awhile now and yet have not set up opportunities for the Forsaken race or even make enough Forsaken characters ready to have a dilemma about the future.

    Like, they have made it so, that the idea of a totally new character, with close to ZERO interaction with the race, is being set up to be its leader, and yet she is somehow the currently best answer/bet for a leader. Says a lot about how little there work there actually was put in developing the race.

    We don't even have any undead aside from Voss to give us a reaction to Sylvanas leaving, noone to express the sudden loss of purpose.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Ah, i'm sorry, see i'm tired xD can't even proper reading, even less proper answer. Voss as i said, maybe it was you, voss is here since cata, you even go to her and show her how she looks like on the mirror or something, long time i don't do those quests of undead starter zone, but she is like what am i, what is this i'm horrible and shit and then you can see she refuses to be an undead, but with time she gets better, and now in BfA she is even better.
    I know Voss is a character since Cata. The point is that she wasn't a member Forsaken since Cata since she refused to join them back then and instead only joined in BfA, which she personally confirms on the ship in Dazar'alor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  20. #420
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Because I totally said that
    You certainly implied it, but it's good that you're attempting to backtrack, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    We're not talking about leadership in military sense here. We're talking about leadership of the entire faction. But hey, you trying to conflate the two is probably the strongest argument you made so far, so that's some progress here.
    I'm talking about leadership in the general sense - being a leader within a given hierarchy, which is something that takes on many forms. This isn't "conflation," it's acceptance of the notion that ideas, in general, aren't necessarily confined to singular instances. I understand this can be confusing - it's far too easy to complain about meaningless semantics than actually arrive at workable solutions. We could bandy about semantics all day, but actually coming to a conclusion? Well, that would mean the fighting would end, and we can't have that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Oh, right, I almost forgot about your loose relationship with words meaning things. Thanks for reminding me that this exchange is utterly pointless.
    You mean the idea that a nationality or group identity is more than blind loyalty toward a single given leader figure? Sure, you could call that "loose." I call it "functional," but again, this exchange is utterly pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What's there to argue? The very first quest of Forsaken makes it clear one has to join Forsaken to be a Forsaken. Because that's how membership in anything works. In an "especially narrow focus" way. With Voss further telling the Horde player sent on behalf of the Forsaken to leave her be. And then personally told the player she joined the Horde just now, at the start of BfA (and if she was Forsaken before she'd already have been a member of the Horde as well because that's kinda the political affiliation of the Forsaken). Forsaken isn't a be all, end all term for free willed undead. Otherwise the Ebon Blade would be Forsaken too. Which they explicitly are not. There's no argument here. There's only you being deliberately and willfully wrong.
    Ah yes, because a single quest completely and absolutely encapsulates what it is to be Forsaken - that's it. Never mind the entire group of people inducted into being Forsaken at their formation back in WC3, they obviously got grandfathered in through that quest. Never mind the countless Forsaken raised by the Val'kyr afterward, who to my knowledge never went through the Deathknell zone to pick up the quest, they're out too, I guess. Never mind that Sylvanas considered Voss a Forsaken when she raised her in Cata, and was content to wait for Voss to arrive at that knowledge herself, in due time. Now perhaps we can return to the actual subject at hand as opposed to this pointless and irrelevant trip down the memory lane of past debates.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

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