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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Do give a source that an Apothecary expedition tasked by Sylvanas with developing the Blight was ordered by her to kill those Druids. Do you seriously think Sylvanas had to give her go ahead on every single thing the Forsaken have ever done? In that case, have fun explaining Edge of Night where Lydon tried to convince Garrosh to let them use the Blight when Sylvanas wasn't even a part of the campaign in Gilneas yet.
    The blight ordered by Sylvanas to be produced, to use as a weapon against the living and dead? That one? Yeah it had nothing to do with Sylvanas at all. Unless you believe that I'm trying to imply that Forsaken have no free will, I don't really see how this is at all relevant to what I said.

    Of course every single Forsaken has not explicitly asked permission to use blight, that's asinine and pointless to even discuss. Sylvanas however was their literal entire culture, defending her and zealously following her is the identity of the Forsaken.
    Aside form multiple Forsaken that left to Argent Dawn or other factions, at least one of who explicitly stated his dislike of Sylvanas' direction as the reason. Or Stillwater. Or Putress and his Apothecaries. Or the Forsaken that defected to the Kirin Tor in Vanilla. Jesus Christ... And two of those examples are people who went beyond Sylvanas in their actions, meshing really well with what you said in the first paragraph.
    Until now there has never been a sign of a splinter faction or any group dissent within the Forsaken
    Do I really have to spell this out more?

    No shit there have been Forsaken defeactors, christ, Lilian - the main Forsaken representative in BfA - is one. The Forsaken are even allowed to leave the moment they're resurrected. Again you just argue from a stance I never said or implied to begin with.

    I'm saying there is zero division within the current Forsaken as a faction, and this is almost definitely going to create one. The Forsaken, not the undead, are a faction and they were almost completely unified in their following of Sylvanas until the fiasco that was 8.2.5.

    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    I don't mind them developing, but they could have easily done it without inserting Alliance lapdogs into leadership role of a Horde nation.

    In Vanilla there was a quest where it was explained that Forsaken are sinister by 'nature' due the undeath, unable to feel positive emotions. The only joy they had was from inflicting suffering upon others and that Light could make them feel alive before getting overwhelmed by pain soon after. We also know Tauren played a huge role in accepting Forsaken into Horde's ranks because they felt pity and wanted to cure them of their state.

    I would rather prefer that Tauren druids find a cure to certain aspects of undeath. It would make a sense now that Sylvanas forsake them and with Baine in charge, it would actually bond them with Horde even more. If the Tauren could make them feel once again it wouldn't sacrifice their identity raising from history, the world wasn't kind to them when they gained a free will.

    Instead we will probably get an utopian kingdom of all the raised races led by a lightbound opportunist living forever and after in an undead happy dream.
    I would've preferred something like this but since the faction war is clearly going on the backburner I don't feel that bad about it for now.
    I can only figure some Forsaken will be reluctant to give up their way of life and Calia's going to have an uphill battle. Asking undead to fight against their nature is not going to sit well with them, unless she has some fancy light bullshit up her sleeve to magic away bad feelings.

    I feel more like there's potential for good story, not that there will actually be good story. I mean, this is Blizzard.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post


    We were talking about Voss there...
    Ah, i'm sorry, see i'm tired xD can't even proper reading, even less proper answer. Voss as i said, maybe it was you, voss is here since cata, you even go to her and show her how she looks like on the mirror or something, long time i don't do those quests of undead starter zone, but she is like what am i, what is this i'm horrible and shit and then you can see she refuses to be an undead, but with time she gets better, and now in BfA she is even better.

  3. #403
    Christ, they really stuck us up the wrong hole with this, didn't even try to buy us dinner first. Yeah, I'm done with this crap. The more I tell myself I need to wait and see what happens next, maybe it gets better, the worse it gets. One patch and we are already bowing to the Alliance. This has Golden written on it.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Ah, i'm sorry, see i'm tired xD can't even proper reading, even less proper answer. Voss as i said, maybe it was you, voss is here since cata, you even go to her and show her how she looks like on the mirror or something, long time i don't do those quests of undead starter zone, but she is like what am i, what is this i'm horrible and shit and then you can see she refuses to be an undead, but with time she gets better, and now in BfA she is even better.
    But she wasn't a part of the Forsaken. She was Undead, sure, but she wasn't part of the Forsaken faction, didn't want anything to do with them and despised them.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    But she wasn't a part of the Forsaken. She was Undead, sure, but she wasn't part of the Forsaken faction, didn't want anything to do with them and despised them.
    Yes, true.

  6. #406
    Laying the groundwork for finally getting rid of the retarded faction war. I'm all for this.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Ooooh Nooooo, The Forsaken actually get to grow as a faction and have a new identity outside of its tyrannical ruler? The Horror!!

    I don't care if its Voss or Calia, I just want to see the forsaken given a bloody chance to grow outside of the same leader whos been making them follow the same grotesque path since WC3.
    Agreed.

    In 2004 I was really intrigued by the potential for a series to make an undead faction actually interesting. What does it mean to have crossed over death's door and return with all its horrors fresh in your mind? How can being thrown into the jaws of hatred and persecution from ones you was called brothers and sisters OVERNIGHT affect your ability to interact with the world? In comparison to most fantasy series take of undead being "BOOM! Look how I just pwned the *formerly village doctor*... I mean disgusting corpse. I'm such a badass!", the Forsaken had the potential for so much.

    Then we got...
    "hehehe hey (Forsaken Adventurer)... hehe, lets collect some diseased bear guts and make humans sick with it lol. Apparently a small faction of humans think we suck so we should probably prove them wrong by killing literally everything"
    "Hi! I'm the Banshee Queen. I'm going to do jack-all for 6 years and then kill myself."
    "Nevermind I'm back. We're plaguing Gilneas because they're weak, defenseless, and ravaged by disease."

    Cool. Yeah the Forsaken are cool.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    The blight ordered by Sylvanas to be produced, to use as a weapon against the living and dead? That one? Yeah it had nothing to do with Sylvanas at all. Unless you believe that I'm trying to imply that Forsaken have no free will, I don't really see how this is at all relevant to what I said.
    I'm sorry, did I ask about the Blight? No, I asked specifically about the Druids. So how about you answer that instead of moving the goalposts?


    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    No shit there have been Forsaken defeactors, christ, Lilian - the main Forsaken representative in BfA - is one. The Forsaken are even allowed to leave the moment they're resurrected. Again you just argue from a stance I never said or implied to begin with.
    Putress had a group of Apothecaries loyal to him. They kinda performed a coup together with Varimathras (previously also affiliated with the Forsaken) and kicked Sylvanas out of Undercity. So I really cannot fathom how you can still maintain that your claim that until now there has never been a splinter faction of group of dissent within the Forsaken is even remotely correct. The thieves of the bloodstones were also a group. Stillwater also had some people loyal to him from what I recall. Desolate Council opposed Sylvanas on the grounds of immortality for the Forsaken and then multiple members tried to defect to the Alliance because they believed Sylvanas wouldn't let another Gathering happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    I'm saying there is zero division within the current Forsaken as a faction, and this is almost definitely going to create one. The Forsaken, not the undead, are a faction and they were almost completely unified in their following of Sylvanas until the fiasco that was 8.2.5.
    And how is it going to do so? Blizzard doesn't even remember that there are non-Voss Forsaken for the most part, so who's going to take opposition to Calia? And why would Blizzard bother writing that when they are obviously devoted to hamfisting the unification across all Horde races no matter how forced it is? The Forsaken will all fawn over Calia because Horde members even thinking a negative thought about their new Alliance overlords is verbotten.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #409
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    No Shit. Their farewells are "Victory fo Sylvanas" and "Dark Lady watch over you"

    No race has been defined more by their leader than the Forsaken.
    But then the problems come when you remove the leader. Blizzard have planned this for awhile now and yet have not set up opportunities for the Forsaken race or even make enough Forsaken characters ready to have a dilemma about the future.

    Like, they have made it so, that the idea of a totally new character, with close to ZERO interaction with the race, is being set up to be its leader, and yet she is somehow the currently best answer/bet for a leader. Says a lot about how little there work there actually was put in developing the race.

    We don't even have any undead aside from Voss to give us a reaction to Sylvanas leaving, noone to express the sudden loss of purpose.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Ah, i'm sorry, see i'm tired xD can't even proper reading, even less proper answer. Voss as i said, maybe it was you, voss is here since cata, you even go to her and show her how she looks like on the mirror or something, long time i don't do those quests of undead starter zone, but she is like what am i, what is this i'm horrible and shit and then you can see she refuses to be an undead, but with time she gets better, and now in BfA she is even better.
    I know Voss is a character since Cata. The point is that she wasn't a member Forsaken since Cata since she refused to join them back then and instead only joined in BfA, which she personally confirms on the ship in Dazar'alor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  11. #411
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Because I totally said that
    You certainly implied it, but it's good that you're attempting to backtrack, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    We're not talking about leadership in military sense here. We're talking about leadership of the entire faction. But hey, you trying to conflate the two is probably the strongest argument you made so far, so that's some progress here.
    I'm talking about leadership in the general sense - being a leader within a given hierarchy, which is something that takes on many forms. This isn't "conflation," it's acceptance of the notion that ideas, in general, aren't necessarily confined to singular instances. I understand this can be confusing - it's far too easy to complain about meaningless semantics than actually arrive at workable solutions. We could bandy about semantics all day, but actually coming to a conclusion? Well, that would mean the fighting would end, and we can't have that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Oh, right, I almost forgot about your loose relationship with words meaning things. Thanks for reminding me that this exchange is utterly pointless.
    You mean the idea that a nationality or group identity is more than blind loyalty toward a single given leader figure? Sure, you could call that "loose." I call it "functional," but again, this exchange is utterly pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What's there to argue? The very first quest of Forsaken makes it clear one has to join Forsaken to be a Forsaken. Because that's how membership in anything works. In an "especially narrow focus" way. With Voss further telling the Horde player sent on behalf of the Forsaken to leave her be. And then personally told the player she joined the Horde just now, at the start of BfA (and if she was Forsaken before she'd already have been a member of the Horde as well because that's kinda the political affiliation of the Forsaken). Forsaken isn't a be all, end all term for free willed undead. Otherwise the Ebon Blade would be Forsaken too. Which they explicitly are not. There's no argument here. There's only you being deliberately and willfully wrong.
    Ah yes, because a single quest completely and absolutely encapsulates what it is to be Forsaken - that's it. Never mind the entire group of people inducted into being Forsaken at their formation back in WC3, they obviously got grandfathered in through that quest. Never mind the countless Forsaken raised by the Val'kyr afterward, who to my knowledge never went through the Deathknell zone to pick up the quest, they're out too, I guess. Never mind that Sylvanas considered Voss a Forsaken when she raised her in Cata, and was content to wait for Voss to arrive at that knowledge herself, in due time. Now perhaps we can return to the actual subject at hand as opposed to this pointless and irrelevant trip down the memory lane of past debates.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  12. #412
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    To be fair, the Forsaken 'identity' was always built strongly around Sylvanas's cult of personality. Hopefully, even with Calia at the helm, most Forsaken remain more morally-grey like Lillian Voss. Perhaps not necessarily, "experimenting on captive POWs to maximize the results of a highly-virulent plague" levels of obviously-evil, but a racial predilection toward R&D of questionable ethics and spywork/assassination coming naturally to them.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    But then the problems come when you remove the leader. Blizzard have planned this for awhile now and yet have not set up opportunities for the Forsaken race or even make enough Forsaken characters ready to have a dilemma about the future.

    Like, they have made it so, that the idea of a totally new character, with close to ZERO interaction with the race, is being set up to be its leader, and yet she is somehow the currently best answer/bet for a leader. Says a lot about how little there work there actually was put in developing the race.

    We don't even have any undead aside from Voss to give us a reaction to Sylvanas leaving, noone to express the sudden loss of purpose.
    They need to replace voice files with something new like: "Fuck are we to do now?" "Go find Sylvanas" or "I would like to go back to the Lich King now please"

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    To be fair, the Forsaken 'identity' was always built strongly around Sylvanas's cult of personality. Hopefully, even with Calia at the helm, most Forsaken remain more morally-grey like Lillian Voss. Perhaps not necessarily, "experimenting on captive POWs to maximize the results of a highly-virulent plague" levels of obviously-evil, but a racial predilection toward R&D of questionable ethics and spywork/assassination coming naturally to them.
    Hope is certainly one thing that Blizzard does not deserve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  15. #415
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Hope is certainly one thing that Blizzard does not deserve.
    That isn't how hope works in this context.

  16. #416
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Hope is certainly one thing that Blizzard does not deserve.
    Blizzard CAN kill hope.

  17. #417
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    They need to replace voice files with something new like: "Fuck are we to do now?" "Go find Sylvanas" or "I would like to go back to the Lich King now please"
    Hehe xD You know what, i would not mind all of those xD We just need some undead to loudly proclaim "I don't know what to do now!!!"
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I'm sorry, did I ask about the Blight? No, I asked specifically about the Druids. So how about you answer that instead of moving the goalposts?
    I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm telling you it's pretty much irrelevant to the conversation. I was never arguing that the Forsaken didn't sometimes act on their own to inflict harm and kill based on their own personal whims and desires.

    Putress had a group of Apothecaries loyal to him. They kinda performed a coup together with Varimathras (previously also affiliated with the Forsaken) and kicked Sylvanas out of Undercity. So I really cannot fathom how you can still maintain that your claim that until now there has never been a splinter faction of group of dissent within the Forsaken is even remotely correct. The thieves of the bloodstones were also a group. Stillwater also had some people loyal to him from what I recall. Desolate Council opposed Sylvanas on the grounds of immortality for the Forsaken and then multiple members tried to defect to the Alliance because they believed Sylvanas wouldn't let another Gathering happen.
    Yes and I loved both of those incidents, they are probably my favorite Forsaken moments in lore.

    But both groups were wiped out or suppressed at the end of those stories. That's exactly what I'm saying, and why I don't think Calia being the leader is necessarily an immediate bad thing. There's a huge difference between the way she acts, looks and behaves and the rest of the Forsaken, and I feel like that's going to be a story point if they have even a lick of sense.

    And how is it going to do so? Blizzard doesn't even remember that there are non-Voss Forsaken for the most part, so who's going to take opposition to Calia? And why would Blizzard bother writing that when they are obviously devoted to hamfisting the unification across all Horde races no matter how forced it is? The Forsaken will all fawn over Calia because Horde members even thinking a negative thought about their new Alliance overlords is verbotten.
    It's a possibility, sure. But I'm personally reserving judgment for when it actually happens.

    People are knee-jerk reacting negatively to this under the assumption that the Forsaken will just fall in line, but I don't really think that's likely. Most of them were fanatically devoted to Sylvanas, and without her they're confused and purposeless. If there isn't some kind of cultural shift then holy shit are they going to miss a huge mark.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    1. Our leader drank the blood and so did we, but we'll put it all on the scapegoat leader.
    2. Our leader went racist and insane and we backed him and produced a weapon of mass destruction, tested it on innocent students then bombed a city. But it was all HIS idea.
    3. Our leader got her panties in a bunch over the word hope and ordered the burning of a city and our other "leader" followed through with the order. But we just wanted to believe in her, she made us do it.

    The Alliance: Ok we'll just give you a slap on the wrist and tell you, don't do it again or you'll for sure get a timeout next time.
    None of this has anything to do with the thread/question at hand, what's your point?

  20. #420
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    I really hope the more evil sided forsaken stage a coup and kill off Calia. The forsaken all falling in line with Calia would be complete bullshit. An Anduin self-insert has no place in the Forsaken. For the Dark Lady! Blizzard writing Sylvanas out of the forsaken is just Golden fanfiction and didn't happen.

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