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  1. #421
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    No Shit. Their farewells are "Victory fo Sylvanas" and "Dark Lady watch over you"

    No race has been defined more by their leader than the Forsaken.
    But then the problems come when you remove the leader. Blizzard have planned this for awhile now and yet have not set up opportunities for the Forsaken race or even make enough Forsaken characters ready to have a dilemma about the future.

    Like, they have made it so, that the idea of a totally new character, with close to ZERO interaction with the race, is being set up to be its leader, and yet she is somehow the currently best answer/bet for a leader. Says a lot about how little there work there actually was put in developing the race.

    We don't even have any undead aside from Voss to give us a reaction to Sylvanas leaving, noone to express the sudden loss of purpose.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Ah, i'm sorry, see i'm tired xD can't even proper reading, even less proper answer. Voss as i said, maybe it was you, voss is here since cata, you even go to her and show her how she looks like on the mirror or something, long time i don't do those quests of undead starter zone, but she is like what am i, what is this i'm horrible and shit and then you can see she refuses to be an undead, but with time she gets better, and now in BfA she is even better.
    I know Voss is a character since Cata. The point is that she wasn't a member Forsaken since Cata since she refused to join them back then and instead only joined in BfA, which she personally confirms on the ship in Dazar'alor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  3. #423
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Because I totally said that
    You certainly implied it, but it's good that you're attempting to backtrack, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    We're not talking about leadership in military sense here. We're talking about leadership of the entire faction. But hey, you trying to conflate the two is probably the strongest argument you made so far, so that's some progress here.
    I'm talking about leadership in the general sense - being a leader within a given hierarchy, which is something that takes on many forms. This isn't "conflation," it's acceptance of the notion that ideas, in general, aren't necessarily confined to singular instances. I understand this can be confusing - it's far too easy to complain about meaningless semantics than actually arrive at workable solutions. We could bandy about semantics all day, but actually coming to a conclusion? Well, that would mean the fighting would end, and we can't have that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Oh, right, I almost forgot about your loose relationship with words meaning things. Thanks for reminding me that this exchange is utterly pointless.
    You mean the idea that a nationality or group identity is more than blind loyalty toward a single given leader figure? Sure, you could call that "loose." I call it "functional," but again, this exchange is utterly pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What's there to argue? The very first quest of Forsaken makes it clear one has to join Forsaken to be a Forsaken. Because that's how membership in anything works. In an "especially narrow focus" way. With Voss further telling the Horde player sent on behalf of the Forsaken to leave her be. And then personally told the player she joined the Horde just now, at the start of BfA (and if she was Forsaken before she'd already have been a member of the Horde as well because that's kinda the political affiliation of the Forsaken). Forsaken isn't a be all, end all term for free willed undead. Otherwise the Ebon Blade would be Forsaken too. Which they explicitly are not. There's no argument here. There's only you being deliberately and willfully wrong.
    Ah yes, because a single quest completely and absolutely encapsulates what it is to be Forsaken - that's it. Never mind the entire group of people inducted into being Forsaken at their formation back in WC3, they obviously got grandfathered in through that quest. Never mind the countless Forsaken raised by the Val'kyr afterward, who to my knowledge never went through the Deathknell zone to pick up the quest, they're out too, I guess. Never mind that Sylvanas considered Voss a Forsaken when she raised her in Cata, and was content to wait for Voss to arrive at that knowledge herself, in due time. Now perhaps we can return to the actual subject at hand as opposed to this pointless and irrelevant trip down the memory lane of past debates.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  4. #424
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    To be fair, the Forsaken 'identity' was always built strongly around Sylvanas's cult of personality. Hopefully, even with Calia at the helm, most Forsaken remain more morally-grey like Lillian Voss. Perhaps not necessarily, "experimenting on captive POWs to maximize the results of a highly-virulent plague" levels of obviously-evil, but a racial predilection toward R&D of questionable ethics and spywork/assassination coming naturally to them.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  5. #425
    Pandaren Monk Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    But then the problems come when you remove the leader. Blizzard have planned this for awhile now and yet have not set up opportunities for the Forsaken race or even make enough Forsaken characters ready to have a dilemma about the future.

    Like, they have made it so, that the idea of a totally new character, with close to ZERO interaction with the race, is being set up to be its leader, and yet she is somehow the currently best answer/bet for a leader. Says a lot about how little there work there actually was put in developing the race.

    We don't even have any undead aside from Voss to give us a reaction to Sylvanas leaving, noone to express the sudden loss of purpose.
    They need to replace voice files with something new like: "Fuck are we to do now?" "Go find Sylvanas" or "I would like to go back to the Lich King now please"

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    To be fair, the Forsaken 'identity' was always built strongly around Sylvanas's cult of personality. Hopefully, even with Calia at the helm, most Forsaken remain more morally-grey like Lillian Voss. Perhaps not necessarily, "experimenting on captive POWs to maximize the results of a highly-virulent plague" levels of obviously-evil, but a racial predilection toward R&D of questionable ethics and spywork/assassination coming naturally to them.
    Hope is certainly one thing that Blizzard does not deserve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  7. #427
    Banned Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Hope is certainly one thing that Blizzard does not deserve.
    That isn't how hope works in this context.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Hope is certainly one thing that Blizzard does not deserve.
    Blizzard CAN kill hope.

  9. #429
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    They need to replace voice files with something new like: "Fuck are we to do now?" "Go find Sylvanas" or "I would like to go back to the Lich King now please"
    Hehe xD You know what, i would not mind all of those xD We just need some undead to loudly proclaim "I don't know what to do now!!!"
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I'm sorry, did I ask about the Blight? No, I asked specifically about the Druids. So how about you answer that instead of moving the goalposts?
    I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm telling you it's pretty much irrelevant to the conversation. I was never arguing that the Forsaken didn't sometimes act on their own to inflict harm and kill based on their own personal whims and desires.

    Putress had a group of Apothecaries loyal to him. They kinda performed a coup together with Varimathras (previously also affiliated with the Forsaken) and kicked Sylvanas out of Undercity. So I really cannot fathom how you can still maintain that your claim that until now there has never been a splinter faction of group of dissent within the Forsaken is even remotely correct. The thieves of the bloodstones were also a group. Stillwater also had some people loyal to him from what I recall. Desolate Council opposed Sylvanas on the grounds of immortality for the Forsaken and then multiple members tried to defect to the Alliance because they believed Sylvanas wouldn't let another Gathering happen.
    Yes and I loved both of those incidents, they are probably my favorite Forsaken moments in lore.

    But both groups were wiped out or suppressed at the end of those stories. That's exactly what I'm saying, and why I don't think Calia being the leader is necessarily an immediate bad thing. There's a huge difference between the way she acts, looks and behaves and the rest of the Forsaken, and I feel like that's going to be a story point if they have even a lick of sense.

    And how is it going to do so? Blizzard doesn't even remember that there are non-Voss Forsaken for the most part, so who's going to take opposition to Calia? And why would Blizzard bother writing that when they are obviously devoted to hamfisting the unification across all Horde races no matter how forced it is? The Forsaken will all fawn over Calia because Horde members even thinking a negative thought about their new Alliance overlords is verbotten.
    It's a possibility, sure. But I'm personally reserving judgment for when it actually happens.

    People are knee-jerk reacting negatively to this under the assumption that the Forsaken will just fall in line, but I don't really think that's likely. Most of them were fanatically devoted to Sylvanas, and without her they're confused and purposeless. If there isn't some kind of cultural shift then holy shit are they going to miss a huge mark.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    1. Our leader drank the blood and so did we, but we'll put it all on the scapegoat leader.
    2. Our leader went racist and insane and we backed him and produced a weapon of mass destruction, tested it on innocent students then bombed a city. But it was all HIS idea.
    3. Our leader got her panties in a bunch over the word hope and ordered the burning of a city and our other "leader" followed through with the order. But we just wanted to believe in her, she made us do it.

    The Alliance: Ok we'll just give you a slap on the wrist and tell you, don't do it again or you'll for sure get a timeout next time.
    None of this has anything to do with the thread/question at hand, what's your point?

  12. #432
    I really hope the more evil sided forsaken stage a coup and kill off Calia. The forsaken all falling in line with Calia would be complete bullshit. An Anduin self-insert has no place in the Forsaken. For the Dark Lady! Blizzard writing Sylvanas out of the forsaken is just Golden fanfiction and didn't happen.

  13. #433
    The Lightbringer Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Blizzard CAN kill hope.
    Blizzard was Sylvanas all along. At last, I truly see now.
    "I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. "
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    General Jack D. Ripper.


  14. #434
    Bloodsail Admiral Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    None of this has anything to do with the thread/question at hand, what's your point?
    You asked me to elaborate and I did using actual examples. That's the point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Christ, they really stuck us up the wrong hole with this, didn't even try to buy us dinner first. Yeah, I'm done with this crap. The more I tell myself I need to wait and see what happens next, maybe it gets better, the worse it gets. One patch and we are already bowing to the Alliance. This has Golden written on it.
    Now you know what it's like to be a Night Elf for all these years. At least they're giving you a redemption arc after the victim card got played. Night elves got cool dark eyes man...Justice for all.
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
    ― Ronald Regan

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    You asked me to elaborate and I did using actual examples. That's the point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Now you know what it's like to be a Night Elf for all these years. At least they're giving you a redemption arc after the victim card got played. Night elves got cool dark eyes man...Justice for all.
    No, all that crap you said has nothing to do with the Forsaken leader or my post. It's irrelevant.

  16. #436
    The Lightbringer therealstegblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Because a leadership structure always consists of a single person acting as an autocrat. Even autocrats have keys to power on which they depend in a hierarchical fashion, and whose support props up their regime. Those keys to power are also leaders - whether they be military generals, economic advisers, or what-have-you. I would call an ambassador a leadership type role, yes.

    You also know I disagree with your especially narrow focus on who is or isn't Forsaken, so we'll skip that repeat of an old argument.
    I also watched CGPGrey's video.

    Anyways, ambassadors aren't leaders. At all. Unless they're also instituted with some other power of leadership, then they're literally just a representative of another power body that is simply relaying messages between leaders and representing their side in political situations. Ambassadors can be given certain extents of power over their position, as in they're able to make decisions of their own, but they're not leaders by default.

    Some make-believe "Speaker of the Horde" may be a position of leadership, but I don't care either way about that.
    i am not the real stegblob. My blog where I review books and crap.

  17. #437
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    I also watched CGPGrey's video.
    I was actually referring to Selectorate Theory, which CGP Grey's video is all about. It's covered a lot more in depth in "The Dictator's Handbook," which sits in a place of honor on my desk.

    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Anyways, ambassadors aren't leaders. At all. Unless they're also instituted with some other power of leadership, then they're literally just a representative of another power body that is simply relaying messages between leaders and representing their side in political situations. Ambassadors can be given certain extents of power over their position, as in they're able to make decisions of their own, but they're not leaders by default.

    Some make-believe "Speaker of the Horde" may be a position of leadership, but I don't care either way about that.
    There's no such thing as a "leader by default," leadership is a trait or quality possessed by individuals - a role is not itself invested with axiomatic power. A leader derives authority from their ability to inspire or command - if they lose that power, then they lose their authority regardless of what their title is. Leadership is performative, not inherent. An ambassador is a leader if they lead to some degree, which is true for many of the ambassadorial roles in the Warcraft universe. Voss is one of these.

    The Speaker of the Horde, specifically, is invested by the Zandalari to represent the Horde and they do so by performing various heroics for the Zandalari in the name of the Horde - leading the struggles against the Zanchuli coup in Zuldazar, the Blood Troll threat in Nazmir, and countering General Jakra'zet and his Sethrak allies in Vol'dun. In this context, the Champion performs necessary leadership in the name of the Horde, and they're rewarded with a deeper affiliation between the Zandalari and the Horde that they represent.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2019-10-08 at 08:05 PM.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  18. #438
    Gucci Lady is gonna bring some class back to Lordaeron.

    Love it.
    I don't mind if you call me or another Trump supporter racist/fascist...

    but please stop wearing a wig, dress and your mom's panties
    and throttle your soy consumption

  19. #439
    Bloodsail Admiral Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    No, all that crap you said has nothing to do with the Forsaken leader or my post. It's irrelevant.
    Then don't ask someone to elaborate then, when they do, tell them it's crap lol. Your post was in response to me saying that the victim card has been played again. You set this in motion. Ride the snake and see it through lol.
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
    ― Ronald Regan

  20. #440
    The Lightbringer therealstegblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I was actually referring to Selectorate Theory, which CGP Grey's video is all about. It's covered a lot more in depth in "The Dictator's Handbook," which sits in a place of honor on my desk.
    Lol.

    There's no such thing as a "leader by default," leadership is a trait or quality possessed by individuals - a role is not itself invested with axiomatic power. A leader derives authority from their ability to inspire or command - if they lose that power, then they lose their authority regardless of what their title is. Leadership is performative, not inherent. An ambassador is a leader if they lead to some degree, which is true for many of the ambassadorial roles in the Warcraft universe. Voss is one of these.

    The Speaker of the Horde, specifically, is invested by the Zandalari to represent the Horde and they do so by performing various heroics for the Zandalari in the name of the Horde - leading the struggles against the Zanchuli coup in Zuldazar, the Blood Troll threat in Nazmir, and countering General Jakra'zet and his Sethrak allies in Vol'dun. In this context, the Champion performs necessary leadership in the name of the Horde, and they're rewarded with a deeper affiliation between the Zandalari and the Horde that they represent.
    I didn't say there was any such thing as a "leader by default".

    Fuck, you are just so exhausting it's unreal. I think they made a South Park episode about people like you, in fact. Something about farts...
    i am not the real stegblob. My blog where I review books and crap.

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