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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    Then don't ask someone to elaborate then, when they do, tell them it's crap lol. Your post was in response to me saying that the victim card has been played again. You set this in motion. Ride the snake and see it through lol.
    Are you purposely being obtuse or ???

    My initial response has zero to do with victim cards. Which means your response is nonsensical and irrelevant.

  2. #442
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    I didn't say there was any such thing as a "leader by default".

    Fuck, you are just so exhausting it's unreal. I think they made a South Park episode about people like you, in fact. Something about farts...
    Is that some form of concession? "I can't come up with a cogent rebuttal, so I'm going to prattle on about farts now." Mentioning that someone "isn't a leader by default" (which is what you literally said above) implies that such a thing can exist, a concept which I detailed doesn't exist and so doesn't have an opposite to speak of.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  3. #443
    The Lightbringer therealstegblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Is that some form of concession? "I can't come up with a cogent rebuttal, so I'm going to prattle on about farts now."
    Yes, Aucald. That's exactly it.

    Mentioning that someone "isn't a leader by default" (which is what you literally said above) implies that such a thing can exist, a concept which I detailed doesn't exist and so doesn't have an opposite to speak of.
    I did not at all say anything even close to the implication that there are leaders by default. All I said was an ambassador was not a leader by default. You're fucking wrong; and I know this absolutely shocks your pretentious online ego to its very core (I can see your shitty Neil Gaiman signature quote practically quivering in its boots!), but you need to be a big boy green name and deal with it.

    You made an argument that ambassadors are leaders, and you seemed to suggest that they were leaders based on IRL ambassadors (which you claimed were akin to a type of 'leader' in their own right, which they are not). You were wrong about the initial point of the argument and you're wrong in this ridiculous sub-argument you've tried to make to distract your fragile ego from the fact you said something that was fucking stupid.

    Get over it.
    i am not the real stegblob. My blog where I review books and crap.

  4. #444
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    I did not at all say anything even close to the implication that there are leaders by default. All I said was an ambassador was not a leader by default. You're fucking wrong; and I know this absolutely shocks your pretentious online ego to its very core (I can see your shitty Neil Gaiman signature quote practically quivering in its boots!), but you need to be a big boy green name and deal with it.

    You made an argument that ambassadors are leaders, and you seemed to suggest that they were leaders based on IRL ambassadors (which you claimed were akin to a type of 'leader' in their own right, which they are not). You were wrong about the initial point of the argument and you're wrong in this ridiculous sub-argument you've tried to make to distract your fragile ego from the fact you said something that was fucking stupid.

    Get over it.
    So you attempted to clarify your original position by repeating it? Okay, that's a novel tactic, and I would still say you're wrong. You needing to attack my ego needlessly makes me think you're even more wrong than before, and now aware of being wrong, but unable to really extricate yourself from it gracefully. In any case, let's agree to disagree and we can both go away thinking we've "won."

    By the by, someone disagreeing with you doesn't make them or their point "fucking stupid" - and I don't think what you said was stupid, I just think you're wrong in the normal, boring way, without the unnecessary rancor. You can disagree with people without resorting to attempts to belittle them.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Calia can minister to those Forsaken who seek a way out of the hatred and inward-violence that have defined the Forsaken up to this point, those who feel as the Desolate Council once did and have been cowed from further dissent due to what happened to them. Voss can represent and likely moderate the more practical element of her people, like Belmont, who seem to embrace undeath as a state of being and not a transitory condition. Hopefully, with sufficient time the Forsaken can find themselves in a more balanced footing and can actually join the Horde in earnest, something they've yet to really do on any significant level due to holding themselves apart for so long.
    I get where you're going with this, but I still find that Calia as a whole is just a downside to the entire process. If Sylvanas was aloof from the Forsaken because she had a public face and a private contempt, then Calia is just entirely removed from the Forsaken experience. She's condescending without even meaning to be and even when the writing doesn't seem to intend it, like greeting Voss and praising the father who raised her to be an instrument of war and then nearly killed her. Everything is easy to her. I can buy that some Forsaken would be drawn to this perfection and escapism, and in that regard you can have a story with Calia, but the fact that Voss purposefully seeks her out instead of taking up a guiding role herself and that the lesson the Forsaken take is that blindly following a leader is wrong so they better blindly follow a different leader, this time one that doesn't do shit is just anathema - not just to what the Forsaken ahve been for fifteen years, that goes without saying, but beyond that it goes against what they were meant to learn in their BFA incarnation.

    Voss herself is a far better representative of this bridge or, if we really must, Derek, simply because they have a frame of reference that Calia doesn't. Calia is an idealized figure, an idol more than a person. On the other side to Voss wishing to reconnect with humanity and gripped with regret, you could have Belmont or better yet, Lydon what with him being the designated successor before, possibly with a council of three going, who's reaction is less "What do we do now without Sylvanas" but "How do we make Sylvanas pay and not have this moment of weakness be exploited". The Calia story as it is is simply too easy, too far removed from any incarnation of the Forsaken and just altogether condescending. If I didn't know better, I'd say @ChairmanKaga was right and it was deliberately made to annoy, akin to the previous "Light fixes everything" copout with Illidan where that ended up being the intended audience reaction.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I get where you're going with this, but I still find that Calia as a whole is just a downside to the entire process. If Sylvanas was aloof from the Forsaken because she had a public face and a private contempt, then Calia is just entirely removed from the Forsaken experience. She's condescending without even meaning to be and even when the writing doesn't seem to intend it, like greeting Voss and praising the father who raised her to be an instrument of war and then nearly killed her. Everything is easy to her. I can buy that some Forsaken would be drawn to this perfection and escapism, and in that regard you can have a story with Calia, but the fact that Voss purposefully seeks her out instead of taking up a guiding role herself and that the lesson the Forsaken take is that blindly following a leader is wrong so they better blindly follow a different leader, this time one that doesn't do shit is just anathema - not just to what the Forsaken ahve been for fifteen years, that goes without saying, but beyond that it goes against what they were meant to learn in their BFA incarnation.

    Voss herself is a far better representative of this bridge or, if we really must, Derek, simply because they have a frame of reference that Calia doesn't. Calia is an idealized figure, an idol more than a person. On the other side to Voss wishing to reconnect with humanity and gripped with regret, you could have Belmont or better yet, Lydon what with him being the designated successor before, possibly with a council of three going, who's reaction is less "What do we do now without Sylvanas" but "How do we make Sylvanas pay and not have this moment of weakness be exploited". The Calia story as it is is simply too easy, too far removed from any incarnation of the Forsaken and just altogether condescending. If I didn't know better, I'd say @ChairmanKaga was right and it was deliberately made to annoy, akin to the previous "Light fixes everything" copout with Illidan where that ended up being the intended audience reaction.
    Yeh its funny how she praises Voss' father when her father tried to kill her.. Like how clueless is she? The Scarlet crusade spent years going after the forsaken and I bet Calia would lead the Scarlet Crusade if given the chance. In fact.. that would have been a WAY cooler story path. Have Calia lead the scarlet crusade and have a Menethil try to forsake Lordaeron again!
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2019-10-08 at 09:10 PM.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Yeh its funny how she praises Voss' father when her father tried to kill her.. Like how clueless is she? The Scarlet crusade spent years going after the forsaken and I bet Calia would lead the Scarlet Crusade if given the chance. In fact.. that would have been a WAY cooler story path. Have Calia lead the scarlet crusade and have a Menethil try to forsake Lordaeron again!
    When Calia was still alive and listened to Voss's sermon, there was no Scarlet Crusade and she doesn't know that her father tried to kill her. I'm not even sure, she'd know about the crusade, at least not much, she only spent time with Faol and he sure never showed up anywhere before Legion ^^

  8. #448
    Calia being a spiritual leader to help the Forsaken cope with their existence? Sure, fine.

    Calia as a political leader? That's where I raise an eyebrow.

  9. #449
    just find all of this so funny. We alliance have been delt this crap for several expansions now. It happens to the horde and they go crybaby. Hell they get 2 leaders in the forsaken , 1 with a new model. With a history and lore behind them. .....what did you guys say to us all this time....quit complaining.
    BFA - Barf for Alliance
    Horde you sad or angry that your faction is a bunch of mass murdering, cowards , without honor bad guys??
    The alliance is there for you

  10. #450
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I get where you're going with this, but I still find that Calia as a whole is just a downside to the entire process. If Sylvanas was aloof from the Forsaken because she had a public face and a private contempt, then Calia is just entirely removed from the Forsaken experience. She's condescending without even meaning to be and even when the writing doesn't seem to intend it, like greeting Voss and praising the father who raised her to be an instrument of war and then nearly killed her. Everything is easy to her. I can buy that some Forsaken would be drawn to this perfection and escapism, and in that regard you can have a story with Calia, but the fact that Voss purposefully seeks her out instead of taking up a guiding role herself and that the lesson the Forsaken take is that blindly following a leader is wrong so they better blindly follow a different leader, this time one that doesn't do shit is just anathema - not just to what the Forsaken ahve been for fifteen years, that goes without saying, but beyond that it goes against what they were meant to learn in their BFA incarnation.
    I think that's being a bit too hard on Calia specifically as she has no idea what Voss' more recent history is as concerns her family, and probably most of the Forsaken don't either. I also doubt Voss took this as condescension from Calia, either; her father was probably once a good person himself - before the Third War and Balnazzar's effect on the Scarlet Crusade as a whole. But speaking to that, I can see many ways in which Calia's separation from the Forsaken is actually a good thing, she isn't mired in their traditional ways of thinking and represents an alternative position and outcome, to a degree. Outside observers bring in new perspectives, and the Forsaken specifically are kind of in dire need of new perspectives given their current plight. My main issue is that I don't think Calia personally is really leader material - she would be much better in a support or supplementary role to a more pragmatic or moderate leader (like Voss herself). That's why I could see Voss and Calia in a more shared role, with Calia as a spiritual leader to the Forsaken whereas Voss is the temporal leader - contrasted to Sylvanas who basically represented both aspects in a manner such that they mirrored one another. Derek might also serve in that role as opposed to Voss, but there I would think Derek's outsider status would be a deeper detriment than Calia's outsider status would be in a more ministerial role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Voss herself is a far better representative of this bridge or, if we really must, Derek, simply because they have a frame of reference that Calia doesn't. Calia is an idealized figure, an idol more than a person. On the other side to Voss wishing to reconnect with humanity and gripped with regret, you could have Belmont or better yet, Lydon what with him being the designated successor before, possibly with a council of three going, who's reaction is less "What do we do now without Sylvanas" but "How do we make Sylvanas pay and not have this moment of weakness be exploited". The Calia story as it is is simply too easy, too far removed from any incarnation of the Forsaken and just altogether condescending. If I didn't know better, I'd say @ChairmanKaga was right and it was deliberately made to annoy, akin to the previous "Light fixes everything" copout with Illidan where that ended up being the intended audience reaction.
    For a temporal leader, yes, I would agree - as mentioned above. Belmont is probably a bit too hard-line for the role, though I could see Lydon working out (depending on his reaction to Sylvanas' departure). The Forsaken kind of need a new spiritual leader with the loss of Sylvanas, and Calia I think would be a largely more beneficent one, one more in keeping with the general spiritual ethos of the Horde as well. If Calia ascends to the leadership of the Forsaken without some kind of light "council" element added to the role I'd chalk it up to an error on the part on the writers as well - I think she needs the touch of a character like Voss or Lydon to succeed in the role regardless of whether she becomes "Queen of the Forsaken" or just becomes their spiritual leader of some kind. Derek isn't going to work as a temporal leader of the Forsaken himself, and he's both too new and too distant from the old guard Forsaken to successfully serve in the same role Voss or Lydon would.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  11. #451
    the new forsaken flag has to be a new version of the old lordaeron!

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the new forsaken flag has to be a new version of the old lordaeron!
    Lightforged style?

  13. #453
    Bloodsail Admiral Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Are you purposely being obtuse or ???

    My initial response has zero to do with victim cards. Which means your response is nonsensical and irrelevant.
    Oh wow I wasn't aware you're this dense. Sorry, I will move on now thanks. Don't think too hard about simple things in the future.

    Infracted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    just find all of this so funny. We alliance have been delt this crap for several expansions now. It happens to the horde and they go crybaby. Hell they get 2 leaders in the forsaken , 1 with a new model. With a history and lore behind them. .....what did you guys say to us all this time....quit complaining.
    So much this. They were making memes and everything about teldrassil. But when someone happens to them they cry and whine. We got dark eyes though as night elves....
    Last edited by Aucald; 2019-10-09 at 01:32 AM. Reason: Received Infraction
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
    ― Ronald Regan

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Deferionus View Post
    Her connection predates World of Warcraft when the Menethil crown ruled Lordaeron. She is the rightful heir. The forsaken are the same people her family ruled over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    "Zero connection" you guys can just not vomit stuff out of the blue? The forsaken only exist because of her brother, the forsaken started existing because of her brother, the forsaken is people from Lordaeron, humans, it's their right always, Sylvanas just was there by visit because she wanted to avenge herself and the forsaken from the scourge. Calia has no shit to do with what her brother did and still her identity even after death can't go unknown. I wanted this story and i barely can't actually believe it's really here. I was the first person here saying she is rightful Queen of Lordaeron if someday Sylvanas would stop being a forsaken leader because SHE WAS DOING so much stuff that doesn't concern the forsaken's interests and she was actually being a Lich King 2.0 and commiting genocides and she even says in the end "The horde is nothing" SHE made her OWN BED. She knew what she was saying after. She even says she only sympathized with forsaken but she has other plans. -
    You can't either trust much LilianVoss she doesn't want to be a leader, it's not her damn type, Calia is the fitting. Her or Deathstalker Commander Belmont. No one seems to remember him. Now it's female leaders everywhere.
    I know who she is, but she has had nothing to do with forsaken. Her family ruled prior to the collapse created by the scourage that can be laid at the feet of her brother (who the forsaken just adore). Since then she has not been part of the story of the forsaken at all. Who she was before death is irrelevant.

    Could Calia have been fitting? Yes, she could, if she had been part of the story prior to the legion Priest order hall. Also, her status as a "light" undead is the opposite of the forsaken. Hell, the Alliance seem to completely support her. She hasn't been shunned or hated for being what she is, unlike the real forsaken. Even if Blizz addressed all these problems in a book, she would still be separated from most forsaken players.

    Voss is better in that every undead who has quested knows her story. She was also involved in the horde rogue order hall and for every horde member in the war campaign.

    I think blizz is going to start mix and matching races regardless of faction (not an idea I support). In this scenario, alliance forsaken would be lead by Calia and horde forsaken by Voss. Both has been set up in recent times by helping forsaken transition into undeath.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelinrah View Post
    RIP Forsaken. Enjoy being humans with a skin condition.
    Well they are humans with condition. Being dead.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Nope you just want to retcon them so your snowflake character loyal good can become Canon. You are destroying their own nature to make them as bland as anduin green human, anduin blue human, anduin long ears human, anduin human human.
    The same pile of shit everywhere. No nuance at all. No race characteristics. No personnality. No history. Just 8 yo fantasy book loving characters. Development means not denying their whole nature. It means evolving according to it.
    Forsaken were not creature who felt love or had any cares for the livings. They should evolve according to that. Not do a full 180 and go in the arms of that calia/derek bullshit.
    Except I don't play a forsaken, as I never found them being stupid victims used by the bitch queen a compelling race to play. Furthermore, you act as if them having Calia as their racial leader has already happened, and you know the outcome of it, where you believe that all undead will go happy go lucky, hold hands, and dance in circles around Calia. Not my fault you are insecure, and if you don't like the story, perhaps it's time to quit, or play classic, where you can embrace being a victim that is enslaved, and lied to about being free by your precious Sylvanas.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    Except I don't play a forsaken, as I never found them being stupid victims used by the bitch queen a compelling race to play. Furthermore, you act as if them having Calia as their racial leader has already happened, and you know the outcome of it, where you believe that all undead will go happy go lucky, hold hands, and dance in circles around Calia. Not my fault you are insecure, and if you don't like the story, perhaps it's time to quit, or play classic, where you can embrace being a victim that is enslaved, and lied to about being free by your precious Sylvanas.
    If forsaken are victims of something it's of the writers. Like every other races and characters in wow. But it's more recent. So yeah because of their nature I had still hope no retard would make them as bland as the rest and write love stories bad fanfic level. But I guess Goldshire inn rpq as won. Good job!
    The problem is more, you. Liking the story, is a real problem. You are dragging the game lower and lower.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Voss herself is a far better representative of this bridge or, if we really must, Derek, simply because they have a frame of reference that Calia doesn't. Calia is an idealized figure, an idol more than a person. On the other side to Voss wishing to reconnect with humanity and gripped with regret, you could have Belmont or better yet, Lydon what with him being the designated successor before, possibly with a council of three going, who's reaction is less "What do we do now without Sylvanas" but "How do we make Sylvanas pay and not have this moment of weakness be exploited". The Calia story as it is is simply too easy, too far removed from any incarnation of the Forsaken and just altogether condescending. If I didn't know better, I'd say @ChairmanKaga was right and it was deliberately made to annoy, akin to the previous "Light fixes everything" copout with Illidan where that ended up being the intended audience reaction.
    Can I ask why Belmont or Lydon? Why a Deathstalker instead of a Deathguard and why Lydon instead of Faranell?

    Another concern with Calia as Forsaken leader is that if we have an expansion about Sylvanas it is very likely that we will see Calia be the opposing force and not the Forsaken as a people. Calia has her own story arc that is clearly separate than the arc of the Forsaken so placing her at the front would do much the same that having Sylvanas did; place the leader's story in front and leave the race behind.

    Plus Calia very likely will have a villain arc. She is a perfect fit for Il'gynoth's new prophecy, she is a perfect fit for the Light working with the enemy of all. Do we really want to give the Forsaken ANOTHER leader who drags the race with them in villain territory?
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Can I ask why Belmont or Lydon? Why a Deathstalker instead of a Deathguard and why Lydon instead of Faranell?
    Belmont was in a prior commanding position and he's actually appeared lately on top of being just a fun character rather than a busybody. The game badly needs to be reminded that past all the doom and gloom, the Forsaken had a lot of black humor going on and a lot were having the time of their lives. The cheesy "steal those horses and gas them under this specific horse-gassing valve that I of course installed into my machine, why wouldn't I?" vibe is gone for all of BFA to be replaced by a bunch of sadsacks crowing how woe is them.

    Lydon was the designated successor in Edge of Night, but also unassertive outside his field and unable to stand up to Garrosh, hence requiring Belmont and an Executor, preferably Wroth or Anselm given their respective characterization, to take part in that role. Wroth is far more hardline, but he's also a no-nonsense dude, Anselm is a bit aspirational with the whole "As Forsaken we are our own guys" painfully ironic as it now is. The reason I single out Lydon and Belmont is that they're ones that people outside the Forsaken fandom would recognize and that, at least with Belmont, Blizzard remembers. It often feels like in bizarro world where people tell us how no Forsaken characters except Sylvanas or now Voss exist, yet at the same time champion races which consist of two guys (orcs) or one guy (Baine) and are just as much of a monolith in their intended form.

    As for Calia, she's already put into things she has no connection to, see somehow being able to inspire Delaryn with which she legit has absolutely nothing in common with or the Dark Rangers, who apparently didn't leave with Sylvanas (?). I would take the Il'gynoth thing with a grain of salt, much as I would the N'zoth whisper to that effect. Think of how Anduin's three lies ended up. Out of story, they didn't create this perfect holy woman and remove every Forsaken character from the plot either by having them become neutral baddies or just not show up to get rid of her. In story, the void assumes base motives of the Light that aren't actually there.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It often feels like in bizarro world where people tell us how no Forsaken characters except Sylvanas or now Voss exist, yet at the same time champion races which consist of two guys (orcs) or one guy (Baine) and are just as much of a monolith in their intended form.
    The tauren and orcs have just as many minor characters that had their own fun quests and development in Classic and Cata as the Forsaken do.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

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