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  1. #461
    God forbid the forsaken get some new lore and move forward.
    We dont know anything about how this will play out, cant we just see what happens before we critique the story?

    I dont understand why everyone glorify the storytelling back in the days of Warcraft and such, it was full of cliches and such as well

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    just find all of this so funny. We alliance have been delt this crap for several expansions now. It happens to the horde and they go crybaby. Hell they get 2 leaders in the forsaken , 1 with a new model. With a history and lore behind them. .....what did you guys say to us all this time....quit complaining.
    How would you like it if the draenai got Saurfang as their racial leader? She is clearly an alliance character that is friends with Anduin and knows absolutely nothing about the forsaken. She was never part of the Horde. She can go fucking kill herself.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2019-10-09 at 07:34 AM.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Mermeoth View Post
    Yeah, Calia is not even part of faction and suddenly she is to become leader of the Forsaken?
    I don't like it at all. There should be some build up. Just because she was princess of Lordaeron doesn't make it right.
    It'd be more fun if they really went the route of Calia being Alliance's proxy installed after Horde's capitulation.

    Even though she'd get to the position forcefully this way, maybe the sheer difference between her approach and Sylvanas' would eventually win some Forsaken over despite her lacking any solid connection to Forsaken.

    Don't get me wrong, ideally, I'd have thrown her to the Scarlet Crusade, but if she really has to rule the Forsaken, they could've at least made it in a way that makes sense.
    Last edited by Dagoth Ur; 2019-10-09 at 07:43 AM.

  4. #464
    High Overlord Godric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz98 View Post
    Well .. for those of you clamoring that there was no precedent for this to occur:
    Remember that book where the Forsaken try to defect to Calia because she was Calia Menethil heir to the Kingdom of Lorderon?
    Raz remembers
    Remember when Sylvanas in a fit of jealousy killed all the Forsaken present and Calia because they were going to leave her to follow the Heir to the Kingdom of Lorderon instead of a random elf that basically uses them as rotting meat shields?
    Raz remembers

    Lets not pretend that this is out of left field. This has been a speculation since Legion
    This has been speculated since that book where all this happened
    We ... didnt all know what Sylvanas was going to do, but the new undead model humans cropping up and Calia returning to the game with a shiny new model made this fairly obvious.

    I think we can speculate a soft faction merge at the least, hard merge at the most. This sets up the Forsaken for a redemption story where they finally realize that they've turned into the monsters they feared under Sylvanas and can move towards changing that with Calia.
    and for those of you that were loyalists: think underground cabals awaiting the return of the Banshee queen.
    Agreed. I know people like their Forsaken themes but they can still have them, just forget that you have your rightful heir to the throne reinstated. Everything about Calia coming back and leading her people out of the rat-holes makes sense.
    Mighty one, never forget.

  5. #465
    I don’t bother much with what happens in the story of WoW so I think it’s funny how people always complain how boring and bland the story is, and as soon as there is a change which actually can build the story of the Forsaken people start to bitch and whine.

  6. #466
    Well, as long as this doesn't consume the entire identity of the race, whatever. Calia will probably get stabbed in the back, or turn out to be a void lord, sooner rather than later, but it would be a pity if this destroyed the fun bits of the race, like the Royal Apothecary Society, poisoning PoWs, smashing the heads of buried farmers, hunting down wolf-men, kicking the scarlet crusade's ass, etc.

    I would not be thrilled if the Undercity became as sparkly as the Exodar

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The tauren and orcs have just as many minor characters that had their own fun quests and development in Classic and Cata as the Forsaken do.
    That's true, and they're just as out of focus as the Forsaken ones are if not less so since the Forsaken at least make token appearances without Sylvanas, whereas the only time tauren do anything is when it's time for Baine to prostrate himself before his masters again. The difference between Sylvanas and Anduin in terms of unopposed leadership is that Sylvanas' personality cult is an in-story element and the human hivemind is an out of story convenience.

    There is a pronounced double standard and that's chiefly because the kind of leadership Sylvanas (used to) represent differs so drastically from the other hiveminds and has actual in-game presence rather than being a given.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The difference between Sylvanas and Anduin in terms of unopposed leadership is that Sylvanas' personality cult is an in-story element and the human hivemind is an out of story convenience.
    I think Anduin's leadership being unopposed among humans has little with the people of Stormwind agreeing with him and more with the fact that he is a king of a people used to monarchy, with a nobility that has been rightfully neutered after their complete failure and with strong characters who place their loyalty to the crown first. In short, Shaw and Wyrmbane don't have to agree with Anduin, they are just doing their job and working for the crown because that's how a monarchy works. Shaw especially seems to be fairly creative with how he supports Anduin's orders.
    Sylvanas is not followed because she is Queen and it is expected to follow her. She is followed for who she is. Which makes absolute sense for first generation Forsaken, far less sense for everyone else.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    Calia being a spiritual leader to help the Forsaken cope with their existence? Sure, fine.

    Calia as a political leader? That's where I raise an eyebrow.
    To cope? Oh please. The Forsaken have been coping with undeath for 20 years or more. And having some light infused abomination telling the forsaken how to cope with the ugly from of undeath they suffer from is like having someone with mild cold help someone with a terminal disease cope with it. Calia is wrong for the Forsaken start to finish.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think that's being a bit too hard on Calia specifically as she has no idea what Voss' more recent history is as concerns her family, and probably most of the Forsaken don't either. I also doubt Voss took this as condescension from Calia, either; her father was probably once a good person himself - before the Third War and Balnazzar's effect on the Scarlet Crusade as a whole. But speaking to that, I can see many ways in which Calia's separation from the Forsaken is actually a good thing, she isn't mired in their traditional ways of thinking and represents an alternative position and outcome, to a degree. Outside observers bring in new perspectives, and the Forsaken specifically are kind of in dire need of new perspectives given their current plight. My main issue is that I don't think Calia personally is really leader material - she would be much better in a support or supplementary role to a more pragmatic or moderate leader (like Voss herself). That's why I could see Voss and Calia in a more shared role, with Calia as a spiritual leader to the Forsaken whereas Voss is the temporal leader - contrasted to Sylvanas who basically represented both aspects in a manner such that they mirrored one another. Derek might also serve in that role as opposed to Voss, but there I would think Derek's outsider status would be a deeper detriment than Calia's outsider status would be in a more ministerial role.
    Alternative positions are of value when they still originate from somewhere close to the same point. When there's no common frame of reference, and there isn't save for both being at some point citizens of Lordaeron, then it's just an out of place outside element. Calia does not occupy the same context as the Forsaken nor does she have any link to it. That comment, which of course goes unmentioned while Voss and the PC's internal monologue in the quest text gushes about Calia's honor is unintentionally demonstrative of this. Calia presumably remembers a nice priest dude, but the one we know is the one who abused his daughter into being a living weapon against his enemies and then tried to kill her because she turned undead. Voss had to struggle to get where she is now and experienced the same thing as the Forsaken did, and got better as well - ergo, she has the perspective to help others. Calia doesn't. It's even more farcical when she's talking to Delaryn because with Delaryn even the Lordaeron aspect is gone - why in the hell would an undead night elf seek solace in a Holy Light-themed human queen, one that she most likely didn't even know existed until five minutes ago. Derek fits better than Calia because his experiences were at least for a few weeks close to what regular Forsaken experienced as agents of the Lich King. They don't fit from any point after since he wasn't Forsaken, he can go around Boralus just fine and his sister loves him and he's spent the war dicking around in a cottage with his love interest before the divine right triggered and they decided to save those poor victims.

    Fuck do I despise this plotline.

    For a temporal leader, yes, I would agree - as mentioned above. Belmont is probably a bit too hard-line for the role, though I could see Lydon working out (depending on his reaction to Sylvanas' departure). The Forsaken kind of need a new spiritual leader with the loss of Sylvanas, and Calia I think would be a largely more beneficent one, one more in keeping with the general spiritual ethos of the Horde as well. If Calia ascends to the leadership of the Forsaken without some kind of light "council" element added to the role I'd chalk it up to an error on the part on the writers as well - I think she needs the touch of a character like Voss or Lydon to succeed in the role regardless of whether she becomes "Queen of the Forsaken" or just becomes their spiritual leader of some kind. Derek isn't going to work as a temporal leader of the Forsaken himself, and he's both too new and too distant from the old guard Forsaken to successfully serve in the same role Voss or Lydon would.
    Calia is spiritually alien to the Forsaken. The very first undead priest quest explains to you that its the will of the Forsaken, self-reliance and self-actualization that are the core virtues of the Forgotten Shadow and of the Forsaken. Calia is of the Light, the same force that forsook the Forsaken and that burns them at a touch, but doesn't burn her. Her spirit is whole and she chose this fate, they didn't. She isn't even an idealized version of them the way the Dark Rangers or Sylvanas were, since they can't even aspire to be what she is or put themselves in her shoes. The only way Calia works as a spiritual leader is if they go all out - they are lemmings without someone to make decisions for them and through Calia decide to repent for what they did, committing themselves to the things that previously harmed them but seeing that as a penance-like suffering. I.e, turn them more Scarlet Crusade. But that Calia is sought out by the Forsaken because they are lost without her and that the one other candidate the expansion is falling over herself to praise her has already done uncountable damage to the one actual progression the Forsaken have had, that is distancing themselves from the personality cult and adopting their own identity.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-10-09 at 08:56 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  11. #471
    I wouldn't care if Calia led the "Light" undead while the normal undead had someone else; Voss? A council? whatever.

  12. #472
    Sounds like Forsaken and the Horde are now entering the dullness of the Alliance. Would have preferred Faranell and the Apothecaries to take over.
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  13. #473
    Pandaren Monk Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rootsbum View Post

    I dont understand why everyone glorify the storytelling back in the days of Warcraft and such, it was full of cliches and such as well
    It's still full of clichés. But guess what? For 15 years the Forsaken were ruthless motherfuckers who lied, stabbed and poisoned their way to victory, climbing the corpses of the living that shunned them for being undead. And people played Forsaken for this very specific racial fantasy. If they wanted to play humans they can pick: Human, fat human and human that was bitten by a werewolf. Rotting human doesn't work that well.

  14. #474
    So Horde lost the war against Alliance. Now Alliance puts their puppets to control the population. Typical US scenario. Why am I not surprised?

  15. #475
    I cannot wait for the Dark Ranger announcement, they set it up beautifully for them to fit in as the next class, having both Nathanos and Sylvanas leave the Horde we can now have neutral Dark Rangers.
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  16. #476
    Mechagnome elbleuet's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm the only one, but I have the feelings Calia will never lead the forsaken as a Horde leader, but instead as an Alliance one.

    This is how things will work :

    She will try to rule over all the forsakens and unite them under a single banner but will be eventually dethroned by either Sylvanas, her loyalists, or the forsaken who made life their ennemy.

    She will then seek the Alliance protection for all those who followed her, thus bringing the Lightforged into the Alliance.


    Calia is first mentionned by Jaina in Stormwind. Then first introduced in Kul'Tiras during an Alliance epilogue. Then again Alliance players are present when she tells Jaina why she's leaving Kul'Tiras.

    If Blizzard wanted her to be a Horde ruler, things would have been different.
    "One day, Silvermoon will stand again on the side of the Alliance, I know it"

    - Alleria Windrunner

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    To cope? Oh please. The Forsaken have been coping with undeath for 20 years or more. And having some light infused abomination telling the forsaken how to cope with the ugly from of undeath they suffer from is like having someone with mild cold help someone with a terminal disease cope with it. Calia is wrong for the Forsaken start to finish.
    Not all forsaken are from the original batch during Frozen Throne. So not all of them have been at this for over a decade. I don't have a problem with it as an option, as something some forsaken do, but if their plan is to tie up the whole forsaken identity in this then that will be a problem.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Can I ask why Belmont or Lydon? Why a Deathstalker instead of a Deathguard and why Lydon instead of Faranell?
    In regards to Belmont, chances are a spy like a Deathstalker would have more political clout than a soldier like a Deathguard. If you want military, an Executioner would be a better choice since they seem to have some administrative tasks as well. In regards to Apothecaries an argument could be made for Faranell of course, but he seems focused on science while Lydon showed some penchant for politics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Another concern with Calia as Forsaken leader is that if we have an expansion about Sylvanas it is very likely that we will see Calia be the opposing force and not the Forsaken as a people. Calia has her own story arc that is clearly separate than the arc of the Forsaken so placing her at the front would do much the same that having Sylvanas did; place the leader's story in front and leave the race behind.
    That is another good argument against Calia. Especially since having actual Forsaken not be there for a confrontation with Sylvanas would be like not having Sylvanas during the final confrontation with Arthas (so, obviously what will happen).


    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Plus Calia very likely will have a villain arc. She is a perfect fit for Il'gynoth's new prophecy, she is a perfect fit for the Light working with the enemy of all. Do we really want to give the Forsaken ANOTHER leader who drags the race with them in villain territory?
    Or Blizzard will simply forget about it because they won't touch a female Anduin.
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  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    Not all forsaken are from the original batch during Frozen Throne. So not all of them have been at this for over a decade. I don't have a problem with it as an option, as something some forsaken do, but if their plan is to tie up the whole forsaken identity in this then that will be a problem.
    It does not matter when they were turned undead, the fact is that the Forsaken and Calia are two different types of undead, one kept alive by dark magic, having to deal with decay and other insanity inducing issues, while Calia does not have to deal with shit.

  20. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godric View Post
    Agreed. I know people like their Forsaken themes but they can still have them, just forget that you have your rightful heir to the throne reinstated. Everything about Calia coming back and leading her people out of the rat-holes makes sense.
    And once again non Forsaken fans are trying to tell them what to do how to behave and what to feel like. Never change Alliance community. Never change. You are doing a great job at exposing yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    It does not matter when they were turned undead, the fact is that the Forsaken and Calia are two different types of undead, one kept alive by dark magic, having to deal with decay and other insanity inducing issues, while Calia does not have to deal with shit.
    This. Light forgiveness has nothing to do with the Forsaken theme. The Light forsake them first. Which is why they went towards the shadows. Calia is the anti thesis of what it means to be forsaken.

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