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  1. #521
    just in time to roll out those new undead models in 9.0 lol. enjoy being gray humans.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    People said the same thing about Thrall leaving. They were right for a while; Garrosh was an embarrassment. But I think the orcs have become pretty decent again after overcoming that dark time.

    Losing an identity is a chance for decent writers to build a new one, less stale and weighted down than before.

    Just gotta hope Blizz has enough of those left (and they don't quit over Blitz Chung, still hope Blizz salvages that horrible move somehow).
    WoD took an extra brown dump of poo on Orc identity. They have become effectivly the cannon fodder race of the Horde with no value of their own since Blizzard managed to kill every single important Character that is not Thrall(Geya'rah too), twice in a row now and joined into the dumpster fire of raid bosses. The Horde is dead. That is a fact. The Alliance is doing fine. Annd at least in that special situation here, NOT the victim.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "Chronicle Vol. 3" isn't as forthcoming as you imply here - pg. 113 "The Forsaken and the Horde" said that the Blood Elves "feared the undead and treated [the Forsaken] as monsters," meaning that they just considered them Scourge and shunned them accordingly (and not without due reason given what the Scourge did to Quel'Thalas). They weren't willing to take the chance that the Forsaken were actually free-willed and potentially allow more Scourge into their already besieged homeland. The same page addresses the Alliance emissaries as well - "... her emissaries to the Alliance never returned. Sylvanas suspected they hadn't survived long enough even to make it past the first gates of Stormwind City." That word "suspected" is key, as Sylvanas actually has no idea what happened to them, she only suspects the Alliance killed them (which they likely did, probably for the same reasons as the Blood Elves). Prior to the Forsaken there was no real public precedent for free-willed or "good" undead, the undead were always monstrous beings and the legacy of the Third War and the Scourge would've loomed large for pretty much every government on Azeroth. By the time of Classic the Forsaken are a known quantity, allied with the Horde, and Nathanos himself had slaughtered a contingent of SI:7 scouts in a particularly brutal fashion - explaining much of Stormwind's animosity toward the Forsaken at that time.
    As said, I'm not making excuses for the Forsaken here or treating those parties as irrational, so much as saying that they weren't acting just out of lack of information or at prompting from Sylvanas. Especially re: Sylvanas and the blood elves since the word of the Horde wouldn't mean much if it's Sylvanas reaching out to them later on anyway. She still got rejected by them on the same page. And while the envoys' fate is ambiguous in Chronicle, Anduin says it directly in BTS and apologizes to Sylvanas about it as I recall. I think you're overplaying the ignorance and setting aside that even then there was the overall suspicion of the Forsaken as bad dudes and also the religious element of undead being against the Light. Hence the alterac quest where it tells you that official church doctrine is to burn their hearts because killing them is doing them a favor and so forth. To cover the next bit into this as well, what I'm getting at is that the Forsaken troubles back then were 'real' and unavoidable and not the fruit of some bad act by Sylvanas specifically that can be offloaded onto her.

    The identity of an individual is not the same as the identity of a people, which is why trying to compare the Forsaken as a whole to Illidan in specific isn't really a workable comparison on the face of it. It's fine for Illidan to stick to his guns and go out as himself, it was a personal battle for him as well as a personal calling. The Forsaken, as a people, need to be able to persist and survive as a people in order for individuals to have a purpose in the singular fashion. Illidan has no sodality, he defines himself by his singular nature. The Forsaken can't share in that distinction - they need a different path, preferably one that doesn't end in their extinction. I would argue that the Forsaken, as of BfA, haven't shown the capacity to self-govern at all - they relied on Sylvanas for that, subsuming their vaunted wills into her cult of personality and becoming her instruments (first as arrows in her quiver and then as pieces of her bulwark against final death). That's neither self-governance nor self-reliance, in my view.
    It's true that these are different identities. What I'm getting at is the core contrast of how being relieved of these difficulties you overcome by way of literal divine intervention and reverting to a previous identity that circumstances and your own choices separated you from is treated in Illidan's and the Forsaken's cases. I.e for Illidan it's bad, for the Forsaken it's good. As for the post-BTS Forsaken, yeah, no argument there, they're lemmings and I've been saying as much for a while. I heavily disagree that they were that before, but that's no longer relevant. As far as BTS and on is concerned, the Forsaken are people desperately in need of a ruler to tell them what to do, with even their prominent individuals being generally weak in terms of conviction and seeking someone to command them. Sylvanas' assessment of them as pitiable clingers is basically true. My issue chiefly is that this is an extremely weird direction in a story that tells us that Sylvanas is gone because of the personality cult and that she's generally supposed to be wrong, yet the Forsaken then immediately seek another personality cult and her reading of them is spot on. As a Forsaken fan, for there to be even a prayer of them to not be this shambles and reclaim their prior identity or develop one close to it, they need to ditch Calia.

    I don't agree with the whole "sad humans" or "humans with a skin condition" hyperbole, I don't buy into the notion that changing from their prior characterization is a wholesale embrace of their former humanity in any real sense. The Forsaken *always* needed to be ruled - first by Sylvanas, and now apparently by Calia. Perhaps Calia and/or Voss can teach them another way, who can really say?
    The Forsaken did not beg to be ruled by Sylvanas. She tailored herself after their needs as much as vice versa. Hence why you've consistently had more extreme figures than her as well as more moderate ones. At least until the new canon, hence why I disagree with the 'always' part. But as for them changing from their prior characterization not being embracing their humanity wholesale, that'd be true only if that wasn't the change and it is - it's the whole point of Calia and of BTS. That they really are just humans and want to live like humans. Once again, there's a reason the entire prior Forsaken cast has ceased to be. They have no place among the nu-undead.

    Really depends. Calia's rejection of the Menethil name seems more due to her own conflict concerning her brother's legacy and the saddening death of her father - not an outright rejection, just one borne more out of the feeling that the name had been tainted (and could also be dangerous for her to claim publicly given the widespread hatred for her brother). Calia also made no bones out of her desire not step into her father's old shoes, at least not until she gained a firsthand look at the plight of the Forsaken under Sylvanas. I don't personally think that the Light is itself unalloyed evil, I just think it's not unalloyed good, either. Like all the greater powers in Azeroth it's looking out more for itself and its own furtherance as opposed to acting purely altruistically. Sometimes this is a net positive, and sometimes it's a net negative. Calia's case is yet to be established, in my eyes; we need more data (which will likely be on offer in the days to come).
    I think the Light is, except perhaps for Life, probably the most benign cosmic power. That doesn't however mean it doesn't push its interests. As said, I don't think Calia is the carrier of that kind of twist, only that if you want to adopt that track, there's material to work with. In that light though, I'm kind of skeptical about the notion that she did it because of public disapproval for the family name so much as to be her own person. Which, following said dreams she had in BTS, is a perspective she flipped on and that she completely shifted on after her resurrection.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-10-10 at 11:00 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Faerillis View Post
    As a Horde player, leave Monarchism to the Alliance. Having someone important as your father gives you the right to say "I'm _____'s kid" and fuck all else.
    Well obviously anyone can see the council of tiristfal is going to be restored anyways so we are looking at unified factions going forward and Peace Mode for cross faction PvE content is coming too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    just in time to roll out those new undead models in 9.0 lol. enjoy being gray humans.
    That can be Paladin
    Last edited by Unholyground; 2019-10-11 at 12:28 AM.
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  5. #525
    Scarab Lord Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    and with that the unification can be complete, the last traces of pesky interesting traits can be removed from the final interesting race.

    All hail the new sad grey humans.
    I'm not sure their story is going to stop at Calia, I think a lot of the Forsaken in game will reject her. If they really are going to try approaching a more factionless style of play, Calia provides the other races/nations an excuse not to wipe the Forsaken out as soon as everyone is "one faction of Azerothonians." If they just went with another Sylvanas as leader, the Worgen, Night Elves, probably the Light Forged, maaaybe the Tauren tribes might be directly aggressive towards them and the other races probably wouldn't do much to help. Only person I can think of who might try to stop any attacks on the undead is Thrall. The Forsaken have always made it clear they were just allied with the Horde for mutual protection. Now that there are only external threats, the Forsaken don't have to be tolerated.

    Calia and Derek provide protection from "the good guys".

  6. #526
    Horde Forsaken are all resurrected into living humans by godchild anduin, race deleted, factions united. /thread

  7. #527
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    I'm not sure their story is going to stop at Calia, I think a lot of the Forsaken in game will reject her. If they really are going to try approaching a more factionless style of play, Calia provides the other races/nations an excuse not to wipe the Forsaken out as soon as everyone is "one faction of Azerothonians." If they just went with another Sylvanas as leader, the Worgen, Night Elves, probably the Light Forged, maaaybe the Tauren tribes might be directly aggressive towards them and the other races probably wouldn't do much to help. Only person I can think of who might try to stop any attacks on the undead is Thrall. The Forsaken have always made it clear they were just allied with the Horde for mutual protection. Now that there are only external threats, the Forsaken don't have to be tolerated.

    Calia and Derek provide protection from "the good guys".
    I admit I would laugh if for all their talk Derek and Calia couldn’t change the Forsaken and the Royal apothecary just keeps on going on as Calia and Derek take turns trying to hug them to make them better people.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  8. #528
    As someone who has played Forsaken Holy Priest for 15 years, I think this all sounds like a super neat change. My Priest has never been very loyal to Sylvanas. Her sister though (Rogue) is very loyal. So if there is some sort of split within the Forsaken I have the opportunity to play and experience both sides of that.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    And while the envoys' fate is ambiguous in Chronicle, Anduin says it directly in BTS and apologizes to Sylvanas about it as I recall.
    I mean, Anduin would apologize for those envoys even if he only had recently heard they existed. It's Anduin we are talking about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    I admit I would laugh if for all their talk Derek and Calia couldn’t change the Forsaken and the Royal apothecary just keeps on going on as Calia and Derek take turns trying to hug them to make them better people.
    I mean who knows, maybe when Calia hugs you, you get a surge of Holy energy so Calia hugging them would be torture. Derek is used to it.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean, Anduin would apologize for those envoys even if he only had recently heard they existed. It's Anduin we are talking about.
    Point, but Anduin is also all-knowing and all-loving so we can take him as a reliable source. In fact, sometimes he gets his identities mixed up which is why he remembers swearing to keep Bolvar's fate a secret despite being a kid at the time.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Point, but Anduin is also all-knowing and all-loving so we can take him as a reliable source. In fact, sometimes he gets his identities mixed up which is why he remembers swearing to keep Bolvar's fate a secret despite being a kid at the time.
    Hey, perhaps Tirion told every leader "Bolvar is the Lich King but keep it secret please, I swore on my paladin honor!" and Anduin was present. You know, alongside half the Stormwind guard and that scullery maid clearing Genn's spittoon.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Hey, perhaps Tirion told every leader "Bolvar is the Lich King but keep it secret please, I swore on my paladin honor!" and Anduin was present. You know, alongside half the Stormwind guard and that scullery maid clearing Genn's spittoon.
    We know for sure that Aethas didn't get the memo since he was gabbing all about it last time. Though the idea that it'd spook people is about outdated now that they've had a titan stab their planet and an Old God passively destroy it just by exisiting in proximity and waiting for the Corruption bar to fill up.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  13. #533
    Night Elf main. BFA has been two years of bad writing and character assassinations. The only consolation prize is the wailing of the undead as they are forced to welcome the new King and Queen of the Forsaken. A Menethil and a Proudmoore. They had their fun as Scourge 2.0, now its time to repent. Maybe Auntie Jaina can pop now and then to remind the Forgiven to read their Bibles so they wont go to Superhell with Sylvanas the Deceiver.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    Night Elf main. BFA has been two years of bad writing and character assassinations. The only consolation prize is the wailing of the undead as they are forced to welcome the new King and Queen of the Forsaken. A Menethil and a Proudmoore. They had their fun as Scourge 2.0, now its time to repent. Maybe Auntie Jaina can pop now and then to remind the Forgiven to read their Bibles so they wont go to Superhell with Sylvanas the Deceiver.
    I wish I could take the same joy in Tyrande being set up to be sacrificed on the altar of the Unifaction while her adoptive daughter of 10k years lectures her on love and peace, but sadly I actually like the night elves and they're pretty much the only race allowed to keep at least the bare suggestion of balls at the end of this. I'd much rather she help Genn rediscover his pre-BTS characterization and at worst take up the token evil teammate thing that Sylvanas had going in Vanilla.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    I'm not sure their story is going to stop at Calia, I think a lot of the Forsaken in game will reject her. If they really are going to try approaching a more factionless style of play, Calia provides the other races/nations an excuse not to wipe the Forsaken out as soon as everyone is "one faction of Azerothonians." If they just went with another Sylvanas as leader, the Worgen, Night Elves, probably the Light Forged, maaaybe the Tauren tribes might be directly aggressive towards them and the other races probably wouldn't do much to help. Only person I can think of who might try to stop any attacks on the undead is Thrall. The Forsaken have always made it clear they were just allied with the Horde for mutual protection. Now that there are only external threats, the Forsaken don't have to be tolerated.

    Calia and Derek provide protection from "the good guys".
    1)Since even horde not all about monarchy rule, why would they fallow daughter of some guy that ruled over them long ago...

    2)And what would happen if Calia was still alive, or had some offspring 4-7 years kid....?

    3)Would Forsaken follow 4-7 years old kid as their new RULER? if he is 100% Menethil.

    4)What if real last name of Anduin is Menethil then what is going on with all this leadership of Forsaken?
    Last edited by cocomen2; 2019-10-11 at 11:15 AM.
    I want these classes in new x-pac :Necromancer,Runemaster,Warden,BladeMaster,DarkRanger,Alchemist,Lich,Tinker,SpiritWalker
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Necromancer and Dark Ranger are rip offs of already existing classes
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Not true at all, people with this view have no imagination.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Forsaken get a leader that actually cares about them, people still mad


    Amazing
    Exactly! People love being miserable I guess.

  17. #537
    How are they justifying a war between the alliance and the forsaken after this?
    Are Calia and Derek mad at the alliance for some unexplained reason?

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Pper View Post
    How are they justifying a war between the alliance and the forsaken after this?
    Are Calia and Derek mad at the alliance for some unexplained reason?
    Calia and Jaina's birthday is on the same day and whoever's henchmen win the war, that's the one Derek has to attend that year.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Forsaken get a leader that actually cares about them, people still mad


    Amazing
    If i want leader that "Cares about them", i would play human and bend knee to Anduin long ago.

    But Forsaken not about caring, players wants to be outcast semi-evil zombies.

    What a point in name "Forsaken" then after this, if they are "NotsoForsaken" loved by light and god herself, better resurrect them back to life , you care for them.
    "Calia we ready to be blessed BY LIGHT, yeah,right"
    Last edited by cocomen2; 2019-10-11 at 11:32 AM.
    I want these classes in new x-pac :Necromancer,Runemaster,Warden,BladeMaster,DarkRanger,Alchemist,Lich,Tinker,SpiritWalker
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Necromancer and Dark Ranger are rip offs of already existing classes
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Not true at all, people with this view have no imagination.

  20. #540
    Since when were Voss' loyalties "always" with the Forsaken? She was refreshing for not being yet another "DA DERK LERDY!" clone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

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