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  1. #761
    Herald of the Titans Alex86el's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Or because Calia has the personality of a wet paper bag, and who's character is literally just Anduin but a girl and LIGHTFORED!!!11 undead.

    Sylvanas is an interesting character with history of the Forsaken, hell she made the Forsaken, her "replacement" isn't even Forsaken, or even Horde, its no wonder Forsaken players don't fucking want Calia.
    totally agree.
    i dislike Calia very much as well. and all those new gimicky characters.
    and i liked sylvanas because she made things interesting.
    but any leader would be preferable to Sylvanas, for anyone who cares for the forsaken and the horde.

  2. #762
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It is without relevance, because I said right out that an overlap existed between Calia's values and those of Thrall and/or Saurfang, but that this overlap was considerably less than the overlap she has with the Alliance.
    It was an aside, not any kind of central pillar of the argument. An overlap with the Alliance isn't some form of cancelling factor for any form of overlap with the Horde, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    No, that's your reading of it because you can't seem to grasp the difference between say, Sylvanas and Anduin chatting before the Gathering, or Thrall and Jaina discussing where things went wrong and the Alliance King quite literally freeing Saurfang to send him on a mission to overthrow the Warchief of the Horde he is pledged to during a total war between the two. It's the content of the conversation that made Saurfang an Alliance patsy, not the intrinsic fact that the conversation took place. I am well aware that the groundwork has been laid to give the Forsaken the final lethal injection, but even in the scope of that abortion of a quest Calia at no point fit better with the Horde than the Alliance, she just reinforced that the nu-undead fit with the Alliance as does she. The setup has been for her to take over the undead, that the undead are tethered to the Horde and so can't just join up with their leader and go with her friends to the society they have more in common with and now accepts them is just gameplay necessity, not any kind of narrative groundwork done.
    Saurfang started opposing Sylvanas well before that conversation took place, after the burning of Teldrassil and her actions at Lordaeron - Anduin had nothing to do with that, and there was no "mission" Anduin sent Saurfang on because opposition to Sylvanas was already on Saurfang's plate (by proxy if not directly). But this diversion still has nothing at all to do with Calia's plight or her future within the Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Calia isn't an outsider. She was asked not to leave and her leaving doesn't require her to give anything up except her nice cottage home that she can always return to. Calia is incomparable with the Forsaken's original joining of the Horde, the blood elves, goblins or Darkspear. She joins the Horde not for any in-story reason, because there's nothing in the story preventing her from being with her friends again, but because she is prevented by the medium from moving the undead to the faction where they belong. Character ties are one way to get her into the group, another is values, which as said, she shares only the most basic level everyone of the current cast agrees with of or necessity, which doesn't happen.
    Calia is a form of undead that has never been seen before, who has no easy comparison. She's definitely an outsider to the Horde, as you've made quite plain in your own argumentation. I'm not sure what other criteria you need to define Calia as an outsider in any real context here. She's joining the Horde because she considers the Forsaken her own people and wishes to minister to them, and it appears as though at least some of the Forsaken (Voss, Derek, and Delaryn) desire her inclusion as well. What other values are you looking for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Nightborne, nu-undead and blood elves belong on the Alliance because they fit the mold Calia does, none more than the nu-undead of which she is the leader. I fundamentally disagree with the notion that the Horde has no thematic or aesthetic limitations, because again, an organisation that has none of these should not exist, it's quite literally nothing as it stands for nothing. It does not even stand for an alliance of convenience, because Calia would be far more convenienced in the Alliance and so would the undead. She does not need to be in the Horde, the way every other participant at some point needed to be. She does not tie in with the Horde's cultural background or rites, the way the Highmountain tauren or vulpera do. She owes the Horde nothing, and Derek especially doesn't, given that his record with the Horde is being killed by them, being raised by them into a slave, getting rescued by a guy after being turned into an undead abomination to be returned to his family and finally deciding that despite having the acceptance and love of his family and no cultural link with Lordaeron whatsoever, he'd sooner go to the guys who did jack to save him from his enslavement. Again, as you've failed to answer time and again - the entire core of her character, the reason she was introduced was to tie the Forsaken to the Alliance, not the Horde, to regress their identity back to when they were humans of the Alliance of Lordaeron, not to strengthen their bonds with the Horde.
    You have a very strange notion of what constitutes a nation-state, and the idea that an organization cannot contain cultural diversity seems both wrongheaded and almost comically insular to me. As for "failing to answer time and again," that would be because I find your argument nonsensical and thus impossible to answer in any cogent fashion considering I think you're entirely wrong about Calia's character and general purpose within the narrative, wrong about the nature of the Horde, wrong about what the Horde values, and wrong about the narrative's ultimate trajectory. Your views don't square in any way with my understanding of the narrative, and I can't assemble the things you claim into anything approaching a cohesive argument on their own. Given your repeated attempts to re-frame the argument into something entirely else I'm assuming you're aware of this and trying in vain to move the goalposts into something easier to argue, but I can't be sure. Either way, I think we're at "agree to disagree" territory once more and I'll just leave it at that.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  3. #763
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean everything that people can heap on Calia as not being Horde enough could have been said back in Vanilla for Sylvanas and the Forsaken and again in TBC for the Blood Elves.
    While not an unfair point, a whole group joining with their leader a new organization is one thing, a leader coming out of nowhere to lead that same group is another. I mean, it's comfortable for Blizzard to have Calia Menethil redeeming the Menethil legacy by leading what are technically her own people, but the way she's introduced to them and the way the Forsaken are supposed to accept her without question is dubious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    While not an unfair point, a whole group joining with their leader a new organization is one thing, a leader coming out of nowhere to lead that same group is another. I mean, it's comfortable for Blizzard to have Calia Menethil redeeming the Menethil legacy by leading what are technically her own people, but the way she's introduced to them and the way the Forsaken are supposed to accept her without question is dubious.
    Heh dubious is a mild way to put it. It's ludicrous. My point mainly was that when it comes to sticking out as a sore thumb in the Horde, Calia is really nothing special.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Heh dubious is a mild way to put it. It's ludicrous. My point mainly was that when it comes to sticking out as a sore thumb in the Horde, Calia is really nothing special.
    She sticks out like a sore thumb in both the Horde and the Forsaken, which is why your comparison to Sylvanas falls flat. If anything, with the Horde being led by a coalition of Baine, Thrall and Lor'themar, she sticks out less in the Horde than she does among the Forsaken.
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  6. #766
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Nightborne, nu-undead and blood elves belong on the Alliance because they fit the mold Calia does, none more than the nu-undead of which she is the leader. I fundamentally disagree with the notion that the Horde has no thematic or aesthetic limitations, because again, an organisation that has none of these should not exist, it's quite literally nothing as it stands for nothing. It does not even stand for an alliance of convenience, because Calia would be far more convenienced in the Alliance and so would the undead. She does not need to be in the Horde, the way every other participant at some point needed to be. She does not tie in with the Horde's cultural background or rites, the way the Highmountain tauren or vulpera do. She owes the Horde nothing, and Derek especially doesn't, given that his record with the Horde is being killed by them, being raised by them into a slave, getting rescued by a guy after being turned into an undead abomination to be returned to his family and finally deciding that despite having the acceptance and love of his family and no cultural link with Lordaeron whatsoever, he'd sooner go to the guys who did jack to save him from his enslavement. Again, as you've failed to answer time and again - the entire core of her character, the reason she was introduced was to tie the Forsaken to the Alliance, not the Horde, to regress their identity back to when they were humans of the Alliance of Lordaeron, not to strengthen their bonds with the Horde.
    Trying to pretend that Calia is indeed an exceptional leader 100% fit to lead the Forsaken (which I'm very skeptical about but whatever) and that "not being Horde" or "too much Alliance" is the only issue at hand (which is not) we could probably justify the matter by saying that Calia doesn't need to be Horde because the Forsaken already are, and whatever defined the Forsaken under Sylvanas' rule didn't really align with whatever "universal value" (semi-quote) held high in the Horde. The Forsaken are Horde because they are Horde, much like the Blood Elves (especially after they regained the Sunwell). Sure, compared to Blood Elves they are defined by extremely exotic characteristics but nearly none of them are "Horde" traits, they're "Forsaken" traits: the only notable common ground left with the Horde is the history built alongside them since the day they joined the group.

    In other words, a Forsaken state under Calia isn't going to be more or less Horde than a Forsaken state under Sylvanas, even though the Forsaken would probably be different, and since the Forsaken themselves are Horde by their long standing allegiance, Calia's lack of previous political alignement with the Horde is effectively trivial, especially since she would start to build her own personal history with the organization from that moment on.

    That being said, the more contronversial matter are indeed her ties with the Alliance. But even then, despite her long past history with the them (something for which she's not different from Sylvanas or any other Forsaken anyway) right now her relationship with a few Alliance figures is just a step further from Baine's own ties with them, a step that would probably turn back on Baine's equal terms the moment she would take the mantle and start to officially lead the Forsaken and be an Horde leader. Sure, she would be a guaranteed Alliance sympathizer like Baine and that's not good but I think that's besides the point. Personal tastes and opinions aside, if we once again pretend that Calia is somehow fit to lead the Forsaken, that she's somehow able to gain their trust and whatnot, the social and political bond she would have with them would probably surpass, if not bypass, her personal and individual ties with the Alliance and the lacking existence of those in the Horde.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2019-10-17 at 01:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  7. #767
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    That being said, the more contronversial matter are indeed her ties with the Alliance. But even then, despite her long past history with the them (something for which she's not different from Sylvanas or any other Forsaken anyway) right now her relationship with a few Alliance figures is just a step further from Baine's own ties with them, a step that would probably turn back on Baine's equal terms the moment she would take the mantle and start to officially lead the Forsaken and be an Horde leader. Sure, she would be a guaranteed Alliance sympathizer like Baine and that's not good but I think that's besides the point. Personal tastes and opinions aside, if we once again pretend that Calia is somehow fit to lead the Forsaken, that she's somehow able to gain their trust and whatnot, the social and political bond she would have with them would probably surpass, if not bypass, her personal and individual ties with the Alliance and the lacking existence of those in the Horde.
    For me, her fitness to lead the Forsaken is very different from her inability to be part of the Horde due to some perceived lack of cultural likeness. I don't consider her fit to lead myself - not because she's a former Human, or because she's friends with Jaina or Anduin, but because she has no experience in leadership and her last attempt to display one led not only to her own death but the deaths of the people she was attempting to save. I'm not opposed to a leadership coalition within the Forsaken (e.g. similar to the manner in which the Dwarves lead themselves) composed of Voss, Calia, Derek, and/or anyone else with experience among the Forsaken. But Calia alone wouldn't make a great leader at all, IMHO. But should she be barred from join the Horde via joining the Forsaken because of her past? I think the answer is "no."
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  8. #768
    Pretty sure, it is mostly a move to make those "We will reclaim Lordaeron for Calia Menethil" roleplayers shut up. Just like Voidelves to shut up highelves crying...

  9. #769
    Elemental Lord Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    you do remember that forsaken, a group of undead HUMANS, where lead by an undead ELF for several decades? Tell me how a silvermoon undead elf could relate to undead humans?

    Oh turns out she didn't that well in the end.
    We don't need none o' that there facts and logic round these parts!
    The amount of people who are supposedly over WoW/hate WoW, yet continue to spend every day of their lives whining about it here on the forums, never fails to astound me.

    Obsession is bad, kids!

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    We don't need none o' that there facts and logic round these parts!
    None of that is logical because the Forsaken are and always have been more than just Undead Humans. Forsaken are a political group not a race. Pretending that Sylvanas’, or any of the Undead Elves’, experience in Undeath is somehow different than the rest of the Forsaken is asinine. The reason people say Calia doesn’t fit the Forsaken has nothing to do with her race it has to do with the manner in which she was “raised” and how, unlike Sylvanas and the Forsaken, her experience in Undeath comes with virtually no downside.
    Last edited by Seradi; 2019-10-17 at 03:19 PM.

  11. #771
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    We don't need none o' that there facts and logic round these parts!
    which part of that was logical at all?
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  12. #772
    Skipping the bits about Saurfang, since I agree that we've veered off-topic from comparing his relationship to Anduin with Calia's and the difference between the two to instead rehashing his being or not being an Alliance patsy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Calia is a form of undead that has never been seen before, who has no easy comparison. She's definitely an outsider to the Horde, as you've made quite plain in your own argumentation. I'm not sure what other criteria you need to define Calia as an outsider in any real context here. She's joining the Horde because she considers the Forsaken her own people and wishes to minister to them, and it appears as though at least some of the Forsaken (Voss, Derek, and Delaryn) desire her inclusion as well. What other values are you looking for?
    Calia is an outsider to the Horde, yes. This stands in contrast to the original Forsaken who were outsiders away from the Horde and joined because they were rejected elsewhere. That's the difference between the two. It's her status as an outsider in the same sense as them, the blood elves, Darkspear, etc. that I am disputing, that she's outside the Horde is I think self-evident and agreed upon by both of us at that point. As for what other values I'm looking for to make her viable to the Horde, I've already gone over this, but given your final paragraph I might as well cover it there, not that I didn't multiple times already.

    You have a very strange notion of what constitutes a nation-state, and the idea that an organization cannot contain cultural diversity seems both wrongheaded and almost comically insular to me. As for "failing to answer time and again," that would be because I find your argument nonsensical and thus impossible to answer in any cogent fashion considering I think you're entirely wrong about Calia's character and general purpose within the narrative, wrong about the nature of the Horde, wrong about what the Horde values, and wrong about the narrative's ultimate trajectory. Your views don't square in any way with my understanding of the narrative, and I can't assemble the things you claim into anything approaching a cohesive argument on their own. Given your repeated attempts to re-frame the argument into something entirely else I'm assuming you're aware of this and trying in vain to move the goalposts into something easier to argue, but I can't be sure. Either way, I think we're at "agree to disagree" territory once more and I'll just leave it at that.
    While I appreciate you ditching this argument and almost appreciate the brass balls of trying this spin after agreeing with my assessment on the Forsaken's belonging in the Horde in the very previous page, it simply doesn't fly. This radical, difficult to grasp concept that I am proposing and that you are unable to assemble, let me do it for you again in one sentence: Races and characters that have more in common with the Alliance than the Horde should be in the Alliance. Far from an insular version of the Horde, my very first answer on this point was to gauge Calia with the descriptions of the factions in Mists of Pandaria and then go down the list of all broadly agreed upon traits in the topic about the values of the Horde. I then went over every single incarnation of the Horde, and she has less in common with any of them than with any of the Alliance. At the end of that I broaden my definition of being Horde to essentially amount to not having as one's purpose to brings its people in line with what they were in the Alliance, and she fails even that test. In lieu of belabouring this again, I'll just copy the bits over:

    Compare the Mists of Pandaria blurbs and do you think "struggling to keep aggression in check" "monstrous" and "values strength (and honor)" fits Calia better or maybe "nobility, faith, honor and sacrifice". Or to go over the list of the traits mentioned in the other thread - Calia is not militaristic in any sense, she's never been in a fight and dislikes it, she's not evil, she's honorable, but so is literally everyone on both factions so that's not a qualifier for anything, she's not monstrous, but beyond human perfection and she's never been rejected by anyone but is loved by every character who encounters her who isn't Satan incarnate. Add that to being the hereditary princess of the pre-WoW Alliance kingdom, with all the trappings thereof and explicitly aiming to restore its identity in contradiction with what it was for its entire tenure in the Horde. She is neither a noble, shamanistic and tribal character, nor a reject joining out of convenience. There is absolutely nothing about her that's Horde.
    @Zulkhan @Nymrohd

    I'm arguing that she doesn't fit with the Horde operating from the standpoint that she's already taken over the Forsaken and that her rewriting their identity is a non-issue that's already taken place. I.e, the Forsaken are already like Calia for the purposes of her not fitting the Horde.

    When the Forsaken joined the Horde they had jack to do with the WC3 Horde, and instead had the different uniting trait of being monstrous rejects, overlapping on no other point with the Horde. But they overlapped on basically no point with the Alliance and were indeed explicitly refused by the Alliance. Ditto the blood elves were explicitly set up against the Alliance, and had things like fel use, a mind-controlling autocracy and a light god in a basement. They stood to gain from being in the Horde, but had no opportunity/motive to join the Alliance. This is no longer the situation for the blood elves since TBC, was never the situation for the nightborne and is especially not the case for Calia-led undead. That's what that point for point comparison with the worgen was about - that there's already a race exactly like the new undead on the Alliance and they fit in well. Previously, the Forsaken may not have had much to do with the Kalimdor-Horde, but they had little in common with the Alliance. Now, from their character roster to their ethos, they have some traits in common with the Horde, but far more in common with extant Alliance races. Ergo, the only reason they don't just go to the Alliance is gameplay contrivance.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  13. #773
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Calia is an outsider to the Horde, yes. This stands in contrast to the original Forsaken who were outsiders away from the Horde and joined because they were rejected elsewhere. That's the difference between the two. It's her status as an outsider in the same sense as them, the blood elves, Darkspear, etc. that I am disputing, that she's outside the Horde is I think self-evident and agreed upon by both of us at that point. As for what other values I'm looking for to make her viable to the Horde, I've already gone over this, but given your final paragraph I might as well cover it there, not that I didn't multiple times already.
    Not just to the Horde - she's a unique specimen of undeath, and as such doesn't really belong to the Alliance or the Horde in a thematic sense. The Alliance doesn't count any undead beings in its ranks that I can think of - any Alliance member who's become undead has either joined the Horde or functions as an independent operator or outfit. I mean Bolvar had a lot of connections to the Alliance himself, he was once the Regent of Stormwind after all, but following his ascent to being Jailer of the Damned I think it's safe to say he's not Alliance anymore (or Horde for that matter).

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    While I appreciate you ditching this argument and almost appreciate the brass balls of trying this spin after agreeing with my assessment on the Forsaken's belonging in the Horde in the very previous page, it simply doesn't fly. This radical, difficult to grasp concept that I am proposing and that you are unable to assemble, let me do it for you again in one sentence: Races and characters that have more in common with the Alliance than the Horde should be in the Alliance. Far from an insular version of the Horde, my very first answer on this point was to gauge Calia with the descriptions of the factions in Mists of Pandaria and then go down the list of all broadly agreed upon traits in the topic about the values of the Horde. I then went over every single incarnation of the Horde, and she has less in common with any of them than with any of the Alliance. At the end of that I broaden my definition of being Horde to essentially amount to not having as one's purpose to brings its people in line with what they were in the Alliance, and she fails even that test. In lieu of belabouring this again, I'll just copy the bits over:
    My "agreement" with you was only based in the sense that the Forsaken and the Blood Elves didn't fit with the Horde of WC3, which is something I agree with - the problem with that argument, and especially your use of it, is that it's not applicable anymore. It *was*, back in the balmy days right after the Third War, when the nucleus of the Horde all shared the same thematic riffs, but the nature of the Horde changed when it brought the Forsaken on board, and changed again when the Blood Elves were added to the roster. We can argue all day long as to whether or not this should have happened, or if the thematic core of the Horde should've been preserved in proverbial amber, but it wasn't - therefore the argument is useless outside of "what if" speculation. The Forsaken, the Blood Elves, and the Nightborne now exist within the Horde as a kind of second way, most cosmopolitan and urbane, more refined, with aesthetics closer to that of the Humans than those of the Orcs. The more subtextual elements that link the Horde races are still there, of course, but the substantial ones are quite different. I would argue that your view of the Horde remains fixedly traditional, refusing to budge from the mold of WC3, where the narrative itself as well as the circumstances of the Horde have left that model behind. Even the way you treat the Forsaken as a wretched parody of what you think they should be points to this, but things have moved on.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  14. #774
    I could see Calia being a good leader by establishing a "round table" type of government along with other notable forsaken characters to make up for her inexperience.

    I'm not sure how her ties to the alliance are relevant when it comes to leading a nation of former alliance members, many of which have been shown to still wish to close that gap. How they would trust a Menethil of all things, after like 20 years of absence is an entirely different question, although it seems they just do judging by before the storm.

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not just to the Horde - she's a unique specimen of undeath, and as such doesn't really belong to the Alliance or the Horde in a thematic sense. The Alliance doesn't count any undead beings in its ranks that I can think of - any Alliance member who's become undead has either joined the Horde or functions as an independent operator or outfit. I mean Bolvar had a lot of connections to the Alliance himself, he was once the Regent of Stormwind after all, but following his ascent to being Jailer of the Damned I think it's safe to say he's not Alliance anymore (or Horde for that matter).
    That's a very narrow reading of what makes an Alliance theme, ironically enough. Undeath is not out of place because it's undeath, the worgens have a curse and they're fine. The reasons all prior undead didn't mesh with the Alliance is because the core components of undeath before BFA - that being the soul-body disconnect, the new reaction to the Light and the moral decay contradict core Alliance beats. Calia has none of these downsides - she's in fact, more holy than anyone in the Alliance except the Lightforged.

    My "agreement" with you was only based in the sense that the Forsaken and the Blood Elves didn't fit with the Horde of WC3, which is something I agree with - the problem with that argument, and especially your use of it, is that it's not applicable anymore. It *was*, back in the balmy days right after the Third War, when the nucleus of the Horde all shared the same thematic riffs, but the nature of the Horde changed when it brought the Forsaken on board, and changed again when the Blood Elves were added to the roster. We can argue all day long as to whether or not this should have happened, or if the thematic core of the Horde should've been preserved in proverbial amber, but it wasn't - therefore the argument is useless outside of "what if" speculation. The Forsaken, the Blood Elves, and the Nightborne now exist within the Horde as a kind of second way, most cosmopolitan and urbane, more refined, with aesthetics closer to that of the Humans than those of the Orcs. The more subtextual elements that link the Horde races are still there, of course, but the substantial ones are quite different. I would argue that your view of the Horde remains fixedly traditional, refusing to budge from the mold of WC3, where the narrative itself as well as the circumstances of the Horde have left that model behind. Even the way you treat the Forsaken as a wretched parody of what you think they should be points to this, but things have moved on.
    Your argument doesn't hold water both because I have little fondness for the WC3 Horde of noblesavages myself and because I explicitly note the common denominator between the blood elves, Forsaken and the rest of the Horde after their introduction - those being rejection, necessity and an incompatible morality, traits absent from the Alliance, hence why they fit one better than the other. While they don't share the exact same traits as the WC3 Horde and thank Christ for that, you can still find a common throughline in the Horde both of us have named before and reasons are given for why they are not Alliance.

    These reasons are no longer present for the undead or the two types of elves, I can't really oppose that there's this growing side-mass to the Horde that are more like the Alliance in it, and that it's still part of the Horde, but what I can say is that its existence is inexplicable. The writers take a similar track with it as you do. Take Bob - who never spoke with Thrall, had his way in the Horde secured by Sylvanas, then would have refused to support the Horde militarily in Northrend if he wasn't threatened. He later tried to defect during Garrosh's reign. Now he's saying that he and his people always looked up to the Warchief. It's an unearned story beat that's insufficiently explained, and even when there was an explanation - like how there was say, in the Purge of Dalaran, for why they would still stick with the Horde despite their distance from it thematically, that thematic incompatibility still stands. The characters claim they fit and talk like they fit, but that doesn't make the square a circle in the same way that a horse that quacks isn't a duck.

    As for the Calia and the new undead being a parody of the Forsaken, that's simple fact. I don't see how that matters though, since I'm arguing from the standpoint that the new undead do exist and that given their qualities, they are thematically an Alliance race due to sharing more traits in common with the Alliance than the Horde.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-10-18 at 07:39 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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