new forsaken leader spoilers

[mickybrighteyes]

How the hell does she have zero connection to the Forsaken? 90% of the Forsaken are citizens of Lordaeron, her people. She is the rightful Queen of Lordaeron. But talk out of your ass, I guess.

I think that % is off post cata after Forsaken were going around assimilating gilneans, altaraci, residents of stromguard and other northern EK groups. Then there's also the fact that Calia might have been an heir to lordaeron, but we're not discussing Lordaeron anymore. much like constantinople, lordaeron's been a long time gone.

[qwerty123456]

Best not to ask questions when you yourself have the answer wrong.

Sylvanas went through the same damn things the Forsaken went through, the faction she herself created, a kingdom of freewilled undead intending to have revenge and carve out their own destiny, even now Sylvanas is still Forsaken.

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The forsaken have killed Forsaken who have left or who have been accused of weakness since Vanilla.

What question do I have wrong?

Check my previous posts for clarification. Sylvanas went through different experiences with some being similar. Again you can create a faction and not truly be a part of it.
Does being a hockey team owner make you a hockey player? Does being worshiped sound like something that happens to normal forsaken? Does going against the freewill part of Forsaken make you forsaken?

you mean the idiots that tried to side with calia and the alliance?
or the idiot who helped Baine back stab the horde?

Check my previous posts for clarifications.
Backstab the Horde or just Sylvanas? She went against everything the forsaken are first by raising members of the horde as mindless undead and trying to remove freewill from others.

[Traveler Voltin]

What question do I have wrong?

Check my previous posts for clarification. Sylvanas went through different experiences with some being similar. Again you can create a faction and not truly be a part of it.
Does being a hockey team owner make you a hockey player? Does being worshiped sound like something that happens to normal forsaken? Does going against the freewill part of Forsaken make you forsaken?


Check my previous posts for clarifications.
Backstab the Horde or just Sylvanas? She went against everything the forsaken are first by raising members of the horde as mindless undead and trying to remove freewill from others.

are you seriously whining about the soulless and mindless skeletons(are are basically just golems) from the battle for lordaeron event?

[qwerty123456]

are you seriously whining about the soulless and mindless skeletons(are are basically just golems) from the battle for lordaeron event?

They were friends and family members. Desecrating the corpses of your own people when you plan on destroying everything anyways is super fucked up. She also was planning on enslaving Derek.

Again read my other posts I dislike lightforged undead immensely. I'm just pointing out hypocrisy .

[Super Dickmann]

Not everyone turned their back on the forsaken. Calia realized pretty much from the start of their existence there was some good undead.

The Light forsook the Forsaken, they burn at the touch of it. It didn't Calia, Calia is one with it. Their souls are misaligned which is why their morality is out of whack and their positive emotions are subdued. Hers is a-okay which is why she's the same ray of sunshine she always was. Other humans they reached out to turned the Forsaken away - Calia was never rejected by anyone, not in life or death, indeed her friends greeted her when she came back and she's happier for it. The Forsaken's undeath has downsides and niche benefits that only people as fucked up as they are would fully appreciate - Calia's state has all the benefits and zero downsides and she chose it by herself. Calia is anathema to the Forsaken. There's a reason almost her entire support comes outside of the Forsaken (and Horde) fanbase.

[Arrashi]

Calia as new leader in a nutshell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybuG9oBz8ak
so accurate it hurts.

[Friendlyimmolation]

What question do I have wrong?

Asking someone if they've played since Vanilla if you yourself have missed so much of Forsaken quests and identity.

Check my previous posts for clarification. Sylvanas went through different experiences with some being similar. Again you can create a faction and not truly be a part of it.
Does being a hockey team owner make you a hockey player? Does being worshiped sound like something that happens to normal forsaken? Does going against the freewill part of Forsaken make you forsaken?

This comes off as pretty disingenuous, as if you yourself know Sylvanas is Forsaken but continue to insist that she is not.

Are you no longer a football player because you retired and now own a team? No, you just have more experience than others, or a better comparison is once a Marine always a Marine.

Forsaken have been for THEIR freewill since their inception, but they care little for others. If Derek was raised to be a weapon only, then you can make the argument that he was never intended to be Forsaken.

Even the free will did not mean freedom from consequence, you see that back in Cata, those who leave the Forsaken but become or even are suspect of being enemies or even harmful to the Forsaken are killed.

[Super Dickmann]

That is both an unfair and not a true statement. The Light has repeatedly given its help to undead who have called for it. That it burns them because it is antithetical to the necromancy that animates them does not in any way mean it has forsaken them. We have several examples of undead who are willing and able to call upon the Light, and it always answers.

If using the power makes you experience agonizing pain since it realigns your soul, your organized religious version that you followed in life doesn't permit your existence and just by virtue of the lack of positive emotion and the more selfish mindset induced by undeath you have difficulty reaching out to it, then yeah, engaging with the way you did in life is impossible. Prior to BTS, using the light was the province of those with extremely powerful faith to whom self-sacrifice was no issue and masochists. Mind, it's not like it matters, Faol has zero problems with it and Calia goes without saying, so we can throw that out of the window along with everything else while we're at it.

[qwerty123456]

The Light forsook the Forsaken, they burn at the touch of it. It didn't Calia, Calia is one with it. Their souls are misaligned which is why their morality is out of whack and their positive emotions are subdued. Hers is a-okay which is why she's the same ray of sunshine she always was. Other humans they reached out to turned the Forsaken away - Calia was never rejected by anyone, not in life or death, indeed her friends greeted her when she came back and she's happier for it. The Forsaken's undeath has downsides and niche benefits that only people as fucked up as they are would fully appreciate - Calia's state has all the benefits and zero downsides and she chose it by herself. Calia is anathema to the Forsaken. There's a reason almost her entire support comes outside of the Forsaken (and Horde) fanbase.

I think the idea of lightforged undead is completely retarded but:

The light didn't really forsaken them though did it? They feel it did. You can still wield the light its just crazy painful. Its probably more an elemental affinity thing which is why rangers and shit had problems as well connecting to nature.

Calia is clearly part of the Il'gynoth quotes so we might not even have her in power very long. And if she isn't becoming a bag guy then its likely a way to explain how Forsaken can keep being made with Sylvanas gone.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That is both an unfair and not a true statement. The Light has repeatedly given its help to undead who have called for it. That it burns them because it is antithetical to the necromancy that animates them does not in any way mean it has forsaken them. We have several examples of undead who are willing and able to call upon the Light, and it always answers.

And it still brings them terrible pain, makes them recognize their own rot.

It's not just physical, its symbolic. The salvation of the light was stripped from them, their kingdom was brought to ruin by a man who was supposed to serve the light, the paladins failed to save them, and in death the focus of their religion in life now hurts them even if they can use it.

[Super Dickmann]

I think the idea of lightforged undead is completely retarded but:

The light didn't really forsaken them though did it? They feel it did. You can still wield the light its just crazy painful. Its probably more an elemental affinity thing which is why rangers and shit had problems as well connecting to nature.

Calia is clearly part of the Il'gynoth quotes so we might not even have her in power very long. And if she isn't becoming a bag guy then its likely a way to explain how Forsaken can keep being made with Sylvanas gone.

The Forsaken perceive it to have abandoned them since their relationship is fundamentally changed. They can still do it, and it's a damn shame we didn't have more characters who did, since the whole 'it burns me but i leave so damn hard and want to help people so much that i use it anyway' is cool, as is 'it's the only way i can still feel, so i'll use it anyway' shtick.

At least we agree on the LF undead part being retarded. Mind, I do think it can be done well - but that's if they're more inhumanly benevolent organic robots and less just regular people who happen to have the undead tag attached to make them viable candidates for Forsaken leadership.

As for Il'gynoth's prophecy, I learned not to trust that brain after he gave me false hopes about Anduin.

[Mehrunes]

And whats funnier is that she is the legit ruler of Lordaeron and many of the Forsaken wanted her back.

How many, exactly? And where are they hiding?

She was hunted by scourge, constantly in fear of her life and never being able to see her family again. Shunned for being the sister of Arthas and was attacked (and killed) because people feared her without truely knowing her which is exactly what happens to forsaken.

Oh, yes. She must have been quaking in her boots in the safety of a Draenei sanctuary Faol took her to. Given how she hid her name, no one shunned her. The few she revealed it to were fine with that. And no Forsaken was attacked (and killed) for being a would be usurper to another ruler, they were attacked (and killed) for what they were.

[Arrashi]

How many, exactly? And where are they hiding?

In the same place where all the orcs who didn't supported garrosh spent MoP.

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Again, my objection was to the way you worded it. The Light has not forsaken the Forsaken. They cannot stand it for obvious reasons, but it is there for them.

Kinda like abusive drunkard father.

[Mehrunes]

A ton more then 3. And its funny how you are pro Sylvanas killing everyone who disagrees with her and now you are upset when a new leader who hasn't killed her dissenters (yet) shows up. Sylvanas was a sexy elf banshee who could convert her body to ghost form and yet I don't see people like you bitching how she wasn't a true forsaken. Calia is almost completely Sylvanas 2.0 who only happened to have most of the bad shit happened to her while alive instead of her undeath and yet you people are crying that she isn't a true forsaken when the forsaken have never been lead by a true forsaken. Fleeing from ghouls and shit isn't hard?

Yeah, Sylvanas that was a puppet to the Lich King just like the rest of the Forsaken (and then personally helped many to break free like she did, unlike Calia who did fuck all) is truly the same as Calia. Trying to conjure an argument on how separate Sylvanas was to Forsaken because "ermahgerd and Elf" is bogus when Arthas' campaign resulted in 90% of Thalassian population being incorporated into the Scourge from which the Forsaken then splintered. Also, Sylvanas killed people that betrayed her, not those that merely disagreed with her. Not that this is relevant to Calia anyway. And name those "a ton more than 3" Forsaken that wanted Calia. Given how outside of Dalaran coin Calia hasn't even been mentioned until Legion, good luck with that.

So killing any returned undead who don't want to side with you is what it means to be forsaken? And creating a faction doesn't make you one. A king can order the formation of some knights under his command. It doesn't make him a knight the experiences of being a knight are what makes him one. Exactly what you are claiming against Calia which also works against Sylvanas.

Have you been forsaken since vanilla? Because what being a forsaken is has changed several times now in wow.

Comparison of a social class to a nation is totally valid The same applies to you trying to pigeon-hole Sylvanas' relation to the Forsaken to just her killing a handful of traitors, deliberately brushing everything else, including how she went through the same thing as they did, under the carpet. Simply splendid argument you got here.

Fucking a footman and then running away from zombies AND surviving isn't hard.

Let's not forget that by this amazing "surviving Scourge = Forsaken" Scarlet Crusade members are first grade Forsaken leader candidates.

[qwerty123456]

Asking someone if they've played since Vanilla if you yourself have missed so much of Forsaken quests and identity.




This comes off as pretty disingenuous, as if you yourself know Sylvanas is Forsaken but continue to insist that she is not.

Are you no longer a football player because you retired and now own a team? No, you just have more experience than others, or a better comparison is once a Marine always a Marine.

Forsaken have been for THEIR freewill since their inception, but they care little for others. If Derek was raised to be a weapon only, then you can make the argument that he was never intended to be Forsaken.

Even the free will did not mean freedom from consequence, you see that back in Cata, those who leave the Forsaken but become or even are suspect of being enemies or even harmful to the Forsaken are killed.

It's been 15 years so I'll admit I don't remember much but I don't remember there being a mention of joining or becoming dead again until they changed the zones.

And Cata isn't the start of the forsaken race.

Forsaken don't care about others? I'm pretty sure there are many quests where you help people....

This comes off as pretty disingenuous, as if you yourself know Sylvanas is Forsaken but continue to insist that she is not.

Are you no longer a football player because you retired and now own a team? No, you just have more experience than others, or a better comparison is once a Marine always a Marine.

You are proving my point exactly. Being a football player then retiring and becoming an owner means you were a football player. Being a Tech guy and owning a football team doesn't mean you are a football player. Its the experience. Just because someone had a somewhat similar experience of being a rugby player doesn't mean they become a football player when they own a football team.

Sylvanas was an elite ranger from a totally different race that had no real connection to the light. Most forsaken are civilian humans whose entire life pretty much revolved around the light. Sylvanas became a Banshee and gained vast powers while all other Forsaken are basically were just regular zombies. She was attacked by former humans and some dead elves lead by a human. Everyone that attacked the Forsaken were their former friends, family, and prince. She then kept her beauty while everyone else was forced to be rotten bags of flesh who repulsed people when they looked at them. They also looked no different from the scourge so of course any humans would freak out while Sylvanas looked like an elf.

[Mehrunes]

Just FYI I hate the idea of lightforged undead. I'm just pointing out that people who were fine with Sylvanas not even remotely having the experiences of a normal forsaken and having looks and abilites beyond them while also being worshiped instead of shunned is nowhere near what a forsaken is. The Forsaken have never truly had a forsaken leader except maybe for like 2 seconds when they tried and formed a council. Just because she created the faction doesn't make her a forsaken look at my previous post for clarification.

What the hell does Sylvanas being worshiped by other undead have to do with anything? Sylvanas was still shunned by the living. You know, the exact same group that shunned the rest of the Forsaken, because Forsaken didn't shun each other in general, it's not something they reserved just to Sylvanas. When Sylvanas first reached out to Quel'Thalas they told her to fuck off despite being an esteemed member of their society in life and someone who laid down her life for the Thalassian people.

And how are Sylvanas' powers "experiences" that would disqualify Sylvanas as a Forsaken? Forsaken Warlocks also have powers that the others lack. Does that make them not Forsaken? And how do looks factor into that? Sylvanas' appearance still changed. And depending on the circumstances of one's death one can be resurrected and still be in somewhat good shape. Being a Forsaken doesn't necessarily mean being ugly as sin.

[qwerty123456]

What the hell does Sylvanas being worshiped by other undead have to do with anything? Sylvanas was still shunned by the living. You know, the exact same group that shunned the rest of the Forsaken, because Forsaken didn't shun each other in general, it's not something they reserved just to Sylvanas. When Sylvanas first reached out to Quel'Thalas they told her to fuck off despite being an esteemed member of their society in life and someone who laid down her life for the Thalassian people.

And how are Sylvanas' powers "experiences" that would disqualify Sylvanas as a Forsaken? Forsaken Warlocks also have powers that the others lack. Does that make them not Forsaken? And how do looks factor into that? Sylvanas' appearance still changed. And depending on the circumstances of one's death one can be resurrected and still be in somewhat good shape. Being a Forsaken doesn't necessarily mean being ugly as sin.

She wasn't just worshiped by undead. Nor did people vomit when they saw her. She was killed by a different race. Forsaken were killed by their loved ones then shunned by the living ones. She still has 99% her people in the horde with her. Hell her family were even interested in reuniting with her. So apparently her one time 3 month ban is the same horrible experience as never getting to see your human friends and family for years/decades....

Her experience is different then normal forsaken. Hell she is willing to even sacrifice them for her own goals.

[Mehrunes]

They were friends and family members. Desecrating the corpses of your own people when you plan on destroying everything anyways is super fucked up. She also was planning on enslaving Derek.

Forsaken are well known to give a shit about desecrating corpses. That's why they made a weapon that turns the corpses of their targets into sludge /s And Sylvanas was planning to brainwash Derek, who wasn't a Forsaken to begin with, which isn't the same thing. Forsaken had a lobotomized human slave running through their city for years and no one even squinted, because they don't really care about their enemies.

That is both an unfair and not a true statement. The Light has repeatedly given its help to undead who have called for it. That it burns them because it is antithetical to the necromancy that animates them does not in any way mean it has forsaken them. We have several examples of undead who are willing and able to call upon the Light, and it always answers.

Oh, yes. I'm sure Forsaken would share your sentiment that they haven't been abandoned by the Light after it hurt them to use it because the state of being that was forced upon them against their will is antithetical to the Light.

Calia is clearly part of the Il'gynoth quotes so we might not even have her in power very long. And if she isn't becoming a bag guy then its likely a way to explain how Forsaken can keep being made with Sylvanas gone.

And nothing will come out of that just like nothing came out of Anduin's three lies.

[qwerty123456]

Forsaken are well known to give a shit about desecrating corpses. That's why they made a weapon that turns the corpses of their targets into sludge /s And Sylvanas was planning to brainwash Derek, who wasn't a Forsaken to begin with, which isn't the same thing. Forsaken had a lobotomized human slave running through their city for years and no one even squinted, because they don't really care about their enemies.


And nothing will come out of that just like nothing came out of Anduin's three lies.

Derek was raised just like a normal forsaken. Forsaken care about friends/family which is why the non undead humans hating/abandoning them was so hurting and such a major part of the race(hint its even in their name).


You chose to believe it was about Anduin. Plenty of people believed it was Wrathion and they turned out right.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas was an elite ranger from a totally different race that had no real connection to the light. Most forsaken are civilian humans whose entire life pretty much revolved around the light. Sylvanas became a Banshee and gained vast powers while all other Forsaken are basically were just regular zombies. She was attacked by former humans and some dead elves lead by a human. Everyone that attacked the Forsaken were their former friends, family, and prince. She then kept her beauty while everyone else was forced to be rotten bags of flesh who repulsed people when they looked at them. They also looked no different from the scourge so of course any humans would freak out while Sylvanas looked like an elf.

Except the experience that shaped the Forsaken into what they are now is what happened to them from the moment of their death onward... To which racial barriers are irrelevant. Sylvanas went through the same experience after death they did. And really, trying to hang onto her social position before her death? Is Alexi Barrov less of a Forsaken because he came from a very wealthy noble family? And the Scourge didn't discriminate. It incorporated civilians and soldiers alike. And civilians and soldiers alike then broke from the Lich King's grasp. They are all equally Forsaken.

Also, Sylvanas was forced to take part in Scourge's attack on the Sunwell. The High Elves defending it fought her just like the humans fought other Forsaken. She personally witnessed the death of Anasterian, meaning she was close to him when he died. And had Arthas not challenged him directly, chances are Sylvanas would have been forced to fight him just as she was forced to fight other Elves. And despite Sylvanas' appearance (which isn't really unique because Forsaken are preserved in the state they were resurrected in so if they were resurrected immediately and weren't mangled when killed they looked just fine) Blood Elves ignored her attempt to reach out just like humans ignored the Forsaken as a whole.

She wasn't just worshiped by undead. Nor did people vomit when they saw her. She was killed by a different race. Forsaken were killed by their loved ones then shunned by the living ones. She still has 99% her people in the horde with her. Hell her family were even interested in reuniting with her. So apparently her one time 3 month ban is the same horrible experience as never getting to see your human friends and family for years/decades....

Her experience is different then normal forsaken. Hell she is willing to even sacrifice them for her own goals.

She wasn't just worshipepd by the undead? Yeah, the undead did and felt multiple different things towards her than worship. How is that relevant to your argument? And given how Arthas wiped out 90% of the Thalassian race, rethink those numbers. And Sylvanas was forced to fight High Elves resurrected by the Scourge. Being forced to fight your friends and loved ones because of the Scourge isn't magically unique to humans because the Scourge used the same exact tactic wherever it went. And Vereesa was interested in reuniting with Sylvanas over a decade after Quel'Thalas fell, so what were you saying about not getting to see one's family for years/decades, again?

Derek was raised just like a normal forsaken. Forsaken care about friends/family which is why the non undead humans hating/abandoning them was so hurting and such a major part of the race(hint its even in their name).

Derek being raised just like a normal Forsaken doesn't make him Forsaken. Voss was raised the same way, she only joined in BfA. Rotbrain were raised the same way, they never joined. Just like Derek. And since Derek is neither a friend nor family to any known Forsaken, your remark here is an utter non-sequitur to the point you responded to.

You chose to believe it was about Anduin. Plenty of people believed it was Wrathion and they turned out right.

They turned out right? What lies did Wrathion tell us, again?

Also, still waiting for the names of the Forsaken wishing for Calia to come back.