Horde Striving Not To Be Warmongering = Horde Dead?

[Wylyth1992]

Like....what the hell does that mean? So, because the Horde is trying to strive for peace, to not be genocidal assholes like the MoP and BfA versions were, its suddenly no longer the Horde? Thats a load of crap, the Horde is not defined by the damage it does. The Horde has always been about being a collection of outcasts, of underdogs. THAT is the Horde.

[Arrashi]

I think its more about horde being stripped of all elements that made it....well....horde? Rather than just wanting peace.

[Mehrunes]

I think its more about horde being stripped of all elements that made it....well....horde? Rather than just wanting peace.

And the part where almost all of its leaders betrayed the Horde and crawled to the Alliance at some point or another during BfA, sabotaging Horde's war campaign somewhere along the way. When the Horde is led by Alliance's sycophants it's no longer Horde, it's Alliance's vassal state.

[Khaza-R]

The Horde has never really hit its mark in WoW imo. In WarCraft 3 they were suppose to be "noble savages" who were trying to find a new place in the world. But even Vanilla WoW did a pretty shitty job portraying that as the Horde was almost always the aggressor or committing despicable acts.

Fast forward through many expansions and we have gone through many iterations on the Horde. And now in BfA in the Horde has gone from pretty much an morally black faction to one completely purged and wholesome. But it still feels like it misses the mark on what the Horde is suppose to be.

[Mehrunes]

The Horde has never really hit its mark in WoW imo. In WarCraft 3 they were suppose to be "noble savages" who were trying to find a new place in the world. But even Vanilla WoW did a pretty shitty job portraying that as the Horde was almost always the aggressor or committing despicable acts.

What? Out of the five Vanilla areas of faction conflict where the aggressor was known, Alliance was the aggressor in Alterac Valley, Mulgore, Durotar and the Barrens.

[Soon-TM]

The Horde has never really hit its mark in WoW imo. In WarCraft 3 they were suppose to be "noble savages" who were trying to find a new place in the world. But even Vanilla WoW did a pretty shitty job portraying that as the Horde was almost always the aggressor or committing despicable acts.

Fast forward through many expansions and we have gone through many iterations on the Horde. And now in BfA in the Horde has gone from pretty much an morally black faction to one completely purged and wholesome. But it still feels like it misses the mark on what the Horde is suppose to be.

It's as if the writers can't make up their minds about wtf is the Horde supposed to be. Therefore we've had Thrall's "noble savages" (with the Forsaken as the proverbial elephant in the room), Garrosh's heavily industrialized and militarized Wehrmacht, Vol'jin's "noble savages, but not quite", and Sylvie's nu-Scourge.

It's as if they were throwing !@#$ to the wall to see what sticks.

[Khaza-R]

What? Out of the five Vanilla areas of faction conflict where the aggressor was known, Alliance was the aggressor in Alterac Valley, Mulgore, Durotar and the Barrens.

Is this a joke? Did you ever actually quest through vanilla? Killing farmers in Hillsbrad, attacking Dalaran civillians in Silverpine, killing forest creatures in Stonetalon to torture Night Elf PoWs.

There's one faction that is remarkably more evil than the other in Vanilla.

[Arrashi]

Is this a joke? Did you ever actually quest through vanilla? Killing farmers in Hillsbrad, attacking Dalaran civillians in Silverpine, killing forest creatures in Stonetalon to torture Night Elf PoWs.

There's one faction that is remarkably more evil than the other in Vanilla.

Those are really agressive civilians. Well armed too.

[Mehrunes]

Is this a joke? Did you ever actually quest through vanilla? Killing farmers in Hillsbrad, attacking Dalaran civillians in Silverpine, killing forest creatures in Stonetalon to torture Night Elf PoWs.

There's one faction that is remarkably more evil than the other in Vanilla.

Pray tell, which part of "where the aggressor was known" specifically has eluded you? Unless you're able to provide a source for Forsaken being the aggressor in Hillsbrad. In which case, I bid you good luck given how the quests are silent about it and the conflict is already ongoing by the time the player gets there. As for Silverpine, Kirin Tor expanding into territory claimed by the Forsaken out of nowhere and doing suspicious things to the ley lines aren't the innocent flowers you want to pretend they are.

[Wylyth1992]

And the part where almost all of its leaders betrayed the Horde and crawled to the Alliance at some point or another during BfA, sabotaging Horde's war campaign somewhere along the way. When the Horde is led by Alliance's sycophants it's no longer Horde, it's Alliance's vassal state.

Well, what would you do if your country was doing something that went against your values? Against the values that you joined said country for. Continuing to support something you disapprove of is not loyalty, its ass kissing. Remember, most of us didn't ask for this war, we were forced into it.

[Mehrunes]

Well, what would you do if your country was doing something that went against your values? Against the values that you joined said country for. Continuing to support something you disapprove of is not loyalty, its ass kissing. Remember, most of us didn't ask for this war, we were forced into it.

Not join an enemy of it? Or is it some kind of a binary thing all of a sudden? And please. Saurfang joined the Horde in the name of committing genocide against any and all opponents of the Orcs. When Thrall reformed it into the New Horde he still made it so that the Warchief was essentially a god of the Horde with their power being absolutely unchecked. Baine and all the others joined the Horde set up in that way willingly. And stark majority of the Horde stood by Sylvanas and her war even at the start of the cinematic ending the faction war.

[Grazrug]

Like....what the hell does that mean? So, because the Horde is trying to strive for peace, to not be genocidal assholes like the MoP and BfA versions were, its suddenly no longer the Horde? Thats a load of crap, the Horde is not defined by the damage it does. The Horde has always been about being a collection of outcasts, of underdogs. THAT is the Horde.

Nope. Horde being passive and spineless, lead by Anduin approved puppets makes the faction dead. Calia and Baine are the most prominent. But Thrall and Gazlowe are also part of the same problem.

[Miseration]

Nope. Horde being passive and spineless, lead by Anduin approved puppets makes the faction dead. Calia and Baine are the most prominent. But Thrall and Gazlowe are also part of the same problem.

ya I absolutely hate this "honor" bullshit. Baine is a quarter of the leader his Father was. Kind like Anduin. Varians ferocity made me love him.. especially in wrath when him and garrosh were always going at it.

[Grazrug]

Well, what would you do if your country was doing something that went against your values? Against the values that you joined said country for. Continuing to support something you disapprove of is not loyalty, its ass kissing. Remember, most of us didn't ask for this war, we were forced into it.

Wrong. Saurfang told you. The foundation of the horde was a lie. Horde never had honor nor loyalty. Just the commands of the warchief. Sorry to burst your bubble.

- - - Updated - - -

Those are really agressive civilians. Well armed too.

Those farmers, armed by Varian and stormwind in order to attack Andorhal, are just fake news too it seems.

[Aucald]

Wrong. Saurfang told you. The foundation of the horde was a lie. Horde never had honor nor loyalty. Just the commands of the warchief. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Saurfang also pointedly implied that was not a good thing by any stretch of the imagination, and that the Horde should aspire toward something better for the future.

[Trassk]

Love how the first four replies to the op was from people I have on my ignore list.

People here are very set in their ways, in regards to this kind of change, and your not change their view on that.

[Stormdash]

Like....what the hell does that mean? So, because the Horde is trying to strive for peace, to not be genocidal assholes like the MoP and BfA versions were, its suddenly no longer the Horde? Thats a load of crap, the Horde is not defined by the damage it does. The Horde has always been about being a collection of outcasts, of underdogs. THAT is the Horde.

This is vapid nonsense. Thrall didn't actively seek war, but he was still Warchief, and the Horde felt like something with a meaningful identity as the Horde.

A Horde that has no Warchief, has Alliance lore characters taking leadership roles of its races, basically shaking off the "band of outcasts" vibe, the "take assertive action" ethos in favor of "What Would the Humans Do", that's what is burying the Horde.

[Powerogue]

Can't really win. More warmongering warchiefs= We're just repeating the past, this is BS! No warmongering and no warchief = this is different, therefore it is BS!

It's as if the writers can't make up their minds about wtf is the Horde supposed to be. Therefore we've had Thrall's "noble savages" (with the Forsaken as the proverbial elephant in the room), Garrosh's heavily industrialized and militarized Wehrmacht, Vol'jin's "noble savages, but not quite", and Sylvie's nu-Scourge.

It's as if they were throwing !@#$ to the wall to see what sticks.

I mean it looks like we're pushing back in the "noble savages" direction while simultaneously addressing the forsaken as the elephant in the room with new storytelling branching off of their Dark Lady abandoning them that may eventually lead to them lining up closer to the Horde's morals. (But will hopefully be more interesting than simply "Calia takes over and they're nice now.")

[Syegfryed]

the horde was rooting for peace since thrall assumed they were only "warmongers" in cata-mop because the alliance started the war, and was fine with vol'jin

they never cease to be horde, the problem is not wanting peace, is HOW they are doing that, how things are handled, how the horde is in a shit state and how they fuck up all the horde elements for this be possible.

[Felixon]

What? Out of the five Vanilla areas of faction conflict where the aggressor was known, Alliance was the aggressor in Alterac Valley, Mulgore, Durotar and the Barrens.

I will have to disagree with your opinion here. Alterac Valley was not Horde's territory - the fact,that the Frostwolves settled there, doesn't mean,that it was their territory, so I would say,that it was a contested territory. There should be another question to be asked - what is the fight about? While the Frostwolves settled there and lived peacefully, the dwarves decided,that they have to go there and turn the valley into another excavation site, so, if you ask me who is more right,then I would say the Frostwolves.

What happened in Mulgore?

Durotar - I think,that those Kul Tirans at that point are presented as the remains of Daelin's Expedition and at that point,Kul Tiras was not a part of the Alliance anymore,so i'd say,that they were on their own.