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  1. #341
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeymootwo View Post
    It always bugged me back in Wrath that Sylvanas of all people wasn't there to help take down Arthas during the actual fight. Nothing would have stopped her from being there.
    I have to think that they said screw it and didn’t feel like adding any more npcs to the fight. I mean they have people show up all over icc when clearing it but when you get to the lich king it’s just one old man? I mean come on.

  2. #342
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Call me when Baine even appeared in any story that wasn't about him trying to sabotage the current Horde Warchief on behalf of Anduin/Jaina.
    As our Fathers before us is probably the only story about Baine without any Alliance.
    Yet it shows him helping out the Quillboar with water, which enables them to keep launching attacks towards Mulgore so...
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Call me when Baine even appeared in any story that wasn't about him trying to sabotage the current Horde Warchief on behalf of Anduin/Jaina. The Horde Council is a narrative dead end. It exists so the writers don't have to write Horde and there's no bickering to be had since all participants think the same.
    We just went through an entire expansion worth of expensive cinematics focusing on the Horde story, and "so the writers don't have to write Horde". Come on, I expect better from you. They have openly expressed admiration for GoT, which is LOADED with bickering councils.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  4. #344
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    As our Fathers before us is probably the only story about Baine without any Alliance.
    Yet it shows him helping out the Quillboar with water, which enables them to keep launching attacks towards Mulgore so...
    I loved the fact that baine first reaction to deep-dwelling cannibalistic albino mutant quillboars is "Lets use some diplomacy".

  5. #345
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I loved the fact that baine first reaction to deep-dwelling cannibalistic albino mutant quillboars is "Lets use some diplomacy".
    The weird part is that it somehow worked

    For a while at least
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    We just went through an entire expansion worth of expensive cinematics focusing on the Horde story, and "so the writers don't have to write Horde". Come on, I expect better from you. They have openly expressed admiration for GoT, which is LOADED with bickering councils.
    When in any of those cinematics did any two characters we're supposed to like show any bit of disagreement. Never. They're all the same at the end. The proof is in Wrath and Legion with their zero Horde presence vs the end boss and in the expansion where we killed the entire old WC2 cast, the way we're likely to do the OG Forsaken leader next expansion.

    @Maljinwo

    The quillboar thanked him for his humanity and showing what a nice guy he was compared to Garrosh by offing the escapees from Taurajo and attacking his people first thing in Mulgore. If only he'd listened to his dad and that old sage Grom and just axed those freaks.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-10-16 at 04:19 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  7. #347
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    The weird part is that it somehow worked

    For a while at least
    Baine spiced that water with some "human potential".

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    When in any of those cinematics did any two characters we're supposed to like show any bit of disagreement. Never. They're all the same at the end. The proof is in Wrath and Legion with their zero Horde presence vs the end boss and in the expansion where we killed the entire old WC2 cast, the way we're likely to do the OG Forsaken leader next expansion.
    People who are united in a common cause now are guaranteed to be in perfect accord forever, because Blizzard doesn't like stirring shit. Okay. I could add how vocally the Hordies here slam any plot that isn't "kill blue guiz" and suggest that might be part of why there's little Horde presence there, along with being able to point out "heroics" to Alliance tired of being the whipping boy, but I'm sure that will just be dismissed too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    People who are united in a common cause now are guaranteed to be in perfect accord forever, because Blizzard doesn't like stirring shit. Okay. I could add how vocally the Hordies here slam any plot that isn't "kill blue guiz" and suggest that might be part of why there's little Horde presence there, along with being able to point out "heroics" to Alliance tired of being the whipping boy, but I'm sure that will just be dismissed too.
    You don't need to strain yourself to find something for orcs to do vs. Gul'dan, the guy who's core to fucking up the orcs and turning them into what they are now. Or KJ, the guy who turned them into his tools. You don't need to try hard to get the Forsaken or blood elves a piece of Arthas instead of or alongside of one of the original Alliance Knights of the Silver Hand. That doesn't make the faction and racial conflict any less essential to having an actual story going on, mind, but neither of the two example expansions required that of its Horde appearances. They just needed any Horde appearances whatsoever. The current state of affairs is a condition to keep making these expansions for all time since the Horde and Alliance align on virtually every issue, except on those where the Horde has no position or lacks a character to push it. The Alliance even keeps its Warchief while the Horde ditches theirs, to the chagrin of both factions' fanbases.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  10. #350
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    When in any of those cinematics did any two characters we're supposed to like show any bit of disagreement. Never. They're all the same at the end. The proof is in Wrath and Legion with their zero Horde presence vs the end boss and in the expansion where we killed the entire old WC2 cast, the way we're likely to do the OG Forsaken leader next expansion.
    Who was an alliance rep in wrath? The only person who comes to mind is race traitor Neutral tirion but he’s not alliance.

    Unless you mean bran?

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Yeah sorry, skipped most of this after another rendition of "Anduin is Baine's Master". It's an absurd idea and it does not make the rest of what you said very convincing.
    The orc hating Tauren who: Mailed his horns to Anduin, let his people be slaughtered by the Alliance, breaks oaths to the Horde repeatedly, robs his people of their right to defense, kills Horde without regret but throws a fit when killing Alliance invaders and only intervenes when the Alliance is in danger is somehow not an Alliance plant, ok now I know you are a Horde Hater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    You are halve right and halve wrong in your final point at least. I am pro Horde, but not your Horde apparently. I am absolutely against a Horde of warmongering idiots led by a genocidal psychopath. This verson of the Horde is sooooooooooo over and done, for the second time. I would like to see a constructive Horde instead of a destructive one for once. Hence why I do think the new leadership council is an interesting idea, why I find Calia might help the Forsaken and why I am glad Thrall is back. These changes can actually create something interesting.
    You literally ignored our arguments even when we directly linked you Garrosh's men saving the tauren in Cataclysm whilst Baine was sitting on his fat ass.

    And you whined in the past about how the developers are biased towards the Horde. Its clear you just hate the Horde and only like Baine because he stinks at being Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    This view is not shared by many of the Horde playerbase, including yourself I guess, who either complain about every last one of these new leading figures, pray Sylvanas comes to deliver them from Calia, or blatantly call those folks "Traitors to the Horde", because they SAVED YOU FROM BEING FED TO DEATH BY YOUR WARCHIEF...
    Citation needed, you don't represent the Horde and polls here say otherwise about the Horde playerbase's view. You are clearly in no position to talk about the Horde and know nothing about it.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You don't need to strain yourself to find something for orcs to do vs. Gul'dan, the guy who's core to fucking up the orcs and turning them into what they are now. Or KJ, the guy who turned them into his tools. You don't need to try hard to get the Forsaken or blood elves a piece of Arthas instead of or alongside of one of the original Alliance Knights of the Silver Hand. That doesn't make the faction and racial conflict any less essential to having an actual story going on, mind, but neither of the two example expansions required that of its Horde appearances. They just needed any Horde appearances whatsoever. The current state of affairs is a condition to keep making these expansions for all time since the Horde and Alliance align on virtually every issue, except on those where the Horde has no position or lacks a character to push it. The Alliance even keeps its Warchief while the Horde ditches theirs, to the chagrin of both factions' fanbases.
    Where did I say "The Horde shouldn't have a presence" or "There's nothing tying the Horde to PVE stories"? I said that the Horde fanbase tends to be dismissive of such stories as pointless, and instead of demanding improvement, they prefer "rawr kill Alliance" stories. Further, the Alliance takes something of a lead (usually by our characters going neutral, never to return) on Evil Lord Peanut Butter Sandwich stories so Blizz can pretend we have a story other than reacting in dismay to the latest threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Yeah sorry, skipped most of this after another rendition of "Anduin is Baine's Master". It's an absurd idea and it does not make the rest of what you said very convincing.
    The word Anduin wasn't mentioned even once by me in that post. So speaking of not very convincing things, the way you tried to deflect what I said and avoid replying to it isn't convincing in the least.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    You are halve right and halve wrong in your final point at least. I am pro Horde, but not your Horde apparently. I am absolutely against a Horde of warmongering idiots led by a genocidal psychopath. This verson of the Horde is sooooooooooo over and done, for the second time. I would like to see a constructive Horde instead of a destructive one for once. Hence why I do think the new leadership council is an interesting idea, why I find Calia might help the Forsaken and why I am glad Thrall is back. These changes can actually create something interesting.
    Yeah, promoting the idea of Alliance outright occupying the Horde is totes legit pro Horde Again, who are you trying to convince? Because just as in the first paragraph, you're not convincing in the slightest. And yeah, a bunch of Alliance lovers that don't disagree on anything is totes bound to create something interesting. Because nothing drives a story forward like stagnation and lack of conflict. It is known.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    This view is not shared by many of the Horde playerbase, including yourself I guess, who either complain about every last one of these new leading figures, pray Sylvanas comes to deliver them from Calia, or blatantly call those folks "Traitors to the Horde", because they SAVED YOU FROM BEING FED TO DEATH BY YOUR WARCHIEF...
    Basically all the Horde playerbase atm does is wallow in self-pity and whine and would rather see the Horde destroyed then it being led by Baine and Thrall, it is quite ridiculous and childish, but also somewhat amusing.
    So when I express my distrust towards the Horde it is more of the people then of the characters. I have high hopes for the new leadership council
    Try again. The reason Baine et al are called traitors to the Horde is because they:
    1. sabotaged Horde's war campaign
    2. killed members of the Horde to achieve the above
    3. allied with an enemy of the Horde.

    Which is, you know, textbook treason. And none of that had anything to do with saving the Horde from being fed to death because last time I checked they didn't know about it. Which, imagine that, means it couldn't have factored into their decision making. Instead what contributed to their decision making is their Alliance sycophancy, delusions about events (vide your example of Baine whining about Sylvanas abandoning Saurfang to die at Lordearon when in reality it was Saufang disobeying the order to retreat) and/or rampant hypocrisy and inconsistency.

    On a side note, the only new leading figure in the Horde is (going to be) Calia, so I'm not sure why you're using a plural there. And since Calia has fuck all to do with the Forsaken thematically and is basically a female version of Anduin, including his monumental naivety that remains even after she died, gee, whyever would anyone dislike the prospect of her leading the Forsaken.

    Not that I know how pointing that out or calling spade a spade in regards to Baine and company constitutes childish and ridiculous wallowing in self pity, but whatever lets you feel smug.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Who was an alliance rep in wrath? The only person who comes to mind is race traitor Neutral tirion but he’s not alliance.

    Unless you mean bran?
    Tirion isn't Alliance, but he's Alliance-coded. Which is bad for both factions - Horde don't get a story for them and Alliance lose characters and identity to someone who isn't really theirs and is watered down to appeal to the broadest possible audience. @Feanoro covers this in his post. As for the Horde audience, yeah, the Horde generally enjoys faction war stories slightly more than the Alliance, but when we hit Mists station, both end up fucked over, just in different ways.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  15. #355
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tirion isn't Alliance, but he's Alliance-coded. Which is bad for both factions - Horde don't get a story for them and Alliance lose characters and identity to someone who isn't really theirs and is watered down to appeal to the broadest possible audience. @Feanoro covers this in his post. As for the Horde audience, yeah, the Horde generally enjoys faction war stories slightly more than the Alliance, but when we hit Mists station, both end up fucked over, just in different ways.
    I can’t see how he’s alliance coded other then being a human. Every time tiron shows up all he spouts is neutral drivel and he hangs out with undead cows and orcs. I don’t think tiron does any thing alliance aligned in all of wow unless I’m forgetting something.

    Hell I’d say the scarlet crusade is more alliance code as they atlest want the forsaken dead instead of over for tea.

  16. #356
    Nope.

    Very much alive, and this is hopefully the foundation for Horde no longer being the only aggressors whenever Blizzard can't be bothered to bring out original ideas.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I can’t see how he’s alliance coded other then being a human. Every time tiron shows up all he spouts is neutral drivel and he hangs out with undead cows and orcs. I don’t think tiron does any thing alliance aligned in all of wow unless I’m forgetting something.

    Hell I’d say the scarlet crusade is more alliance code as they atlest want the forsaken dead instead of over for tea.
    He's a human paladin of the original order of human paladins in the Second War. It's this tolerance of undead, orcs, etc. that is the watering down I mentioned, but Tirion is basically a proxy for the fact that playable Lordaeronian living humans who suffered from Arthas directly don't exist, but a righteous paladin fighting Arthas still 'fits'.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  18. #358
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    He's a human paladin of the original order of human paladins in the Second War. It's this tolerance of undead, orcs, etc. that is the watering down I mentioned, but Tirion is basically a proxy for the fact that playable Lordaeronian living humans who suffered from Arthas directly don't exist, but a righteous paladin fighting Arthas still 'fits'.
    Your just describing the scarlet crusade with less murder. None of that has been alliance coded since classic launched and the argent dawn has only gotten further from alliance since then.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Your just describing the scarlet crusade with less murder. None of that has been alliance coded since classic launched and the argent dawn has only gotten further from alliance since then.
    By Alliance coded I don't mean part of the Alliance, I mean that it occupies themes and narrative space that should belong to the Alliance, but isn't. In this case, the heroic human paladin from Lordaeron wanting to smite Arthas is a quintessentially Alliance fantasy that no Horde race shares, but it's made neutral.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  20. #360
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    By Alliance coded I don't mean part of the Alliance, I mean that it occupies themes and narrative space that should belong to the Alliance, but isn't. In this case, the heroic human paladin from Lordaeron wanting to smite Arthas is a quintessentially Alliance fantasy that no Horde race shares, but it's made neutral.
    I get what you mean the problem is being a human pally smiting evil left being alliance Only with classic.

    I mean sure the horde don’t have any humans but they do have a bunch of people who want Arthas dead just as much if not more and they even have generic Pally’s since the end of tbc.

    That only leaves the fact that he’s human as any thing alliance related.

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