Horde Striving Not To Be Warmongering = Horde Dead?

[Gann Stonespire]

I get what you mean the problem is being a human pally smiting evil left being alliance Only with classic.

I mean sure the horde don’t have any humans but they do have a bunch of people who want Arthas dead just as much if not more and they even have generic Pally’s since the end of tbc.

That only leaves the fact that he’s human as any thing alliance related.

* From a class that was exclusively Alliance only two expansions ago.
* Longtime member of the Alliance. True, he's former but Thrall was former Horde in Cata and Alliance players raised a stink about that.
* founding member of an Alliance order.
* Looks like a traditional Alliance Paladin.

Medivh would be a case where his humanity would be the only Alliance thing about him, not Tirion.

[allawyn]

No, it actually doesn't. Sorry.

Anduin never had authority over anybody in the Horde and to, repeatedly, claim otherwise is just lying at this point.

There's nothing to red herring about the Horde leadership. What, they're red herring the entire Horde just following Anduin in 8.3 out of nowhere? And now you're trying to claim the Horde forming a council is because of the Alliance? We have the direct dialogue of that event lol. Stop being so disingenuous.

So you are one of those for whom anything you disagree with is a lie? I've actually pointed why you are wrong, with points you haven't even tried to rebut. Ad-hominem attacks are even a list logical fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

You need to look in the mirror. And we are done here.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

* From a class that was exclusively Alliance only two expansions ago.
* Longtime member of the Alliance. True, he's former but Thrall was former Horde in Cata and Alliance players raised a stink about that.
* founding member of an Alliance order.
* Looks like a traditional Alliance Paladin.

Medivh would be a case where his humanity would be the only Alliance thing about him, not Tirion.

The distinction isn’t only between the alliance and horde when talking about neural forces though. The scarlet crusade and argent dawn both had pally’s and there was even a scourge pally AND a founder of the silver hand. They might have been a mostly human thing but they weren't a mostly alliance thing and then the horde got them to and even did away with the cool blood Knight difference at the end of tbc.

Tiron hasn’t acted as alliance at all in wow it self as far as I know. Thrall on the other hand was flat out leading the horde for classic-wrath and even in game did characters think he was still horde while tiron was kicked out pre wow I think? I need to brush up it’s been to long.

Said order splintered into three or four different ones and no one says the scarlet crusade is alliance.

As far as looks go every character looks like there part of X faction even if they were never in it that’s just how the races work.

Tiron is just like khadgar he hasn’t had any thing pointing him to one faction over the other for his whole time in wow other then his race.

[Super Dickmann]

I get what you mean the problem is being a human pally smiting evil left being alliance Only with classic.

I mean sure the horde don’t have any humans but they do have a bunch of people who want Arthas dead just as much if not more and they even have generic Pally’s since the end of tbc.

That only leaves the fact that he’s human as any thing alliance related.

Both factions had groups that wanted Arthas dead more than others and both had their narrative role junked in favor of neutral equivalents. The human pallies, as discussed, got Tirion. Forsaken had the KotEB who are the Forsaken, except with all races and heavier armor. Complete with banshee possession quests, ends justify the means mentality, etc. And the blood elves got jack.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Both factions had groups that wanted Arthas dead more than others and both had their narrative role junked in favor of neutral equivalents. The human pallies, as discussed, got Tirion. Forsaken had the KotEB who are the Forsaken, except with all races and heavier armor. Complete with banshee possession quests, ends justify the means mentality, etc. And the blood elves got jack.

I can agree that both sides got screwed by blizzard putting something that superficially looks similar but isn’t in there spot.

Hell the blood elf’s really get screwed as they have a whole wing dedicated to them yet not a one shows up.

[FAILoZOFF]

We can't have an "evil" faction in RPG now can we?

[Yoshingo]

So you are one of those for whom anything you disagree with is a lie? I've actually pointed why you are wrong, with points you haven't even tried to rebut. Ad-hominem attacks are even a list logical fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

You need to look in the mirror. And we are done here.

There's nothing to refuse when you make a false-on-its-face claim like Anduin has authority over anybody in the Horde, my dude.

That's just straight up, factually, a lie. But kudos for using your ad hominems that you're trying to claim about me

[Reinhart11]

I get what you mean the problem is being a human pally smiting evil left being alliance Only with classic.

I mean sure the horde don’t have any humans but they do have a bunch of people who want Arthas dead just as much if not more and they even have generic Pally’s since the end of tbc.

That only leaves the fact that he’s human as any thing alliance related.

I mean, Blizzard could have contrasted the human Paladin wanting to smite Arthas with a Blood Knight(or an awesome new Blood Mage character after Kael'thas kicked the bucket but typical Blood Mages of the Sin'dorei don't seem to even exist anymore) of the blood elves for example. If they hadn't changed the nature of the Blood Elves from TFT, that could have been interesting, because back than Blood Knights were not just human Paladins with pointy ears.

Forsaken at least got some spotlight with Arthas at the Wrathgate, although they weren't really Forsaken anymore. And of course Sylvanas in the Halls of Reflection. But all of this were pretty much small side stories compared to the whole neutral Argent Dawn Tirion Fordring story and that absolutely awful Tournament in Icecrown, which only could be realised because Arthas had the most idiotic plan to kill off the heroes that he could ever come up with.

[Feanoro]

Sure we can, as long as it is a clearly designated evil faction. I mean when I pick Dorn in BG2EE the first thing he asks me to do is crash a paladin's wedding and kill everyone in it for the lulz. I know exactly what I am signing up for. But if you roll a tauren nothing in your character intro or you starting experience tells you how you are playing a faction that cheers at genocide.
And really, when you only have two factions, it's really not a good idea to make one the evil one. Make a game with three or more for that.

Therein lies one of the problems. Much like Blizz trying to appeal to everyone with different modes, minigames, and so on, they try to make the Horde appeal to both the "noble monsters" crowd and the "evil Horde" fans, and it simply doesn't work because they're incompatible. You don't halfway eat babies or only partially twirl a mustache.

[Soon-TM]

Therein lies one of the problems. Much like Blizz trying to appeal to everyone with different modes, minigames, and so on, they try to make the Horde appeal to both the "noble monsters" crowd and the "evil Horde" fans, and it simply doesn't work because they're incompatible. You don't halfway eat babies or only partially twirl a mustache.

That's my thought as well. I'm fine with 100% evil factions, as long as things are clear from the beginning. For example, when you choose the Empire in SW, you know exactly what you are signing up for. But this MASSIVE evilbatsmacking of BfA makes me to not want to play anymore.

[KrakHed]

The distinction isn’t only between the alliance and horde when talking about neural forces though. The scarlet crusade and argent dawn both had pally’s and there was even a scourge pally AND a founder of the silver hand. They might have been a mostly human thing but they weren't a mostly alliance thing and then the horde got them to and even did away with the cool blood Knight difference at the end of tbc.

Tiron hasn’t acted as alliance at all in wow it self as far as I know. Thrall on the other hand was flat out leading the horde for classic-wrath and even in game did characters think he was still horde while tiron was kicked out pre wow I think? I need to brush up it’s been to long.

Said order splintered into three or four different ones and no one says the scarlet crusade is alliance.

As far as looks go every character looks like there part of X faction even if they were never in it that’s just how the races work.

Tiron is just like khadgar he hasn’t had any thing pointing him to one faction over the other for his whole time in wow other then his race.

Let's not be be daft here. The Scarlet Crusade very much is Alliance-y in themes and aesthetic, just as the vanilla Dark Horde and all the adjective Hordes are still Horde-y. They are sort of a dark twist on the factions.

While the Argent Dawn and Crusade has members of all races in its ranks, its history is overwhelmingly tied to the Alliance, as are its themes, aesthetic, and architecture. A Knight of Stormwind feels much more in place there than an Orcish Raider. If you started working for a bunch of barbarians with axes, spiked huts, and so on, led primarily by Orcs and espousing beliefs rooted in Orcish culture, the experience would be very Horde-y. Even if any race could roll a Warrior.

Same goes for the Cenarion Circle. They aren't a strictly Night Elf organization, but that flavoring is so intense that one would lose all credibility by ignoring it.

Anyhow, what's everyone talking about? Someone feels there's too much Alliance flavoring in neutral content, or too much Horde flavoring in hostile content?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Let's not be be daft here. The Scarlet Crusade very much is Alliance-y in themes and aesthetic, just as the vanilla Dark Horde and all the adjective Hordes are still Horde-y. They are sort of a dark twist on the factions.

While the Argent Dawn and Crusade has members of all races in its ranks, its history is overwhelmingly tied to the Alliance, as are its themes, aesthetic, and architecture. A Knight of Stormwind feels much more in place there than an Orcish Raider. If you started working for a bunch of barbarians with axes, spiked huts, and so on, led primarily by Orcs and espousing beliefs rooted in Orcish culture, the experience would be very Horde-y. Even if any race could roll a Warrior.

Same goes for the Cenarion Circle. They aren't a strictly Night Elf organization, but that flavoring is so intense that one would lose all credibility by ignoring it.

Anyhow, what's everyone talking about? Someone feels there's too much Alliance flavoring in neutral content, or too much Horde flavoring in hostile content?

I don't agree that all you need to fit one faction is to be the same race and use that races building material but if you do i can't really contest that as they are in fact humans and do infact use bricks.

[Wylyth1992]

Why do people keep saying "race traitor"?

[Jetstream]

It's World of WARcraft, not peacecraft

I super promise we'll still be fighting plenty of wars, even if we don't fight each other.

[wushootaki]

And it's well known that they just threw together Alliance NPCs for early questing because they did Horde second and had more of a time crunch, but don't let that stop you from flat out calling another poster a racist.

If you read what I wrote, I said he bought into the Alliance racism kool-aid, which is by design. And no, those alliance weren't added to those quests because they were in crunch. It's designed that way for a reason. Horde experience is meant to feel persecuted and the underdog. Alliance characters have always had a racist side (see: Garithos), and it fills the narrative of the stereotypical good hero who attacks evil creatures. Those evil creatures just don't belong to the horde, though the game makes little mention of that to drive the narrative idea of Alliance defending its land from the Horde, and Horde being persecuted.

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Cali has never been alliance they go out of there way to point that out in before the storm. Calling her alliance because she’s friend with anduin is like calling wrathion alliance.

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Your putting to much thought into game mechanics. I’m not saying your wrong but just because an npc is red or green doesn’t mean it works that way in the lore.

Lore-wise the Kul Tirans chased the Orcs across a sea while they were fleeing their continent, simply because they couldn't let their hatred for orcs and lust for vengeance subside. This doesn't happen in WoW, it happens in WC3. The kul tiras in durotar are leftover from that, and along with the dwarves, serve a purpose to make the Horde feel like the underdog and persecuted as early as level 5.

On the other hand, Alliance are meant to feel the hero, protecting their land from evil monsters. And the choice of those npcs being green, yellow, or red is a narrative choice. The shatterspear that later showed up in Cataclysm for Darkshore are green to Horde players, making them 100% Horde aligned npcs. The frostmane trolls are not. The Dragonmaw in Wetlands were not, until Cataclysm narrative brought the ones from Twilight Highlands into the Horde's fold.

Again, this serves to fit the narrative that Alliance are racists (See: Garithos, an example of previous racism from Alliance in a previous game) and to make the Horde feel persecuted.

Its set up in a way for Alliance players to go "Orc! ME SMASH!" without questioning what the orc belongs to, whereas the Horde get narratives that showcase that all those orcs in Burning Steppes and Rend Blackhand are part of a schism that split off when Thrall took over, and are no longer horde. Same with the orcs in Desolace.

Its all done purposefully.

[Varodoc]

Lore-wise the Kul Tirans chased the Orcs across a sea while they were fleeing their continent, simply because they couldn't let their hatred for orcs and lust for vengeance subside.

And, you know, because the Horde had violated the Alliance Internment Act, annihilated the Alliance garrison at Southshore, hijacked several Alliance vessels, and plunged southern Lordaeron into a state of conflict.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Its all done purposefully.

There are also friendly yellow troggs and wolfs in the alliance starting area, this isn’t done because there neutral and are looking for peace it’s just a game mechanic.

The horde got screwed when it came to dev time for classic so they probably just took some alliance mobs and didn’t bother to change the tags.

[Feanoro]

And, you know, because the Horde had violated the Alliance Internment Act, annihilated the Alliance garrison at Southshore, hijacked several Alliance vessels, and plunged southern Lordaeron into a state of conflict.

But hey, just because they burned down Stormwind and went on a nigh unstoppable killing rampage with the clear goal of exterminating everything not-orc, that doesn't mean we should do the sane thing and make sure they're not gathering their strength for another try. After all, protecting your own people from genocide is racist. /drippingsarcasm

[Shiza]

And, you know, because the Horde had violated the Alliance Internment Act, annihilated the Alliance garrison at Southshore, hijacked several Alliance vessels, and plunged southern Lordaeron into a state of conflict.

You forgot that the conflict they caused was also a contributing factor for the rise of the scourge and the downfall of Lordaeron, Quel'thalas and Dalaran. It was the Hordes aggression against the Alliance which forced Lordaerons focus attention away from the Plague.

[Varodoc]

You forgot that the conflict they caused was also a contributing factor for the rise of the scourge and the downfall of Lordaeron, Quel'thalas and Dalaran. It was the Hordes aggression against the Alliance which forced Lordaerons focus attention away from the Plague.

This is very true and a point that is often glossed over. The Horde's rebellion started by Thrall forced the Alliance of Lordaeron to divert their attention solely on the south against the orcs, leaving the north defenseless and ripe for the taking by the Lich King. We can see in the opening cinematic how the High Command of the Alliance dismissed any claim of a plague in the north, because they were too busy trying to contain the threat posed by the orcs in the south. We could say that Thrall was an indirect cause that led to the downfall of Lordaeron, because if he had never started his rebellion, the Alliance would have been able to bolster the defences of the north against the Scourge and the Cult of the Damned.