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  1. #381
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    He's a human paladin of the original order of human paladins in the Second War. It's this tolerance of undead, orcs, etc. that is the watering down I mentioned, but Tirion is basically a proxy for the fact that playable Lordaeronian living humans who suffered from Arthas directly don't exist, but a righteous paladin fighting Arthas still 'fits'.
    Your just describing the scarlet crusade with less murder. None of that has been alliance coded since classic launched and the argent dawn has only gotten further from alliance since then.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Your just describing the scarlet crusade with less murder. None of that has been alliance coded since classic launched and the argent dawn has only gotten further from alliance since then.
    By Alliance coded I don't mean part of the Alliance, I mean that it occupies themes and narrative space that should belong to the Alliance, but isn't. In this case, the heroic human paladin from Lordaeron wanting to smite Arthas is a quintessentially Alliance fantasy that no Horde race shares, but it's made neutral.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    By Alliance coded I don't mean part of the Alliance, I mean that it occupies themes and narrative space that should belong to the Alliance, but isn't. In this case, the heroic human paladin from Lordaeron wanting to smite Arthas is a quintessentially Alliance fantasy that no Horde race shares, but it's made neutral.
    I get what you mean the problem is being a human pally smiting evil left being alliance Only with classic.

    I mean sure the horde don’t have any humans but they do have a bunch of people who want Arthas dead just as much if not more and they even have generic Pally’s since the end of tbc.

    That only leaves the fact that he’s human as any thing alliance related.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I get what you mean the problem is being a human pally smiting evil left being alliance Only with classic.

    I mean sure the horde don’t have any humans but they do have a bunch of people who want Arthas dead just as much if not more and they even have generic Pally’s since the end of tbc.

    That only leaves the fact that he’s human as any thing alliance related.
    * From a class that was exclusively Alliance only two expansions ago.
    * Longtime member of the Alliance. True, he's former but Thrall was former Horde in Cata and Alliance players raised a stink about that.
    * founding member of an Alliance order.
    * Looks like a traditional Alliance Paladin.

    Medivh would be a case where his humanity would be the only Alliance thing about him, not Tirion.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshingo View Post
    No, it actually doesn't. Sorry.

    Anduin never had authority over anybody in the Horde and to, repeatedly, claim otherwise is just lying at this point.

    There's nothing to red herring about the Horde leadership. What, they're red herring the entire Horde just following Anduin in 8.3 out of nowhere? And now you're trying to claim the Horde forming a council is because of the Alliance? We have the direct dialogue of that event lol. Stop being so disingenuous.
    So you are one of those for whom anything you disagree with is a lie? I've actually pointed why you are wrong, with points you haven't even tried to rebut. Ad-hominem attacks are even a list logical fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    You need to look in the mirror. And we are done here.

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    * From a class that was exclusively Alliance only two expansions ago.
    * Longtime member of the Alliance. True, he's former but Thrall was former Horde in Cata and Alliance players raised a stink about that.
    * founding member of an Alliance order.
    * Looks like a traditional Alliance Paladin.

    Medivh would be a case where his humanity would be the only Alliance thing about him, not Tirion.
    The distinction isn’t only between the alliance and horde when talking about neural forces though. The scarlet crusade and argent dawn both had pally’s and there was even a scourge pally AND a founder of the silver hand. They might have been a mostly human thing but they weren't a mostly alliance thing and then the horde got them to and even did away with the cool blood Knight difference at the end of tbc.

    Tiron hasn’t acted as alliance at all in wow it self as far as I know. Thrall on the other hand was flat out leading the horde for classic-wrath and even in game did characters think he was still horde while tiron was kicked out pre wow I think? I need to brush up it’s been to long.

    Said order splintered into three or four different ones and no one says the scarlet crusade is alliance.

    As far as looks go every character looks like there part of X faction even if they were never in it that’s just how the races work.

    Tiron is just like khadgar he hasn’t had any thing pointing him to one faction over the other for his whole time in wow other then his race.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I get what you mean the problem is being a human pally smiting evil left being alliance Only with classic.

    I mean sure the horde don’t have any humans but they do have a bunch of people who want Arthas dead just as much if not more and they even have generic Pally’s since the end of tbc.

    That only leaves the fact that he’s human as any thing alliance related.
    Both factions had groups that wanted Arthas dead more than others and both had their narrative role junked in favor of neutral equivalents. The human pallies, as discussed, got Tirion. Forsaken had the KotEB who are the Forsaken, except with all races and heavier armor. Complete with banshee possession quests, ends justify the means mentality, etc. And the blood elves got jack.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  8. #388
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Both factions had groups that wanted Arthas dead more than others and both had their narrative role junked in favor of neutral equivalents. The human pallies, as discussed, got Tirion. Forsaken had the KotEB who are the Forsaken, except with all races and heavier armor. Complete with banshee possession quests, ends justify the means mentality, etc. And the blood elves got jack.
    I can agree that both sides got screwed by blizzard putting something that superficially looks similar but isn’t in there spot.

    Hell the blood elf’s really get screwed as they have a whole wing dedicated to them yet not a one shows up.

  9. #389
    We can't have an "evil" faction in RPG now can we?

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by allawyn View Post
    So you are one of those for whom anything you disagree with is a lie? I've actually pointed why you are wrong, with points you haven't even tried to rebut. Ad-hominem attacks are even a list logical fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    You need to look in the mirror. And we are done here.
    There's nothing to refuse when you make a false-on-its-face claim like Anduin has authority over anybody in the Horde, my dude.

    That's just straight up, factually, a lie. But kudos for using your ad hominems that you're trying to claim about me

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    We can't have an "evil" faction in RPG now can we?
    Sure we can, as long as it is a clearly designated evil faction. I mean when I pick Dorn in BG2EE the first thing he asks me to do is crash a paladin's wedding and kill everyone in it for the lulz. I know exactly what I am signing up for. But if you roll a tauren nothing in your character intro or you starting experience tells you how you are playing a faction that cheers at genocide.
    And really, when you only have two factions, it's really not a good idea to make one the evil one. Make a game with three or more for that.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I get what you mean the problem is being a human pally smiting evil left being alliance Only with classic.

    I mean sure the horde don’t have any humans but they do have a bunch of people who want Arthas dead just as much if not more and they even have generic Pally’s since the end of tbc.

    That only leaves the fact that he’s human as any thing alliance related.
    I mean, Blizzard could have contrasted the human Paladin wanting to smite Arthas with a Blood Knight(or an awesome new Blood Mage character after Kael'thas kicked the bucket but typical Blood Mages of the Sin'dorei don't seem to even exist anymore) of the blood elves for example. If they hadn't changed the nature of the Blood Elves from TFT, that could have been interesting, because back than Blood Knights were not just human Paladins with pointy ears.

    Forsaken at least got some spotlight with Arthas at the Wrathgate, although they weren't really Forsaken anymore. And of course Sylvanas in the Halls of Reflection. But all of this were pretty much small side stories compared to the whole neutral Argent Dawn Tirion Fordring story and that absolutely awful Tournament in Icecrown, which only could be realised because Arthas had the most idiotic plan to kill off the heroes that he could ever come up with.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Sure we can, as long as it is a clearly designated evil faction. I mean when I pick Dorn in BG2EE the first thing he asks me to do is crash a paladin's wedding and kill everyone in it for the lulz. I know exactly what I am signing up for. But if you roll a tauren nothing in your character intro or you starting experience tells you how you are playing a faction that cheers at genocide.
    And really, when you only have two factions, it's really not a good idea to make one the evil one. Make a game with three or more for that.
    Therein lies one of the problems. Much like Blizz trying to appeal to everyone with different modes, minigames, and so on, they try to make the Horde appeal to both the "noble monsters" crowd and the "evil Horde" fans, and it simply doesn't work because they're incompatible. You don't halfway eat babies or only partially twirl a mustache.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

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