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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkol View Post
    Reminder that Shadow Priests *should* be terrible single target, or at least near the bottom in relation to every other spec. DoT specs should never be able to compete with other classes for top dps on 1 target, and right now they're near the top, and far and away the best spread dot dps.
    no every spec should be able to compete at single target no matter what, balance should always be targeted at single target as most of the time aoe damage is just extra padding that many classes benefit from, but blizzard are so useless at class balance they can never keep the classes within each other, a bad player playing the best single target spec shouldnt be able to beat a playing playing his best just because his class is better with adds.
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  2. #82
    I actually agree with the idea that all the classes should be more or less balanced around a single target DPS race, and that Add damage shouldn't be factored into how well they can drill down a single target. It's fine to have some classes excel in small windows at one particular thing - ie some classes have better burst, or some classes deal more damage against high or low targets, etc... but as a general rule, if you need people to focus down a particular target, I think that all classes should be able to do this without needing specific classes to do it. Mind you, this is in reference to the current game and its many modes of difficulty leading up to mythic progression.

    If we're talking about vanilla, then no I don't want to see this at all. I'd rather seem specialists who are good at some things and not others in that scenario.

    But in current WoW, where people are regularly "dumped" out of the raid because they are bad at something and another class is better, I don't think that needs to be the design philosophy. They are trying to push WOW as an e-sport lately, so I think there needs to be a different mentality going into it.

    Of course i also think it's fine for some classes to be better at ST than others, and I also think it's fine for Spriests to be a bit lower than classes that can't multi-dot or multi-target. Just not "drastically" so. As a general rule if I were designing the game I'd have a set single target goal for most every class - where I want them to fall int he spectrum. Then I would tune every raid boss below mythic level to hit the "average" of that class range in terms of required raid dps - such that if you stacked a raid to benefit from classes that are better at certain bosses than others, it would be very easy for the raid team to overcome it. At the mythic level, I'd tune bosses expecting raids to do that, but anything below that I'd pretty much expect people to just be taking whatever raid members they were fortunate enough to get.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    I've always thought an easy way to balance both DoT and HoT based classes would be to simply make it so that the more targets they have spells on, the less damage/healing they do. So instead of doing 100% damage on two-four targets, it's 90/80/70/60% each. You're still doing a lot more damage when extra targets are around but not the crazy amount that they can currently do. Same for druids, I know this thread is about Spriests but Druids have and likely always will be the top M+ class due to their ability to stack HoTs.

    Am I wrong here? Is there something I'm missing that would make this absolutely kill the class in general? It seems like an easy fix to prevent them from getting out of hand on multi target fights, but Blizzard seems to just bandaid nerf DoT classes every time they inevitably get out of hand.
    An important part of Shadow Priest's multidotting has always been the fishing for Procs. You'll put DoTs on as many targets as possible, even the ones you don't even want to kill, because multidotting always gave you something. Insanity, Orbs, Apparitions, instant Mind Spike/Mind Blast...

    Multidotting was a key to keep Voidform as long as possible back in the days. So even if your DoTs deal pitiful damage, you'll want them on as many targets as possible (until the point where DoT refreshing hinder your DPS)

  4. #84
    Herald of the Titans Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    An important part of Shadow Priest's multidotting has always been the fishing for Procs. You'll put DoTs on as many targets as possible, even the ones you don't even want to kill, because multidotting always gave you something. Insanity, Orbs, Apparitions, instant Mind Spike/Mind Blast...

    Multidotting was a key to keep Voidform as long as possible back in the days. So even if your DoTs deal pitiful damage, you'll want them on as many targets as possible (until the point where DoT refreshing hinder your DPS)
    The idea is simply to limit their damage potential so Blizzard doesn't have to bandaid nerf them when gear inevitably pushes their DPS too high. Multi-dotting should always be beneficial and part of the class, but it's part of the reason Shadow always gets out of hand. You could still fish for procs and such, but having DoTs on 4 targets wouldnt result in you doing close 350% damage you'd only be doing like 250%. Still incredibly strong and beneficial to multidot, but not as crazy.

  5. #85
    Multi-dot specs should have some of the strongest sustained cleave but some of the weakest single target damage. Specs like shadow priests and affliction warlock make no sense right now. Blizzard need to get their heads out of their arses.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Multi-dot specs should have some of the strongest sustained cleave but some of the weakest single target damage. Specs like shadow priests and affliction warlock make no sense right now. Blizzard need to get their heads out of their arses.
    The problem is that is very difficult to balance and get right.

    Historically the way that they did it was that we had a dot that could be applied to only one target, and that along with our single target spells would be tweaked up and down so that the damage never got too high or too low. But with the addition of void form and other proc-like mechanics, the formula isn't so easy as just tweaking a few damage co-efficients up or down. Now-days if you mess with them too much the difference between doing fine and completely sucking is literally a hair's breadth difference.

    Additionally I think that people are less likely to put up with their class sucking for entire tiers like in previous expansions. I imagine these days every time a class does too badly for too long, they lose another chunk of long-term customers, who never come back, due to it being an aging game.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  7. #87
    The Patient marathal's Avatar
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    I have to deal with the balancing that happens because of better players. I can't juggle the void form dance, I always make one minor misstep or find myself needing to move a split second before I would manage to get that one more DoT cast. As you said Kilee, it's a hairs breath. Shadow has always had a level of complexity, and a high skill cap, but it was always possible to be close to where you should based on the gear you had. When you factor in being just that little bit off, either from being older and slower reaction times, or as we have talked about before, input latency, add to that having non optimal gear, and you have a recipe for players getting frustrated,

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Multi-dot specs should have some of the strongest sustained cleave but some of the weakest single target damage.
    Why?

    Specs with the strongest burst aoe and sustained STACKED cleave (which is a lot more common and requires significantly less effort than proper spread target multi-dotting) are still allowed to have top single target damage.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Nospheratu View Post
    Why?

    Specs with the strongest burst aoe and sustained STACKED cleave (which is a lot more common and requires significantly less effort than proper spread target multi-dotting) are still allowed to have top single target damage.
    Because there are in general a lot of raid fights where spread target cleave is essential and specs like shadow and affliction will be way above other specs. The trade off should be lower single-target damage. Shadow Priest should not be a top spec on both fights like Zar’qul and Sivara/Behemoth.

    Ps. Other specs should not either. The whole point is that Blizzard suck at balancing, so you cannot use other specs as examples.

  10. #90
    Just look at MDI and you can see how incompetent blizzard is at balancing.

  11. #91
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Shadow is currently just fine. Is strong, but is not the best DPS, it is near the top... being able to top if well played. Period. So are many other DPS classes.

    The problem is that Blizzard doesn+t want priests to be a top DPS class, that´s what makes the difference.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by EnacheV View Post
    i go to warcrat logs, half of the fights have all top only shadow priests

    what are you complaining about lol ?

    even if they nerf it to be rock bottom from all specs in 8.3 on all fights, its still ok, as someone has to be last and you shadow priest had enough of "winning"
    So? Look at simulation reports, spriest not even top.

  13. #93
    Herald of the Titans Makabreska's Avatar
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    Shadow will be fine, with the amount of multi targets in 8.3 (and great stat scaling).
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  14. #94
    Do you people take in mind how much time it takes to multi dot? Of course multi dot should be rewarding. The thing is that Shadowpriest players have to give 200% effort to do as much damage as a hunter for example and must be perfect in rotation,be lucky in rng trinkets and have in mind that annoying mechanic to hold as much Voidform stacks as possible while trying to avoid mechanics.

  15. #95
    this above is one of the examples of pathetism

    - - - Updated - - -

    This.
    There are broken mechanics in half of the specs and they dont even care
    There are specs that zerg on almost EVERY scenario and they dont EVEN care
    There are a spec that is the punchingbag and we, the community, loves it cause its not "my" class

  16. #96
    Yeesh. I make a point of leveling one of each class to max level every expansion or two, just because. This time around, I already felt like my Shadow Priest was by far the slowest/weakest of my alts to level. It already takes forever for her to kill anything compared to all the other classes, and she dies easier. I'm surprised they're being nerfed.

  17. #97
    with the last expansion stages caster scaling/more power sources i think we will be even more strong on spread/stacked multitarget
    but maybe this hurts a bit our st
    btw why no "balancing" nerfs to other specs that are extremely broken (assuming meta and OK manage)?
    we will see
    it is meaningless to judge/draw conclusions without having touched it

  18. #98
    The nerf is completely justified. Shadow priests are currently over the top overpowered for very little effort. Even after this nerf they'll still be amazingly strong and out dps 90% of other classes.

  19. #99
    Maybe they are tuning it to the new raid - have a look at the fights and see.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Do you people take in mind how much time it takes to multi dot? Of course multi dot should be rewarding. The thing is that Shadowpriest players have to give 200% effort to do as much damage as a hunter for example and must be perfect in rotation,be lucky in rng trinkets and have in mind that annoying mechanic to hold as much Voidform stacks as possible while trying to avoid mechanics.
    You're picking a bad class to compare to.

    Shadow priest at least has the choice to pick easier ways to keep their dots rolling, through Misery (For multiple targets) or other choices. And single target wise it's a complete joke, apply once and keep void form up as much as you can and your dots will keep themselves refreshed enough basically.

    Keeping your pet at 3 stacks of Frenzy as a hunter is more frantic than that. Never mind the moment you have to change targets or move from one place to another and your pet decides to get stuck on thin air.

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